Who is the arsonist?

[Tay Sachs]

I always thought Esme did it. After all, there was that passageway between the penthouse and the Baudelaire mansion, and it's unlikely Jerome set anyone on fire.

[Beatrice Snicket]

phoebonica said:

lemonydrink said:

If people burn, how can you put them in a grave?

People who burn to death aren't usually completely incinerated. Humans just don't burn that well, so there'd probably be enough of the bodies left to give them a proper burial. Or as thistledown pointed out, you can bury ashes.

how would you know that?

[kingofvfd]

well in the 2nd book i thought it was olaf beacause as he runs away he says something like he's guilty of murder and arson,but he has burned alot more than the mansion.

[Songbird]

I was just thinking...what if it was Mr. Baudelaire? He could have found out his wife was in love with Lemony and ...well...gone off the deep end. I know there is no evidence to support this to my knowledge, but what if Beatrice's husband wasn't as good as she thought he was

[violet]

Apr 26, 2008 21:14:02 GMT -5 Songbird said:

I was just thinking...what if it was Mr. Baudelaire? He could have found out his wife was in love with Lemony and ...well...gone off the deep end. I know there is no evidence to support this to my knowledge, but what if Beatrice's husband wasn't as good as she thought he was

Maybe Count Olaf started a fight between them, Betrand thinking Beatrice loved Lemony more...then a fire started (fricton, Count Olaf doing it while they were distracted, etc)...?

[Dante]

I don't know, they'd been together at least fourteen or fifteen years. We've heard of the Baudelaire parents getting angry with their children, and even rumours that they'd killed people, but there's never any suggestion that their marriage was an unhappy one. I'd have thought if Bertrand was insanely jealous it would have been obvious before the fire. It's true, though, that we never really find out how Beatrice felt during the whole story; she turned away from Lemony in the belief that he'd become a dangerous criminal (shades of Kit and Olaf, perhaps?), and later believed he was dead, but we don't know whether she still cared for him when she found out he was alive. One presumes not; Lemony's spent years still loving Beatrice even though she was married to someone else and later dead, but Beatrice clearly didn't behave the same way. Perhaps news of Lemony's alleged crimes killed her love, and by the time she discovered she'd been wrong then she loved someone else. It's a great tragedy.

That said, if anyone could sow the seeds of doubt and envy between the Baudelaire parents, it would be Count Olaf. He's subtle when he wants to be. I don't think it's very likely, but it's up to you.

Edit: Almost ten years later, I noticed a typo. Fixed.

[Sailor Bellairs]

I dont know if you've read it but in the rare TBB there is lots of clues about who set the fire.
Especially about a drink bottle on the table and without a coaster! We know all VFD'ers always use coasters and because it is an empty drink bottle it points to Olaf.
So I figure Olaf turned up in disguise at the mansion and drank and then as he left set fire to the house. I think a person like Olaf would get a kick out of talking to the victim before he kills them.
There may even be a reference to him leaving the house and dropping something lit, I will check it and then edit my post.

[almostnearly]

Apr 26, 2008 21:14:02 GMT -5 Songbird said:

I was just thinking...what if it was Mr. Baudelaire? He could have found out his wife was in love with Lemony and ...well...gone off the deep end. I know there is no evidence to support this to my knowledge, but what if Beatrice's husband wasn't as good as she thought he was

While I don't know if Bertrand started the fire, I do think that Mr. Baudelaire was not who we thought he was and could have been capable of wanting to keep Beatrice away from Lemony if they did survive the fire.

We don't know too much about Bertrand but that prank with the elevator never seemed like something a completely nice guy would do for fun or "whimsy".

Apr 27, 2008 2:47:22 GMT -5 Dante said:

I don't know, they'd been together at least fourteen or fifteen years. We've heard of the Baudelaire parents getting angry with their children, and even rumours that they'd killed people, but there's never any suggestion that their marriage was an unhappy one. I'd have thought if Bertrand was insanely jealous it would have been obvious before the fire. It's true, though, that we never really find out how Beatrice felt during the whole story; she turned away from Lemony in the belief that he'd become a dangerous criminal (shades of Kit and Olaf, perhaps?), and later believed he was dead, but we don't know whether she still cared for him when she found out he was alive. One presumes not; Lemony's spent years still loving Beatrice even though she was married to someone else and later dead, but Beatrice clearly didn't behave the same way. Perhaps news of Lemony's alleged crimes killed her love, and by the time she discovered she'd been wrong then she loved someone else. It's a great tragedy.

