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Post by redwine with valium on Sept 23, 2004 21:23:40 GMT -5
Yes, I agree that actions are important. I mean, would a true Christian beat people and such? No. They may pretend to be Christians, but their actions show otherwise.
Now, to make it more confusing: Actions do not determine whether we go to heaven or hell. (Martin Luther complained about this in his attempted reform of the Catholic church.) Faith in God is what determines your after-life destination. But still, as I said, actions still tend to indicate belief. And then we throw forgiveness in. God will forgive anyone who TRULY repents. As in, never commits the sin again, since they are so sorry they did it. Make sense?
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Post by embah on Sept 23, 2004 21:42:10 GMT -5
yeah, but if the person did something less offensive, like stole some food or clothes because they were desperate, then i think, if they were truly sorry afterwards, then god would forgive them.
i was reading a book the other day about true crimes, and one story (in 1889 i think ) in it was about some guy, i think his name was john lee or something like that, and apparently he murdered someone but was convicted merely on circumstantial evidence (not definite evidence) and when he was about to be hanged and the trap door thingy was pressed, it didn't open, they tried and tried, but it wouldn't work, so they tested it with a weighty bag of rocks or something and tried it and it worked, so they put john back on it, but it didn't work for him. they kept him in jail overnight and tested it and even did a thorough search for anything wrong with it but couldn't find any, so the next day they tried it again, and it didn't work! so instead of death, he was put in jail for life, but apparently got out after a few years. alot of people thought that he was spared because he was innocent and god was watching over him.
so i think, that in this case, whether he did commit murder or not, god did forgive him.
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Post by Whales on Sept 24, 2004 5:30:19 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, there were a lot of mitigating circumstances to that story and it's been agreed that the door jammed up due to moisture.
As Soy said, the 'words of God' etc. were probably added later to add more credibility to Jesus' teaching. I doubt Jesus himself would have tried to fool people into believing that they actually happened, and probably the Bible writers themselves didn't expect people to take it completely literally but as it's such an old document, the years have warped people's perceptions of it.
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Post by embah on Sept 24, 2004 5:45:47 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, there were a lot of mitigating circumstances to that story and it's been agreed that the door jammed up due to moisture. quote] i haven't heard that, but if that's the case, how do you explain the fact that they tested it numerous times and found it was working? it's just each time john was put on it it wouldn't work.
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Post by Soidanae on Sept 24, 2004 16:01:45 GMT -5
Now, to make it more confusing: Actions do not determine whether we go to heaven or hell. (Martin Luther complained about this in his attempted reform of the Catholic church.) Faith in God is what determines your after-life destination. But still, as I said, actions still tend to indicate belief. And then we throw forgiveness in. God will forgive anyone who TRULY repents. As in, never commits the sin again, since they are so sorry they did it. Make sense? Yes, it does. I just find it extremely humorous that Judaism, from which grew Christianity (Jesus was a Jew), makes it a very clear point that faith is not what matters. All you need to do is follow the laws of the Torah faithfully, and you will go on into heaven.
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Post by redwine with valium on Sept 24, 2004 21:33:55 GMT -5
Yes, it does. I just find it extremely humorous that Judaism, from which grew Christianity (Jesus was a Jew), makes it a very clear point that faith is not what matters. All you need to do is follow the laws of the Torah faithfully, and you will go on into heaven. Yes, I know Jesus was a Jew. I'm the resident theoligist, apparently . And that was one of the many problems Jesus and later Christians had with Judaism; after all, if we agreed with Judaism about everything, we wouldn't be a seperate religion would we?
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Post by redwine with valium on Sept 24, 2004 21:35:47 GMT -5
As Soy said, the 'words of God' etc. were probably added later to add more credibility to Jesus' teaching. I doubt Jesus himself would have tried to fool people into believing that they actually happened, and probably the Bible writers themselves didn't expect people to take it completely literally but as it's such an old document, the years have warped people's perceptions of it. But the Orthodox church's teachings are based on many writings and teachings dating back to people who actually knew Jesus. Their perception was not "warped by years." I agree that some new age religions do have a rather warped perception of the Bible, but that's because that's the only document they look at; they don't take it in a historical context. The Orthodox do.
