jedrial
Bewildered Beginner
Posts: 5
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Post by jedrial on Oct 30, 2006 10:33:42 GMT -5
...is Lemony Snicket noble? if he isn't it would explane stuff, like why Beatrice didn't marry him and why she says that Lemonys accounts are wrong. REMBER LEMONY WROTE THE SIRES SO HE CAN WRITE WHAT EVER HE WANTS.....including him saying he is noble. please please please give me feedback So I’m unsure whether to post this in the “The End” discussion thread or here, as it relates to both, but mostly to TBL. I’ve been thinking about the Anagram that the letters are supposed to make, and the fact that we were instructed to arrange them, and rearrange them. I believe that the two anagrams are meant to be put together to make one clue or thought. So here is the theory: I’ve come across three possible solutions for the anagram: Beatrice sank A nicer basket A brae Snicket I think that the first solution and the last solution should be put together to read, “A brae Snicket sank Beatrice”. So why would Lemony write an anagram that implicates himself (or another Snicket?) in a crime. The answer: The Beatrice Letters were not written by (compiled by) Snicket. Whoever compiled the letters has a definite message to give out – using the anagram. So they must have gone through a large amount of letters trying to find letters that have the right letters (sorry about so many letters). We know that in the last letter to the editor, the author of TBL says that he/she can’t sign her name because it is too dangerous, but that has never stopped Snicket before. It makes more sense to say that someone else published TBL under the name of Snicket and couldn’t sign because she is not Snicket. I believe that B2 compiled TBL and send them to Snicket’s editor so they would be published. After the end of The End, the boat sank (thus the picture of the boat in the poster – Violet’s ribbon, Sunny’s Whisk that she received in The End, and Klaus’s glasses that were definitely not broken in The End). At least Beatrice survived as well as Sunny (remember the Radio Program). It might also have been the time when B2 saved Klaus, who knows. They were afterwords separated and LS started to publish ASOUE. B2, knowing that LS’s account is wrong and misleading is trying to confront him about it – maybe as a trap (a stretch?), but LS doesn’t want to meet her. So she decides that she needs to publish the truth. The best audience is ASOUE readers, so she needs LS’s publisher. But the publisher would publish anything that would damage LS, so she needs to hide the message. She comes up with the Anagram “A brae Snicket sank Beatrice” and hides it in TBL. “The schism turned brother against brother” and “Lemony Snicket is not who we think he is”. There is a lot more to the story of ASOUE and B2 is trying to tell us that. (note that this would give TBL a double meaning as well – very Snicketish – the letters are to B1 and from B2 AND the letters for the Anagram are from B2 – they are Beatrice’s letters). It is a bit far fetched and there may be more evidence to support it. I would love to hear what other’s have to say about this. In the end, it would be a great way for DH to write a follow up series written by BB or something like that on what really happened. Here’s to hoping.
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Post by jman on Nov 18, 2006 10:01:33 GMT -5
I LOVE this theory. My dad and I (since TPP) have thought that LS is a psychopath or a criminal, for many of the reasons that you have listed.
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U T O P I A
Catastrophic Captain
And in the icy silence of the tomb, so haunt thy days and chill thy dreaming nights.
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Post by U T O P I A on Nov 18, 2006 15:33:07 GMT -5
I also LOVE his/her theory, it's really brilliantly thought out. It does kinda make sense that Lemony was a homicidal maniac... (would be a fantastic twist that could be used in "Horseradish").
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noble
Reptile Researcher
Posts: 14
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Post by noble on Nov 19, 2006 3:56:57 GMT -5
Why Thank you my fellow reaschers! With all this support i feel like i've been given a wedding ring. Lemony, however, will probaly never reveal this secret. He isn't or is, that is probably the fartherst we'll get on this secret. Evil or good. you decide. My doorbell rings, I must go.
P.S. for those who cant find the message in my post....LOOK AT THE RINGS!!!! Oh and also i'm a guy
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jedrial
Bewildered Beginner
Posts: 5
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Post by jedrial on Nov 20, 2006 19:49:46 GMT -5
Thanks Jman and Utopia. I'm sorry to not have joined the conversation until now (seeing as it has died down to a fizzle). I didn't get TBL until right before The End came out, so by the time I was done reading all the posts on this thread, everyone seemed to have moved over to TE thread.