That said, if anyone could sow the seeds of doubt and envy between the Baudelaire paernts, it would be Count Olaf. He's subtle when he wants to be. I don't think it's very likely, but it's up to you.

While there was no suggestion that the Baudelaires' parents marriage wasn't a happy one, I don't believe that Beatrice truly loved Bertrand. I think that she never stopped loving Lemony. If Bertrand was insanely jealous he would not have showed it until Lemony had re-entered the picture for sure. Bertrand would have known that this was his only true competition. Lemony was suspected of being dead for many years, and only finally approached Beatrice on the night of one of R's parties. He states that this was after 15 years of not having seen Beatrice. In the false R's letter to Snicket, she makes it seem like Lemony was believed to be dead until that night, despite the rumours of his activities. On that night Beatrice would have finally known that Lemony was truly alive.

I have always assumed that the theft of the sugar bowl occured after this party. Both Lemony and Beatrice seem connected to that theft. I think it is telling that Beatrice was willing to help Snicket get an object that would have made him a free man again by proving his innocence. If Lemony was a free man Beatrice could leave her husband to be with him in safety.

I don't believe that the reason Beatrice left Lemony was due to the rumours of illegal activities he supposedly had committed. I think that she seperated from Lemony because she feared for his life. Once he was killed I think she just married Bertrand to try to forget her pain. As she wrote, this was the best for which she could hope.

On the island, Olaf wanted to tell the Baudelaires certain things; secrets they seemed that they were scared to find out. I think that the major secret Olaf planned to reveal was that their mother never truly loved their father and that the marriage was an accident. This would imply that essentially the Baudelaires' existence was an accident or just another unfortunate event in the life of a man they did not know.

[Hermes]

On reflection, I'm worried about a couple of aspects of this.

I think Lemony was captured by his enemies at the masked ball - this is perhaps clearest in 13 Shocking Secrets, but I think the Duchess's letter in TUA implies it as well. So I don't think he can have been stealing sugar bowls with Beatrice after that.

Also, I don't think the Duchess believed he was dead before the masked ball - after all, she invited him to it. Certainly her letter (if it is indeed hers) implies she thought he was dead until she received a message from him, but I take that to have been written some years later, after the announcement of his death in the Daily Punctilio (which was written when he had already begun to publish ASOUE). It's true he had also been believed dead earlier, when Bertrand and Beatrice were on the island; but his death seems to have been announced several times (there's a line in TE which suggests this).

None of this rules out that Lemony approaching Beatrice at the masked ball may have made Bertrand jealous, I guess.

[almostnearly]

I don't know if the Duchess invited Lemony to that ball or he sneaked in, hence his capture by the palace guards. It is referenced as being the palace guards in TAA and not his enemies, although I doubt that Lemony would have remained captured even by his enemies for too long. The letter in the Unauthorized Autobiography where Lemony says he is going to try to attend a masked ball by R is hinted to have been one held after TRR.

After the masked ball where Lemony and Beatrice were momentarily reunited there would have been plenty of time to steal one sugar bowl. All that would have been needed was one afternoon tea party with Esme Squalor.

Yes, throughout the books it is hinted that Lemony being alive or dead was a constant question. This means that Beatrice would not have been sure he was alive until that masked ball. Lemony had been forbidden to speak to her before that. She could have been content with Bertrand until she was sure that Lemony was alive, innocent and possibly freed with her help.

[Hermes]

This is really ingenious - I don't know if I can make any holes in it. Let's see.

Yes, the description of the masked ball in TAA certainly makes it sound as if he was there uninvited. It also looks as if the palace guards worked for the Duchess. But this doesn't fit together too well with the later discovery that the Duchess was a friend of his. Her letter in TUA (and even if it isn't actually her letter, most of what it says is probably true, to make the deception work) sounds as though she hasn't seen him since the ball and so didn't know if he was alive, which is odd if he was captured on her orders. I suspect a change in Handler's plans here.

Did B know L was alive? I find it rather hard to believe she didn't; yes, he was forbidden to speak to her, but he must have been in contact, some of the time, with members of VFD who could tell her (his time on the Queequeg, for instance, must fit into the period of their separation). One point people have made is that if she still thought he was dead, Klaus should have been called Lemony.

Putting the theft of the sugar bowl just before the fire certainly helps with some problems (though I don't think there's any way of making everything that's said about the sugar bowl come out consistent). I take it they snuck into this party as well? It's not likely, I'd have thought, that Esme would invite them (her links with Olaf go a long way back).

