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Post by Christmas Chief on Apr 21, 2011 7:19:57 GMT -5
Well, Hermes said he already pronounced "can" like "flahn" or "flame," with a long "a," which is how I pronounce "cane," so I was wondering how that would work. I guess the important thing here, though, is that Flan's name was said differently than usual. Specifically, as a pastry. How that pastry is pronounced is another matter entirely...
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Post by Hermes on Apr 21, 2011 11:05:30 GMT -5
Dr. Tert addresses the issue of Flan's parents in the epilogue, but never their absences, I think. It's rather strange. Is Dr. Tert avoiding the issue? Is Flan avoiding the issue? Is Daniel Handler avoiding the issue? Do you think Flan's parents simply neglect her? Does Flan neglect her parents? Would parents make a significant difference in Flan's life, and if they are well-respected members of their community, how far away could they be? Questions like these will be repeated throughout the thread, but write down the answer each time, so it's fresh. Brilliant! I literally laughed out loud at this. Like "flame," but with completely different consonants. I introduced this example because it begans with the same three letters as Flan, but is pronounced differently. Elsewhere, I'm seeing competing theories over whether "flan" is pronounced flan or flahn or flon, which suggests to me that there isn't a consistent answer. Well, of course, it's very hard to explain how to pronounce things to people who don't share your accent, because the basic words you are using as examples would also be pronounced differently. (If you have ever seen Brits and Americans discussing whether 'Gryffindor' rhymes with 'Ravenclaw' you will know what I mean.) In any case, for me (Southern English accent - Northern would not be the same) there are three 'a' sounds: Short a as in 'cat', also used in 'can', and (for me) in 'flan', the dessert. Long a as in 'cane', 'flame' etc. Another, quite different, kind of long a as in, say, 'bath' - that's the one that might be written as 'ah' - and seems to be closest to the American way of saying 'flan', the dessert.
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Post by s on Apr 22, 2011 14:53:19 GMT -5
this is becoming absurdly convoluted. how's this example: the "a" in flan is like the "a" in father (...and i don't think that vowel sound changes between american and british english?)
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Post by Hermes on Apr 22, 2011 15:12:32 GMT -5
Yes, that sounds OK to me - that is, I get what you're saying, though I wouldn't say it like that.
'Can' I say roughly the way you do. 'Father' I say roughly the way you do. 'Flan' I say to rhyme with 'can', whereas you say it with the a in 'father'. 'Cane' has a completely different sound which doesn't feature in this discussion at all.
Does that sound right?
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Post by Hermes on Apr 24, 2011 11:28:17 GMT -5
By the way, regarding the 'lift' puzzle, it may be that when Flan thinks she's getting a lift from Natasha she's really just walking. At one point she tells us how she got a lift from V-, and then says that she was lying about this, and really she walked. So clearly she does live close enough to school to walk there, though far enough away that taking the bus also makes sense.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Apr 24, 2011 11:57:38 GMT -5
Ah, that makes sense. I wonder why Flan thought it necessary to create Natasha in the first place? (Dr. Tert's explanation seems to be lacking, as it's not always true Flan uses Natasha to replace her "dark side.")
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Post by Hermes on Apr 24, 2011 14:44:16 GMT -5
Well, it's true she does do the things Dr Tert metnions - even though it is a bit silly to go from murder to talking back in class, Natasha does indeed do both on Flan's behalf. But she also provides support and comfort.
I also think she is based on a real person - but not (or not primarily) either of the Natashas Dr Tert metions (one of whom may not even have known Flan).
When Flan is called to the principal's office, she remembers an incident in second grade when she and Sara Crain were called to the principal's office. She and Sara had a secret society consisting of themselves and some stuffed animals; and Sara was killed in a car crash a couple of years later.
At the time, Flan is perfectly well aware that only she has been called to the principal's office; only she meets the principal. But later when she meets Natasha, N says 'When we were called to the principal's office, that really brought back memories of second grade, didn't it?' Which I think tells us who the source of Natasha really was.
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Post by s on Apr 24, 2011 18:19:49 GMT -5
Yes, that sounds OK to me - that is, I get what you're saying, though I wouldn't say it like that. 'Can' I say roughly the way you do. 'Father' I say roughly the way you do. 'Flan' I say to rhyme with 'can', whereas you say it with the a in 'father'. 'Cane' has a completely different sound which doesn't feature in this discussion at all. Does that sound right? Yes, exactly. Haha.
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Post by Dante on Apr 29, 2011 10:12:44 GMT -5
As you know, Hermes, I haven't read TB8 in years, but that sounds like an excellent theory. Maybe at some point we should have a "667 Daniel Handler's Non-ASoUE Works Reread."