I think that questioning LS's authenticity will make for a really interesting read of all the books. I hope to start at BB (I went out and got the Rare Edition, which for anyone reading is still available through Barnes and Noble online) and will read through everything keeping in mind the theories mentioned in this thread.
I would love to hear any other support or disent on the idea that 1 - LS is not the virtuous person we are meant to think (or perhaps the person we simply assumed he was - it is interesting that in ASOUE, people went from being Black and White to various shades of grey) 2 - Whether the Younger Beatrice might have sent out the letters.
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Post by RockSunner on Nov 21, 2006 7:27:30 GMT -5
I haven't written in on this theory because I think it has very little to recommend it. The Beatrice letters have the usual notes to the editor in Snicket style. If they were collected by an enemy of his in order to implicate him, is that fuzzy anagram "a brae Snicket sunk Beatrice" the best they could do? Where is the evidence in the letters themselves?
It's fine to consider Lemony Snicket an unreliable narrator and speculate on how many details he got wrong. But remember that his writings are the only thing we have to go on about that world. It ruins the books to completely invalidate him.
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jedrial
Bewildered Beginner
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Post by jedrial on Nov 21, 2006 15:29:10 GMT -5
Remember that whoever compiled the letters are looking in the past (beyond the sinking of Beatrice) in order to get a message out, so it would impossible to implicate Snicket in a crime that he had not yet committed.
As to whether that was "the best they could do", the idea is that because the compiled letters were sent to Snicket's editor, he or she couldn't do anything directly that would implicate Snicket. (I personally thought, "A Brae Snicket Sunk Beatrice" is much more informative than just "Beatrice Sunk" - if that's the best that Snicket could do).
I don't think that a theory of this nature ruins the books (as they are still extremely entertaining in any light), but calls into question the motive of the author.
On a side note, if Snicket did compile TBL, and the correct reading of the Anagram is "Beatrice Sank", I thought that perhaps that was his way of ending The End on a down note. In The End, there is a glimmer of optimism and Hope that wouldn't have gone over well for the casual reading public if it had been shattered by another tragedy. This may have been Snicket's way of closing the story with one last unfortunate event (but then we are left to wonder that if Sunny is still alive, as her radio program suggests, what might have happened to Klaus and Violet).
Sorry for the long post.
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Post by Dante on Nov 21, 2006 16:01:39 GMT -5
Personally, I felt that TBL was one of the most optimistic books in the series, with quotations like "even in the darkest of ashes eventually something can grow" and "Strange as it may seem, I still hope for the best." The final calling card from young Beatrice does have some fairly pessimistic implications, though, if you think it through - or does if you've interpreted it as I have, and I've yet to see anyone do so, strangely.
(Another thought I've had recently is that young Beatrice shares much in common with we fans of the series - trails Snicket around, constantly asking him questions about the past and about his books... Although of course, young Beatrice never heard the full story from the Baudelaires, according to The End, so naturally the truth would confuse her for different reasons than it confused us.)
And, since I'm pretty sure I've yet to post here, I should note that I really enjoyed all the parallels in TBL, both internally and between it and The End - the recurrence of ideas, places, phrases, ideas of places and phrases, and even of colours (the flipping of the colours on the calling cards and their backings, for example, although one can't be sure whether Handler came up with that or the HC crew - on which note I should probably add that I think there may have only been one anagram intended and several red herring alternatives planted within it (by careful wording of the anagram and writing of the book), given from the fact that Snicket's letter to the editor appears to be punning on letters and letters again rather than referring exclusively to the anagram, and since I think Handler probably originally intended the hidden alphabet letters and their anagram to be, well, hidden, rather than enormous and punched-out as well).