[violetbaudelaire51]

I disagree and think it was Count Olaf. In TE he doesn't necessarily deny it.
Also, at the masquerade ball that Lemony sneaks into to tell Beatrice something important. he says "Count Olaf is-" but we don't know what. i think he told her that Count Olaf was a villain.
I think not many people knew that Count Olaf was a villain except for Lemony because he was being framed for Olaf's crimes. But we also know from TAA that Count Olaf must have used a different disguise/name when commiting each crime so no one was positive. Beatrice was in one of Count Olaf's plays and i'm not sure that would be the case if she knew Count Olaf switched sides.
I noticed Jerome Squalor, Uncle Monty, and Aunt Josephine, who are all members of the organization, didn't seem to know who Count Olaf was prior to the Baudelaire's.
And in TBBRE it says that the Baudelaire's parents recieved a visitor who was most likely Count Olaf because of the ring left on the table. It always seemed odd to me that if Count Olaf was the visitor, why would they let him go in their home or meet with them because clearly it had been arranged since they rushed the Baudelaire's out of the house.
Also the secret passageway leads to the penthouse so Esme and Count Olaf could have been working together since they both hated the Baudelaire's parents for many reasons. I found out that Count Olaf's parents owned the penthouse before they died so he probably knew the building very well. Count Olaf probably lent it to Esme and Jerome as a 'wedding gift' or as a favor with only Esme aware of that. it seemed the perfect location for them to set the fire from.
Bertrand may have been the criminal too, after all, it was Mr. Baudelaire's special bottle of brandy that left a ring on the table. But maybe he changed sides and was helping Esme and Count Olaf.
I don't think it could have been Lemony because he was trying to warn her and why would he murder Beatrice even if he might have been a little heartbroken and jealous? I just don't think he would be capable of such an awful thing. Also, it isn't like Lemony to leave a ring on a table.

[Dante]

Where did you hear that Olaf 's family owned the 667 Dark Avenue penthouse? I don't think that's actually in the books, although it would certainly be an interesting detail. Given that Esmé almost certainly married Jerome to gain access to the penthouse and its secret passage, though, then it would seem a rather redundant plan if Olaf controlled it all along.

[Strangely]

If I remember correctly TUA mentioned that Jerome bought the building, so it seems unlikely that Count Olaf controlled it. As for Aunt Josephine and Uncle Monty not even knowing who Count Olaf was is perhaps the result of Daniel Handler not writing in VFD until later, remember many plot points have changed throughout the series or changed completely (For instance in TSS it's implied Kit is alive, but as revealed in TE she died).

I honestly thought that Count Olaf set the fire, but after his remarks in TE I have a hard time believing it's that simple. He may have had a hand in it, but I'm betting there's more to it. As for the mysterious visitor the morning of the fire I'm doubting it was Olaf, after all the Baudelaire parents would never allow him inside and knowing him so well they would have seen through any disguise. As for the no coaster thing I always tend to interpret that as the mark of a villain, not necessarily the mark of Olaf.

[violetbaudelaire51]

Where did you hear that Olaf 's family owned the 667 Dark Avenue penthouse? I don't think that's actually in the books, although it would certainly be an interesting detail. Given that Esmé almost certainly married Jerome to gain access to the penthouse and its secret passage, though, then it would seem a rather redundant plan if Olaf controlled it all along.

I don't remember where i found it exactly, but it was on the internet. So it may not be true but it makes a lot of sense because Olaf seemed to know the secret passage well.

If I remember correctly TUA mentioned that Jerome bought the building, so it seems unlikely that Count Olaf controlled it.

I don't think Count Olaf controlled it, but his parents lived in it, particularily his mother, Olustun Lefter Abbie Ferdent (initials spell OLAF) before Esme and Jerome. As mentioned in TBBRE, Lemony wrote, p. 8, "Also, I have reason to believe that the O that appears on the official fire department insignia stands instead for a person’s name." Many people may have jumped to the conclusion that it was the Olaf that we are familiar with but it could stand for one of Olaf's parents names because again they both had Olaf in their name.

In TEE when Esme and Jerome are talking to the Baudelaire's they mention that they just moved into the building recently. Also Olaf told Esme to marry Jerome in order to gain access to the 677 penthouse because he knew about the secret passage from his mother and he probably knew about the significance of the roof, that way they could control that too.

