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Post by Hermes on Apr 13, 2011 15:36:56 GMT -5
I've just got a second-hand copy of this and begun reading it. it's fascinating. Whereas with Adverbs I felt it was by a completely different writer, here I can sense Lemony Snicket struggling to be born. I'm only about fifty pages in, and we have had - a typewriter. (Yes, I know this is rather trivial, but the typewriter is very much Lemony's symbol, and I would have thought was already out of date when this was published.) - a character known only by an initial (V). - references to Poe and Salinger. - and most strikingly, this. 'Idea for a story: A man falls in love with a woman and writes her letter after letter. We never read the letters she writes to him. His love grows and grows through the letters. He can't stand it any more'. It puts TBL in a new - and somewhat disturbing -light.
OK, a couple of questions. In the acknowledgements, DH mentions 'Louis and 324 Handler'. Who on earth is 324 Handler?
On page 18 'Reader, note that she pronounces my nickname [Flan] not as the first syllable of my name is regularly pronounced, but as "a pastry or tart..."' So how do you pronounce the first syllable of 'Flannery'? I would say it the same as a pastry or tart anyway.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Apr 13, 2011 15:45:21 GMT -5
There are a lot of Snickety things in TB8 that struck me while reading it, too, but I'd have to reread the book to remember all of them.
I don't know how you pronounce the pastry or tart "Flan," or indeed that one existed. It was something that also confused me slightly while reading.
Also, I'll check my copy for the acknowledgment; I hadn't noticed that detail before.
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Post by Dante on Apr 13, 2011 16:06:08 GMT -5
One of the few things I remember about TB8 was that it had quite a quirky style - although that's partly the character voice. I remember Handler criticising reviews of both this and Watch Your Mouth that judged him based on the personas of the first-person narrators of each. I agree with you about flans - I didn't know the name was pronounced any differently to the pastry.
That story idea is rather worrying, when you put it like that. I wonder if Why We Broke Up will be a sort of inverted version of that. As for Lemony and Beatrice, the fact that we never hear from her has always given his love a sort of obsessive, stalker-ish quality, and it's hard to shake off that interpretation even though it can't quite be legitimised.
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Post by Hermes on Apr 14, 2011 9:05:50 GMT -5
It seems to me that Flan's attitude is rather like Lemony's in some way - they both have something of an 'Adults don't get it' outlook. For instance, when the psychologist says 'It is impossible to overemphasize the importance of this psychosexual experience', and Flan says 'Of course it's possible to overemphasize it. You could say "This psychosexual experience was responsible for world hunger." That would be overemphasising, wouldn't it?' I can easily imagine Lemony saying something similar, though perhaps not in quite the same words.
And I have just come across so mething very Lemony - the question is raised who took a photograph.
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Post by Dante on Apr 14, 2011 9:42:04 GMT -5
I think Lemony would adopt a slightly more didactic tone, but would definitly make the same point. He's a bit more certain of himself on matters like that. Flan hasn't been an adult, but of course Lemony has. I wonder if that's a change in Handler, although I don't think aSoUE began that long after he wrote The Basic Eight (although of course it continued for years).
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Post by Hermes on Apr 19, 2011 14:02:17 GMT -5
OK, finished it. I will hae to reread it soon - it is the sort of book that demands to be reread with great care.
SPOILERS, OBVIOUSLY.
Study Questions.
1. What has happened to Flan's' parents? She says at one point that they have 'disappeared'. I did wonder if they were really there all the time - possibly sometimes Flan is with one of them when she thinks she is with Natasha. But various things - the absinthe party happening at her house, Gabriel staying all night, Douglas turning up early in the morning to have his makeup done - do make more sense if she's on her own.
2. How exactly does Flora fit in? At the end we are told that she is a member of the Basic Eight and always has been. But at the dinner party near the beginning, she definitely sounds as if she's with them for the first time - and yet the name 'the Basic Eight' was thought of before that.
3. I realised at the end that the surname of Douglas Wilde was significant. There are a couple of references to Oscar Wilde. less we miss it. Are any other names significant in the same way?
4. What is really happening when Flan thinks she is getting a lift from Natasha? She definitely takes the bus sometimes, so it doesn't seem as if she has a car of her own.
5. Where did the nail file really come from?
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Post by Christmas Chief on Apr 19, 2011 15:04:47 GMT -5
1. What has happened to Flan's' parents? She says at one point that they have 'disappeared'. I did wonder if they were really there all the time - possibly sometimes Flan is with one of them when she thinks she is with Natasha. But various things - the absinthe party happening at her house, Gabriel staying all night, Douglas turning up early in the morning to have his makeup done - do make more sense if she's on her own. Flan does comment on her parents whereabouts somewhat offhandedly, thus I took it (mistakenly?) as an unimportant detail. There are a few possible explanations for where they might be, or what might have happened to them, but overall I feel it's simply more convenient to the story if they're not there. The best explanation I could think of while attempting to make sense of that element was: Flora was an insignificant member to the group. There, but not a priority. Hence, she was counted as part of The Basic Eight, but wasn't with them often enough to avoid comments such as the ones given in Flan's interview, or reactions such as the ones occurring during the dinner party. There's Winnie Moprah. And I remember a few of the characters' surnames being possibly linked with literary figures (Jennifer Rose Milton to John Milton, for instance), but I'd have to reread it to remember them. There are a number of other issues that arise from Natasha's apparent non-existence, as you'll likely notice on your reread. Only somewhat implausible speculations: A caring neighbor? An empty bus? A stolen vehicle Flan only dares to use on certain occasions?