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jedrial
Bewildered Beginner
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Post by jedrial on Nov 21, 2006 17:11:37 GMT -5
I agree that TBL are very optimistic (Thanks for putting in the quotes – they are beautiful thoughts). And as one of the main themes of the books seems to be hope, I think it very appropriate that the last couple of books (TE and TBL) seem to build on that hope up. But placed against the background of a very bleak poster and Anagram (assuming that at least Beatrice Sank is the intended – or one of the intended Anagrams) I think it very possible that Handler intentionally threw that hope into question. (It is a very strong contrast).
I would be interested, Dante, in your views on the Anagram (which words do you think are the right set of words and what do you think they imply). I think the strongest candidate would use the word Beatrice (given the poster). There is no other word that comes from the remaining four letters. It is possible that Handler then found out that the same letters could be used to make, “A Brae Snicket”. I think it is more than just a coincidence that this is the first book that I am aware of that the word “Brae” comes out. He would have to introduce the word in order for people to get the anagram (and have it make sense). The second Anagram “A Brae Snicket” doesn’t make any sense on its own, and although it is possible that he just put Brae in TBL so people would pick up on a Red Herring, I thought it would be more interesting (an ingenious of Handler) to take two readings of the same Anagram to make an actual complete thought. I am by no means wedded to this idea, but thought it would be interesting if it actually was the case that this is what Handler meant.
The other question I have is Why go through the trouble of having a poster with letters placed in particular parts on it unless it had some kind of meaning (I have yet to discover any meaning related to the placement of the letters). It may be that Snicket gives us some more to work on in Horseradish, but as TBL was meant to be Mysteriously Linked to the 13th book, I wouldn’t hold out for much.
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Post by RockSunner on Nov 21, 2006 23:34:02 GMT -5
The final calling card from young Beatrice does have some fairly pessimistic implications, though, if you think it through - or does if you've interpreted it as I have, and I've yet to see anyone do so, strangely. I'm curious what your pessimistic interpretation is. I would see a pessimistic message in the final calling card if it were torn in half. Since it isn't , I believe Lemony finally responded to BB2 and helped her. The very existence of TBL, containing both letters from Lemony (some taken from his office by BB2) and letters from her (some kept by Lemony) also suggests they got together. On the other hand, in TE he writes that there are some of the B's secrets she will never know. This suggests she never found them again, or that she died.
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noble
Reptile Researcher
Posts: 14
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Post by noble on Nov 22, 2006 0:51:12 GMT -5
Nothing is pessimistic in ASoUE, trust me. Ok fellow reserchers i reread ALL OF ASoUE and i've got another"___ is evil" theroy. IF Lemon Snicket isnt evil his publisher could be the evil ones. Publisher/editor would messes up ASoUE so we dont get the very important parts. Its just another theroy like my "LS is evil" theroy but it makes sense when you think about it.....i pray Daniel dosnt end it here and leave us un a worlds of "ifs"....PRAY WITH ME!!!!
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Post by Phoebonica on Nov 22, 2006 6:27:46 GMT -5
The discussion of the anagrams made me realise something that's probably really obvious, so if anyone's pointed this out already, please tell me. But I don't remember seeing it before. "Beatrice sank" and "A Snicket brae", which seem to be the two most obvious anagrams, are illustrated on the poster. The wreck of the Beatrice on one side, and the cave Lemony was living in on the other. (ETA why I found that significant: it seems to indicate that those are the "intended" messages, and the others are coincidences or red herrings. Although that might be what they want us to think... )
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jedrial
Bewildered Beginner
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Post by jedrial on Nov 22, 2006 10:10:22 GMT -5
I'm curious what your pessimistic interpretation is. The pessimistic interpretation comes from reading TBL and TE together. So in TE, we see the Baudelaires sailing off into the sunset, full of hope for things to come. But at the end of TBL, we see a boat that's been torn to pieces and an Anagram that says, "Beatrice Sank" implying that after they left the island, the ship sank (the unfortunate events continue, despite Olaf's demise). As to the Evil Editor theory, I'm not sure why Snicket would continue to submit his work to the same editor if he saw that what he was submitting was being manipulated and changed. Lastly, I agree with Phoebonica that the two Anagrams mentioned in the post above are likely the intended Anagrams. My question is whether they were meant to be read together ("A Brae Snicket" is interesting as an anagram, but doesn't really present a complete thought, unless it's simply meant to imply that Snicket is in a cave collecting clues to the Baudelaires' fate). I hope that materials emerge that prove me wrong definitively, as I would like to believe that Snicket is the virtuous researcher I initially assumed him to be, but for the time being, I think I will continue to read with a healthy bit of suspicion. "Lemony Snicket is not who you think he is"