As for Aunt Josephine and Uncle Monty not even knowing who Count Olaf was is perhaps the result of Daniel Handler not writing in VFD until later, remember many plot points have changed throughout the series or changed completely (For instance in TSS it's implied Kit is alive, but as revealed in TE she died).

Maybe, but Jerome didn't know who Count Olaf was and TEE was written after the secret of VFD became known to the Baudelaire's and the readers. And later Jerome appeared in TPP as a volunteer and he obviously was a volunteer earlier than TEE because he was friends with Jacques Snicket, Beatrice Baudelaire, and probably many other volunteers. I know the Denouements knew that Olaf was a villain but that was because Dewey went around taking all of those notes. Also, Lemony wrote TSS before Kit died.
And all of the fires Olaf started were blamed on Lemony and there don't appear to be many articles in old newspapers blaming Count Olaf specifically for any crimes as he used a different name everytime. And Count Olaf's parents are both Olaf just like him. His father was Pierre Olaf and his mother's initials spelled OLAF so the Baudelaire's parents may have mistaken some of the crimes as being commited by Olaf's parents rather than the Olaf that we know.

As for the mysterious visitor the morning of the fire I'm doubting it was Olaf, after all the Baudelaire parents would never allow him inside and knowing him so well they would have seen through any disguise. As for the no coaster thing I always tend to interpret that as the mark of a villain, not necessarily the mark of Olaf.

Something always interested me about Olaf's parents' death though because it's said to have happened a little bit before the fire occured but in TPP it says the poison darts left Olaf an orphan. Don't they usually just refer to children as orphans? And Olaf is well into his forties.

Anyways, i know the ring is the mark of all villains and not just Olaf but who else could it be then? Obviously there was some sort of villain who was visiting them that day and since they rushed the Baudelaire's out of the house that morning it further proves that it was a villain. So even if they did know he was a villain, it seems they let him (or whoever it was) in despite that. It could've been the sinister duo but i honestly don't think they were there because they really didn't have a big enough motive for setting the fire other than that they were on opposite sides of the schism.
In The Dismal Dinner, Lemony describes one of the occasions in which the family was having a dinner party. it wasn't too far away from the day of the fire and Sunny swear she saw someone who was described similarily to Count Olaf peering through the window at them in the dining room. That is another hint that could be proof that he did it. Why else would he be there?

And maybe the parents weren't actually killed by burning alive. Many criminals use fire as a way to destroy evidence much like Count Olaf. Also you'll recall in TBBRE the Royal Gardens had been burned down recently (also to destroy evidence) and in the gardens had been a poisonous plant that had been extracted. It was most likely an act of villainy and arson as Jacques Snicket reported in the Daily Punctilio. I suspect that Count Olaf set that fire and took the plant. When he visited the Baudelaire's parents he could've stuck the poison in their beverages like Bertrand's brandy or if the plant was poisonous like the Medusoid Mycellium, they would've been affected as soon as he entered. Afterall, the parents killed Count Olaf's parents using poison darts. Olaf would probably get a thrill out of using the same kind of weapon to kill them. After the parents were dead, he set the fire and escaped through the tunnel connecting to the penthouse.

Of course, the ring, like i said, could have been made by Bertrand too since it was his fancy bottle of brandy. But if it was him, then why were they having a business meeting the same day?

Also, for both theories, brandy is a very flammable alcoholic drink at 60% ethanol, so it could easily start a fire if poured on a furnace or something with intense heat. Also Lemony tells us that bad weather makes it hard for arsonists to start fires which aggravates them and makes them bang their beverages against unprotected wooden tables like the one in the Baudelaire's mansion. This implies that the fire must have started by someone inside the house.
i looked up some information about brandy when i read TBBRE and found that it is very sensitive to heat and if it is exposed to excessive heat, the aroma becomes very intense. If Olaf or Bertrand had the bottle in their hands and banged on the table with it which would create friction, the bottle would probably shatter or crack so the now heated liquid would pour onto the wooden table and start a fire as the table was unprotected. Bertrand and Olaf would probably both understand how heat effects brandy since Olaf probably likes to play with flammable chemicals and Bertrand seems to enjoy drinking brandy.

It may not have been only Olaf who did it and he may have had help but he definitely had some part in it. Revenge is his way of dealing with things. But maybe the reason why Olaf said the Baudelaire's knew nothing was because the fire was unintentional. Also, we have no idea what exchanges could've been made during the parents important meeting. We don't really know a lot about why they were meeting anyone.

Reason for Editing: edits