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Post by Dante on Apr 19, 2011 15:21:54 GMT -5
These are questions which make me want to reread TB8 myself. Alas, always so much else to do. There's a project I've been meaning to undertake in relation to Adverbs ever since it was released, and it seems unlikely that I will ever do so. I would guess that the absence of Flan's parents is... well, to facilitate scenes such as the ones you mention. A hedonist youth unchecked by any form of authority or real guidance. Given the way that truth in the text is a little slippery to get around, that explanation may work on the level of the narrative as well as of the construction of that narrative. Natasha exists because Flan needs her to exist. Flan's parents don't exist because Flan needs them to not exist.
One detail I remember liking, though, is the fact that, though Flan suggests the photograph of the Basic Eight be used as the book's cover art, that isn't the case because it could never be the case.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Apr 19, 2011 16:11:39 GMT -5
One detail I remember liking, though, is the fact that, though Flan suggests the photograph of the Basic Eight be used as the book's cover art, that isn't the case because it could never be the case. I had thought she suggested it come as a bookmark of sorts? It was a detail that rather reminded me of the UA.
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Post by Dante on Apr 20, 2011 3:27:24 GMT -5
Maybe; I've no idea how long it's been since I read TB8, but it must be years. The point still stands, though; a physical copy of the photograph (that is, a staged version of it) as a freebie could never come with the text as it would give away the plot twist. ...It would probably make a better cover picture than the edition I had to get, though, which is distinctly sleazy. Most editions just seem to go with the croquet mallet, though, which is interesting.
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Post by Hermes on Apr 20, 2011 9:58:06 GMT -5
Yes, there are a few celebrity names of this kind - Benjamin Cranaugh, for instance. And Stephen Queen. I wondered if the band names - Darling Mud, Tin Pan (or Can) - were similar, though I don't know enough to place them. Actually I think I've found the explanation for Jennifer Rose Milton; her mother is a teacher, and like, I think, all the teachers in the story (including Jim Carr!) is based on someone real - and her real name is Shelley. Still wondering about the other names, though. Given the way that truth in the text is a little slippery to get around, that explanation may work on the level of the narrative as well as of the construction of that narrative. Natasha exists because Flan needs her to exist. Flan's parents don't exist because Flan needs them to not exist. Um. Well, I'm inclined to think that in a story of this kind one should be able to make sense of what really happened. It's fairly easy to see how Natasha might be an illusion, not so easy to see how the absence of Flan's parents can be - if they are there all the time so much of what is recounted can't have happened; and I think a lot of it must have happened if there is to be a story at all. The narrative is clearly unreliable, but if too much of a narrative is unreliable, you get a rather puzzling confusion of levels - you find yourself saying 'Perhaps it was all made up.' And of course it was all made up - by Daniel Handler. But we were trying to work out what happens in the story. Oh gosh. That didn't strike me. You're right, of course. That is a striking thing about Flan, actually: she is writing this in the light of later knowledge; she knows that Adam will die; she knows, at points, that she will kill him, despite having blanked out at the time. But at no point does she show any awareness that Natasha is not real (and so goes on believing that Flora was not one of the Basic Eight).
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Post by s on Apr 20, 2011 15:00:30 GMT -5
regarding the pronunciation of her name -- in american english at least, the first syllable of Flannery rhymes with "can" (indeed, "Flannery" rhymes quite nicely with "cannery") whereas the dessert is pronounced, uh, flahn, with a long a.
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Post by Hermes on Apr 20, 2011 16:12:38 GMT -5
...It would probably make a better cover picture than the edition I had to get, though, which is distinctly sleazy. Most editions just seem to go with the croquet mallet, though, which is interesting. Mine has a row of absinthe bottles (one coloured, the rest fading into he background). regarding the pronunciation of her name -- in american english at least, the first syllable of Flannery rhymes with "can" (indeed, "Flannery" rhymes quite nicely with "cannery") whereas the dessert is pronounced, uh, flahn, with a long a. Thanks. For me 'flan' the pastry rhymes with 'can' anyway.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Apr 20, 2011 17:33:43 GMT -5
Actually I think I've found the explanation for Jennifer Rose Milton; her mother is a teacher, and like, I think, all the teachers in the story (including Jim Carr!) is based on someone real - and her real name is Shelley. Still wondering about the other names, though. Interestingly, I stumbled upon a site that claims the characters (some of them, anyway) at Roewer are based on people at Handler's school, Lowell. Dr. Tert addresses the issue of Flan's parents in the epilogue, but never their absences, I think. It's rather strange. Is Dr. Tert avoiding the issue? Is Flan avoiding the issue? Is Daniel Handler avoiding the issue? Do you think Flan's parents simply neglect her? Does Flan neglect her parents? Would parents make a significant difference in Flan's life, and if they are well-respected members of their community, how far away could they be? Questions like these will be repeated throughout the thread, but write down the answer each time, so it's fresh. And then, other perspectives are distorted. I found myself unable to take Dr. Tert any more seriously than Flan, at the end, after hearing so much about her "inaccuracies." But Flan is so unreliable herself that it's difficult to tell who is most accurate, in actuality. How would you pronounce "cane," then?
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Post by Dante on Apr 21, 2011 1:57:22 GMT -5
Like "flame," but with completely different consonants. I introduced this example because it begans with the same three letters as Flan, but is pronounced differently. Elsewhere, I'm seeing competing theories over whether "flan" is pronounced flan or flahn or flon, which suggests to me that there isn't a consistent answer.
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