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Post by Dante on Nov 22, 2006 11:37:54 GMT -5
I think "Lemony Snicket is not who you think he is" was more just an allusion to the most recent book, TPP, and an attempt to keep a bit more mystery about the character. That's important, I feel, as we actually know quite a lot about Lemony, especially when contrasted against what we know about Jacques, for example. I would be interested, Dante, in your views on the Anagram (which words do you think are the right set of words and what do you think they imply). I think the strongest candidate would use the word Beatrice (given the poster). There is no other word that comes from the remaining four letters. It is possible that Handler then found out that the same letters could be used to make, “A Brae Snicket”. I think it is more than just a coincidence that this is the first book that I am aware of that the word “Brae” comes out. He would have to introduce the word in order for people to get the anagram (and have it make sense). The second Anagram “A Brae Snicket” doesn’t make any sense on its own, and although it is possible that he just put Brae in TBL so people would pick up on a Red Herring, I thought it would be more interesting (an ingenious of Handler) to take two readings of the same Anagram to make an actual complete thought. I am by no means wedded to this idea, but thought it would be interesting if it actually was the case that this is what Handler meant. I think that "BEATRICE SANK" is the only anagram that can be considered fully canonical. As you noted, "A BRAE SNICKET" doesn't mean anything, and I'd be tempted to view it as a red herring, and while one other I've heard, "BEAR A SNICKET" (a reference to Kit's daughter) is in some ways tempting, I'm not entirely sure if two anagrams were intended. I also don't think LS should be included in an attempt to make an anagram - young Beatrice may include those, but I think that was for the purpose of more puns, and the letters are missing, rather than present, from Lemony's letter to the editor (their being punched out on the preceding page is just a neat little visual, I think). In any case, the suggestion I've seen for that, SNICKET BRAE-LASS, has an extra S and wouldn't work. I don't regard any material in TBL except for the pure text itself as canonical (and even then, I don't include the typos, except for the intended "Deaf" one, as I think TBL was probably put together by the same people who made up the Shocking Secrets document, which also misspelt "Denouement" and included the nonsensical character chart - and there have been Sebald Code mistakes in the U.A. and TPP as well), as the idea to make it into a more realistic set of documents was apparently entirely HC's idea. I have the same concerns about the poster - while one side obviously pertains to the anagram (and, I feel, defeats the purpose by making it too obvious, although I also feel the punch-out letters were superfluous and made it too obvious), I think the two sides pertain to the two writers rather than two solutions. Beatrice is obviously associated with the ship that sank that she was on when she sank, and Lemony is associated with the cave because he's the brae-man (although not in the play, but in the reality the play was based on). So I'd be very unsure about there being a second anagram, especially one that doesn't pass on a coherent message. I should note that the Egmont edition of TBL says " Contains a clue to Book the Thirteenth." "A" clue. I accept, though, that Egmont is an indirect publisher of aSoUE and so not as reliable. I don't think that the placement of the letters in relation to the poster has any meaning - they just took interesting parts of the poster that made a good iconic image, so that one slowly builds up a sinister picture. I highly doubt Handler had much to do with the punch-out letters but merely intended the letters to be hidden in the letters themselves, and I highly doubt he had much to do with creating the poster (I once read an article where he explained he had little choice in the illustrations of the books, and even the clues in the last pictures could have been drawn from the Editor letters up to THH, although there could well have been some interaction there), and, by extension, I don't believe he'd have had much to do with where on the poster the letters are placed. And if nobody's come up with a meaningful explanation of what the letters mean when placed on the poster, that probably means there isn't one. In many ways, aSoUE is quite simple - there's a reason why the Sebald