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Post by friendofvfd on Apr 1, 2016 12:59:26 GMT -5
I understand that all of the characters except for Lemony had issues with trusting her because of the suspicious things and possibly villainous things that she's done. But Moxie especially seemed to really hate her, and every time Lemony brought Ellington up, Moxie was the only one to be annoyed with him mentioning her. But why? Lemony was one of the only people to be mature enough to realize that she wasn't that bad, and she was only doing these things to help find her father, and when she found out Hangfire was her dad, she was just as surprised as everyone else. And yet, everyone still had bad feelings for her, especially Moxie.
And I highly doubt that it had anything to do with Moxie having romantic feelings for Lemony, since she still calls him by his last name and didn't seem all that interested when he left at the end, she just waved at him and went back to finishing typing her paper. So what truly was her distaste for her? Again, it seemed unusually stronger than the others.
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on Apr 1, 2016 13:39:14 GMT -5
I think the implication is that Moxie did have some degree of romantic feelings for Lemony, and that this was what led to her mistrust of Ellington. Calling her by his last name is something I take as a kind of 'flirting' - subtle flirting, in keeping with the spirit of both Snicket's universe and the Noir/hardboiled genre that ATWQ is a pastiche of. When even Moxie just waves at Lemony as he leaves in the end of ?4, I take that as a sign that he has committed an action so morally questionable - or, you might argue, just morally wrong - that even Moxie, who has shown such affection for him throughout the series, is repelled and judges him for that action.
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Post by Hermes on Apr 1, 2016 14:14:55 GMT -5
Calling her by his last name is something I take as a kind of 'flirting' - subtle flirting, in keeping with the spirit of both Snicket's universe and the Noir/hardboiled genre that ATWQ is a pastiche of. There's a scene in The End where Beatrice calls him 'Mr Snicket', which I take to be something similar.
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Post by gliquey on Apr 2, 2016 3:27:50 GMT -5
And I highly doubt that it had anything to do with Moxie having romantic feelings for Lemony I always thought that was exactly the reason. Moxie has never met Ellington before Lemony describes her, and it is understandable for Moxie - possibly even if Moxie's just a friend - to be jealous of the person Lemony spends every waking moment thinking about. Moxie was actually right to distrust Ellington, and the fact that Lemony gets betrayed multiple times by Ellington and still won't see it must only heighten Moxie's contempt. Calling her by his last name is something I take as a kind of 'flirting' - subtle flirting, in keeping with the spirit of both Snicket's universe and the Noir/hardboiled genre that ATWQ is a pastiche of. I think it's a semi-tongue in cheek way of them making each other feel more grown up, probably in the same way that Moxie going around with a typewriter and calling herself a journalist, as if she's an adult, does. It does fit quite well in the aura of the series.
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Post by Tryina Denouement on Apr 2, 2016 9:25:45 GMT -5
Either Moxie is a kuudere (one who is icy and distant to an individual but actually has affections for the individual), or she just doesn't see that Ellington isn't actually evil.
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Zero Cain
Bewildered Beginner
Who wrote "The Wind in the Willows?
Posts: 1
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Post by Zero Cain on Apr 27, 2016 5:03:10 GMT -5
I always thought it was because of jealousy, but now that you mention that all the other characters didn't trust her either, even Josephine, that actually makes me wonder. Maybe it's because of a bad impression? Or maybe it's because of all of the possible villanous things that she has done including attempting to steal the bombinating beast. She worked with Hangfire to get her father back and was just as suprised as everyone else when Hangfire was revealed to be Armstrong Feint. I think it was mostly jealousy though, but again, as stated above, Moxie didn't seem at all that interested when Snicket left at the end. I still believe that it was mostly to do with jealousy, though. Atleast that's what I think. I'm thirteen and I could be wrong. About all of it...
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Post by Dante on Apr 27, 2016 7:50:32 GMT -5
I would agree with Comet above that Moxie's feelings for Snicket throughout the series are not necessarily identical to those feelings of hers at the very end of the series. Snicket's actions in the denouement irrevocably altered his friends' opinion of him, and that effect arguably would be even stronger the more a person cared for him. I think Moxie understood, in the climax of the series, just as the rest of Snicket's friends understood, that he was not necessarily the person she believed him to be, or idealised him to be, or wanted him to be.