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Post by Soidanae on Sept 24, 2004 21:37:26 GMT -5
Still, propaganda was an effective tool even then.
As a side quesiton I've yet to figure out whether you're actually Orthodox/Catholic or Protestant....or Fundamentalist...
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Post by redwine with valium on Sept 24, 2004 22:08:14 GMT -5
Still, propaganda was an effective tool even then. As a side quesiton I've yet to figure out whether you're actually Orthodox/Catholic or Protestant....or Fundamentalist... Really? I thought I did make that clear, my mistake. I am a member of the Greek Orthodox church. And before someone asks if I worship Greek gods (I've been asked this before), the Greek in Greek Orthodox comes from the fact that we are lead by the patriarch in Greece. Each branch of the Orthodox church is headed by a patriarch in each country, and each of these patriarchs is equal in power to each other (so we don't have one big Pope guy). The Orthodox church is the oldest Christian church, and we've changed so little that we actually have history classes come to see our Sunday service. But we are adaptable enough to survive and grow, and we are currently the 2nd largest Christian denomination. I could continue, but you're probably bored already. About propaganda: Many of the authors of these writings were killed or severely persecuted for their beliefs and teachings. What would their motivation be, if just to spread a lie? Because many of these people knew Jesus and would know if what they said was true or not.
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Post by Soidanae on Sept 25, 2004 8:41:29 GMT -5
Actually, it doesn't bore me at all. I prefer knowing things to not knowing.
And their motivation wasn't to spread a lie-their motivation would have been to spread the word of Christ, who preached all these beautiful and wonderful ideas on how to live a life, on what was good and what was bad...
But seriously, who'd listen to some son of a carpenter and a teenager, unless he was the son of God?
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Post by redwine with valium on Sept 25, 2004 21:54:07 GMT -5
Actually, it doesn't bore me at all. I prefer knowing things to not knowing. And their motivation wasn't to spread a lie-their motivation would have been to spread the word of Christ, who preached all these beautiful and wonderful ideas on how to live a life, on what was good and what was bad... But seriously, who'd listen to some son of a carpenter and a teenager, unless he was the son of God? If he wasn't the Son of God, where did he get all these big ideas? The son of a carpenter wouldn't have much education, and certainly no philosophy, would he?
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Post by Soidanae on Sept 25, 2004 22:14:45 GMT -5
Lack of education does not prevent thinking. Lack of thinking does not prevent education.
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Post by redwine with valium on Sept 25, 2004 22:19:25 GMT -5
Lack of education does not prevent thinking. Lack of thinking does not prevent education. I dunno about that second statement. But I mean, he had some pretty grand ideas for his time. Did they just come to him some night over dinner or something?
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Post by Soidanae on Sept 25, 2004 22:24:37 GMT -5
Or perhaps he walked around quite a lot, saw what was wrong with the world and so forth.
And trust me. Some of the teachers out there...
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Post by Whales on Sept 26, 2004 4:36:41 GMT -5
But the Orthodox church's teachings are based on many writings and teachings dating back to people who actually knew Jesus. Their perception was not "warped by years." I agree that some new age religions do have a rather warped perception of the Bible, but that's because that's the only document they look at; they don't take it in a historical context. The Orthodox do. I'm not saying it was the writers whose views were warped. I think that despite the Orthodox church considering documents from the time of Jesus by aquaintances of Jesus, people's perceptions of the documnets have changed down the years. If you consider the number of different perceptions people take on even the newest novels etc., think of how many different views would have been amalgamated to form the current theories over those documents. There's no way you can say that what you've been taught is what the writers wanted you to get from their documents.
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