Code is always circled. (You may argue Beatrice's letter from the braes, but I think that was to show that there was more said there for her to hear, but she obviously couldn't have learnt the Sebald Code at the time.) Overall, you'll have picked up that I'm quite cynical as to the amount of analysis one should perform on TBL. I think there's been a lot of overinterpretation (and elsewhere as well). If you can come up with a perfect unified theory that has a second anagram that works as well as BEATRICE SANK, or if you can get Handler himself to say that I'm wrong, then that'd be great and I'd concede. But for now, I'm afraid I'm an advocate of a minimalist interpretation. (Also, I personally don't believe, despite the name, that Horseradish is set to be another tie-in; it sounds to me more like Snicket's other work. In addition, I think that for Lemony Snicket to carry on as the same character indefinitely, as an author of children's fiction in place of Daniel Handler, making him turn out to be a murderous psychopath wouldn't be a very good idea. I had the same argument for why he wouldn't die in the last book, and lo and behold, he didn't, and he's writing other books.) I'm curious what your pessimistic interpretation is. I don't believe the calling card was compatible or directly followed on, in tone, style, or situation, with Beatrice's previous letter to Lemony. That letter had an air of finality about it quite different to the almost casual tone of the calling card, which could easily be about something else or to someone else. The calling card shares much in common with the calling card Lemony sent Beatrice when they were children (note the flipped colour scheme from red on white to white on red - they're parallels, like much else in The End and in TBL). Combined with the fact that young Beatrice shares several qualities with Lemony himself, and the fact that many individuals have the same initials, and (to a lesser extent) the fact that we were promised an unhappily ever after... I think young Beatrice has developed a habit of drinking root beer floats at the café, and, while there, found herself quite impressed with another young lad of about the same age as her, and that maybe they'll start to spend a lot of time together, and that this will lead to an unfortunate event where she'll never be happy again. She's the Lemony Snicket figure of the future, the same names recurring again and again through time. The cycle of misfortune goes on, forever. The End. How's that for pessimism?
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Post by thedoctororwell on Nov 22, 2006 15:52:27 GMT -5
That sure was an excellent analysis, Dante ! Thank you so much ! I personnally think that the two anagrams are cannon : 1) The books contain letters from Snicket and letters from Béatrice. Is it truly a coincidence if you can both spell "Béatrice" and "Snicket" with the punch-out letters ? 2) Each anagram corresponds to one side of the Poster. "Béatrice sank" refers to the boat side, and "A Snicket Brae" refers to the cave where Snicket spent some weeks as a "brae-man," as said in the letters. But "Bear a Snicket" could be cannon too ! Well, I need help now. Why did exactly Béatrice refuse to marry Lemony ? 1) Because actually she only thought him as a friend, and was so embarassed when he gave him the ring that she didn't feel brave enough to refuse directly ? She would have written the letter because she couldn't say it in front of him. 2) Because she knew she hadn't enough courage to marry someone which was on the run and accused of a variety of crimes, even if she perfectly knew he was innocent ? She would have stopped their marriage because she wanted a safer education for her potential children. 3) Because she was in love with someone else ? (same justification as the first possibility) But who ? Olaf or Bertrand ? 4) Because she was involved in a very complicated plan involving VFD and a false betraying ? My opinion is that she refused the marriage because she was pretending to be a bad VFDer and was part of Olaf's henchmen, but actually was giving away informations to the good VFDers as a spy ? This betraying was in fact planned all along with some good VFDers, and she tried to reveal it to Lemony in the sonnet before her false betraying. I think that she was trying to seduce Olaf in order to manipulate him, but he discovered her true plan and she had to run away. There's also a possibility that Olaf wanted to manipulate her in order to hurt her family, because he knew she had killed his parents. Eventually she refused to explain her motivations to Lemony because it was too dangerous and she didn't want to break his heart. She prefered to say she didn't love him anymore in order to protect him, but he misinterpreted her, and this later provoqued the infamous masked ball incident ("I told her what I had tried to tell her for more than fifteen years : Béatrice, Count Olaf is/") Duuuh, I'm far too delusional with this. I tried to connect TBL with some documents from LSUA... But it doesn't make sense ! It's like these two books talk about two different versions of the plot ! Somebody help me !
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