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Post by lorelai on Apr 27, 2016 14:09:00 GMT -5
I agree with Comet and Dante, and I always saw Moxie's earlier feelings as having a crush on Lemony, which colored her feelings on Ellington. In relation to this, is anyone ever struck all over again with how sad SnicketVerse can b;, but then I was always a bit annoyed with Lemony's friends' reactions by the end, understandable/logical as they are, so I'm sure that's coloring this comment.
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Post by Dante on Apr 28, 2016 2:16:54 GMT -5
Lemony Snicket's life does grow ever more terribly sad with every detail we learn about it. Everyone he cares about either comes to hate him or dies long before their time. By the end of ASoUE he can't be out of his forties but he's pretty much the last survivor of his whole generation of volunteers.
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Post by friendofvfd on Aug 17, 2016 12:32:26 GMT -5
Hmmmm, well I definitely respect everyone's views on the matter, and I do enjoy reading others opinions on it. I guess the reason why I was hoping that it wouldn't be the case with Moxie is because I'm really sick and tired of the ridiculous stereotype in film/books/television shows of girls and women not liking each other when a boy or man gets involved. The whole "women being jealous of each other and competing with each other for some guy" that is unfortunately so prevalent in the media. Of course anyone who knows better knows that all of those stereotypes are stupid and completely untrue. And that's why I was kind of disappointed if Daniel Handler went in that direction, since he's always been kind of an awesome feminist when it comes to writing female characters.
However, I guess it makes up for the fact that at least Moxie became good friends with other female characters, like Cleo and Ornette. The three of them truly became the best of pals through their shared adventures, and that is a truly great thing. So I'm glad that Handler at least did that.
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Post by Dante on Aug 17, 2016 14:58:49 GMT -5
I would agree that jealousy of this kind is not the most wonderfully original device, but I don't think by a long chalk that that's all there is to Moxie's distrust of Ellington - and I'd also suggest that any jealousy there is isn't necessarily romantic. Consider that, on many occasions, we see that what Moxie most wants is to become more closely involved in investigating the mystery surrounding the town; she's a journalist, after all. And Snicket repeatedly shuts her down only to go gallivanting off with Ellington instead, despite having been betrayed by Ellington right in front of Moxie's face. Moxie could be forgiven for thinking that a double-standard was being applied here, and she'd probably be right; there's a point in ?1 where Snicket even considers recommending Ellington to V.F.D. as a recruit, but he never proposes the same thing about any of his other associates. In general, Moxie also probably hears more about Ellington and her activities from Snicket, too, so she might have more room to make a judgement on Ellington's character. So I also think that, as a journalist and a friend, Moxie would feel particularly begrudging of Ellington's continued involvement in Snicket's investigations.
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Post by gliquey on Aug 18, 2016 5:58:25 GMT -5
I'm really sick and tired of the ridiculous stereotype in film/books/television shows of girls and women not liking each other when a boy or man gets involved. The whole "women being jealous of each other and competing with each other for some guy" that is unfortunately so prevalent in the media. Of course anyone who knows better knows that all of those stereotypes are stupid and completely untrue. And that's why I was kind of disappointed if Daniel Handler went in that direction, since he's always been kind of an awesome feminist when it comes to writing female characters. I agree completely that the cliche in general is unfunny and annoying, and as a feminist I appreciate that Handler's portrayal of gender is usually great. However, I do still think the implications of Moxie being jealous of Ellington for romantic reasons are still there, but they are only implications. As Dante suggests, there are plenty of reasons for Moxie to be jealous of or at least dislike Ellington. I personally don't find this specific instance of the trope annoying, perhaps because it's subtle, not intended to be comedic and Moxie's hatred is pretty rational and doesn't just turn her into a jealous wreck, but provides an interesting point of view worth listening to.
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Post by lorelai on Aug 19, 2016 17:11:10 GMT -5
A VERY good point. No matter Why Moxie doesn't like Ellington, she has valid reasons to dislike her regardless of where they stem from--I think you could say it's a mix of all of Dante's points really. I found myself disliking Ellington's lack of openness when Lemony was telling her quite a lot about his life, and that was while I was sympathizing with her and hoping she'd find her father/stop repeating this betrayal pattern.
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