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Post by Hermes on Apr 29, 2011 14:48:30 GMT -5
As you know, Hermes, I haven't read TB8 in years, but that sounds like an excellent theory. Thanks! Well, I'm planning to make some comments as I go through it again, which I've just started doing. I wouldn't want to spoil anything, though. Unfortunately, it turns out that my solution to the 'lift' problem doesn't work. When Flan (falsely, as it turns out) get the lift from V-, that's after getting off the bus, which (rather oddly, I would have thought) stops three blocks from the school. She says at one point that she lives on the other side of town. So I don't know. One can explain everything by saying Flan is editing her memories, and sometimes - as with three-way conversations involving Natasha - she clearly is. But unless we have some grasp on what really happened, there's no story. (So far in my re-reading she has had only one lift with Natasha, back from the coffee-shop. Perhopas she took the bus, or perhaps she was never there in the first place, since she only went there to see Natasha.)
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on Jul 22, 2014 9:05:09 GMT -5
I can't help feeling a bit late to the party when I drop in on a three-year-old thread, but here goes. I just finished TB8 after having excessive trouble getting my hands on a copy (Amazon has been about to restock it for at least a year and a half, and all the bookstores I've asked have been unable to help. I just recently started ordering books from another online retailer, who happened to have this one). I think I'm better off reading it now, though, as my life resonates pretty well with its contents at the moment. The high school-y why-can't-I-be-wise-now?-y parts, that is, not the absinthy, murderous and delusional parts. On those frontiers, my life is pretty much perfect right now, so I can't relate at all. I totally called most of the twists! I got the Natasha thing about halfway through the book, soon before the part when Gabriel talks about being alone with Flan, and she corrects him that Natasha was there, too. That's what confirmed it for me. I also saw Douglas' homosexuality coming, what with his surname and general behaviour. A particular piece of foreshadowing that I enjoyed picking up on was how Douglas, whom Flan had, I think, previously called skinny, was too large to fit into any but one of her shirts, implying that Flan wasn't as fat as she saw herself. About Flan's parents - is it possible that they were just neglecting her? That they simply cared so little about their daughter's life that they failed to notice and interfere with what went on? In this scenario, Flan would be protecting her parents' reputation out of affection for them, and Dr. Tert would be defending her original theory, i.e. that Flan's mental issues arose from her tumultous social life. Factoring in parental negligence would make it much less likely that social life was what drove her mad. Of course, this shows a terrible disregard of psychological methods, so it only works if we go with the idea that Dr. Tert is a terrible psychiatrist and an unreliable source. I didn't see it coming that Flan was Jewish, although knowing who wrote the book, I probably should have. Kudos to DH for offhandedly revealing it on page 301 in what felt to me like an inside joke in a way that it couldn't possibly to anyone who hadn't read any of the books he wrote later. I also loved the "Would I? "Would I?" story, which I've read aloud to three people in as many days. My social circle is a place where puns are pretty much currency. In which they are currency.
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Post by Hermes on Jul 22, 2014 9:52:08 GMT -5
You are a lot more perceptive than I was, fragilethings.
What is the giveaway that Flan is Jewish? (It is a bit surprising, I guess, seeing that 'Flannery' is an Irish name.)
I am planning a DH adult books re-read, though it keeps being delayed; I intend to start it at a time when nothing much else is happening at 667, but right now we have both Big Brother and the summer book club, and by the time we have finished with them there will be a new Snicket release coming up. Some time this winter, perhaps.
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on Jul 22, 2014 10:18:19 GMT -5
You are a lot more perceptive than I was, fragilethings. What is the giveaway that Flan is Jewish? (It is a bit surprising, I guess, seeing that 'Flannery' is an Irish name.) I am planning a DH adult books re-read, though it keeps being delayed; I intend to start it at a time when nothing much else is happening at 667, but right now we have both Big Brother and the summer book club, and by the time we have finished with them there will be a new Snicket release coming up. Some time this winter, perhaps. Thanks, though I'm sure that's only in this particular case. It's revealed here: "Gabriel saw me and lit up like Christmas except I'm Jewish and don't celebrate Christmas. To me it's just somebody's birthday." (P. 301, ll. 29-31, Harper Perennial 2006 paperback edition, the one with a girl in a blue dress standing in a garden (or on a lawn? The connections are everywhere ) with a croquet mallet) That sounds interesting. I'll probably be following it, possibly commenting on parts of TB8, WWBU and Adverbs, but not participating. I always have far too many things that I haven't read already.
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Post by twigz on Nov 12, 2023 15:03:59 GMT -5
why the basic eight is a foxian masterpiece (working title):
"6:48 Orders another latte. Overcaffeinated and nervous, Flan suddenly realizes she’s read the same sentence in “For Esme with Love and Squalor” sixteen times in a row."
"Well I showered and changed my clothes and took the bus down to the lake, clutching the champagne neck inside my backpack, feeling the delicious paranoia that only a minor clutching alcohol on public transportation can feel."
i have so many assessments but all i want to do is keep reading this book!!!
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Post by Mr. Sharpe on Jan 24, 2024 19:48:58 GMT -5
I'm about halfway through reading this for the first time, and am enjoying it a lot more than I thought I would. The only other Handler novel I have read was Bottle Grove, which was a bit of a slog.
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