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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Jul 20, 2020 12:01:27 GMT -5
Hello all, even though we are scheduled to begin the TWW rewatch today, please feel free to keep posting in the TBB and TRR threads as much as you like. I understand that many of you are still catching up and I don't want anyone here to feel obligated to post only in certain places at certain times. The schedule is really more of a rough guideline and the main object of these rewatches is for people to have a free and relaxed space to talk about the film/tv adaptations of these great books. Thanks again to tk for their incredible work on getting this rewatch together in the first place.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jul 20, 2020 14:21:56 GMT -5
Well, here are my remarks on episode 5.
I really liked the scene of the Baudelaires' arrival at Lake Lachrymose. That dialogue between the taxi driver and the children seems to be a tribute to ATWQ. I really liked the look of the city, how CGI was used. I liked the lake itself, and the eye shape. It makes me think that that lake is artificial, made many, many years ago by volunteers, which would make VFD really old. (Ish, you are a liar). I also really liked Aunt Josephine's mansion.
But I definitely didn't like the acting of the actress who plays Aunt Josephine. What's her name? Alfre Woodard. I feel like she is a very good actress, but I couldn't like her performance here. I will be sincere. The first time I watched the show, I was comparing her performance with that of Meryl Streep. But this time, I seriously tried to let go of any comparison. But I still didn't like it. She just doesn't seem to be really afraid of things. She seems to pretend to be scared and she always says that she is scared, but I can't believe that she is really scared. Perhaps I misunderstood this performance. Perhaps that was really the goal. Perhaps she was in a constant disguise, like someone who pretends to be incapable when in fact she is not that incapable. If that was the case, the performance by the actress and the direction was very good. But if that was not the goal, the performance was bad. So in that regard I will leave a question about my final opinion. But the other problem I didn't like about her acting, and for that I didn't find excuses, is that I didn't feel that she really loves grammar. You can tell she’s just pretending to like grammar. All the dialogues are right, and the whole scene is written in the right way, but her performance was bad. An example: I find it easier to believe that that woman loves leeches than she loves grammar. See how she talks about the leeches that ate her husband. She seems to have a strange admiration for those creatures. But when she talks about grammar, everything seems so artificial ... I'm sorry I'm talking about it so much ... But Aunt Josephine is very special to me.
But I can tell Sunny's facial expression when Aunt Josephine talked about the stove, it makes up for it all. There, without saying a word, I was able to fully understand what she felt.
I found it interesting to know that Bertrand lived in Egypt. Do we have this information in books? I do not remember.
Now let's talk about Olaf. I liked Count Olaf's disguise. And I found the dialogue interesting when he met Josephine, and I got another reference to ATWQ in a dialogue by Klaus and Violet.
Now let's talk briefly about a small detail (like all details) that was a little strange due to a script decision. In the third season it is shown that practically all VFD secrets, at least the most important ones, are found in that black book. Apparently that was already decided since the first season. But it caused a little problem here. Klaus and Violet went to great lengths to open the safe and find the book. But when Klaus was left alone to search the library, it seems that he did not immediately think about opening that safe and picking up that specific book and reading its contents as quickly as possible. It must have taken him a long time to finally do this, because violet sewed up a good part of the net when he was finally ready to open the book sitting next to his sister, that's when they heard the sound of the window breaking. This behavior was somewhat inconsistent. I do not think that Klaus, an excellent researcher who demonstrated the ability to quickly find the necessary information in libraries, would forget to look for answers primarily in that book. He was unable to read that book solely because the time for the Baudelaires to discover VFD secrets had not come.
I really liked Lemony's scene telling the story at the end of this episode. The scene was very beautiful with that sunset.
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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Jul 21, 2020 14:07:12 GMT -5
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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Jul 21, 2020 20:02:22 GMT -5
The Wide Window: VFX Before and After [From Tippett Studio, Boxel VFX, and Crater Studios ]
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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Jul 22, 2020 1:01:56 GMT -5
Excerpts from the Wide Window Section of The Incomplete History of Secret Organizations BARRY SONNENFELD (Director of “The Wide Window”): The same stage where we shot Briny Beach was where we shot the main street of Lake Lachrymose. I loved what Bo did there. In one shot, Patrick Warburton comes out of a clothing store, and we do a massive long pull that takes us all the way to the Anxious Clown restaurant where we meet Larry. Every storefront has so much detail that’s specific to our show, from the accordion in the music store to the ads for “fixer-uppers” in the real estate window. That’s just the level of love that everyone in the prop and art departments had for Bo and the vision for the show. It thrilled and delighted me. (From Season 1's Art Director Dan Hermansen) BO WELCH (Production Designer): We did programmatic architecture in the town. That’s where the architecture takes on the physical shape of what it’s selling — like the fried egg restaurant is shaped like a fried egg. (From the Incomplete History of Secret Organizations) BARRY SONNENFELD: Feature films shoot an average of two pages a day. Most television shows do maybe five or six pages a day. But the scene where Aunt Josephine meets Captain Sham was a ten-page scene, and it wasn’t even the only scene that we had to shoot that day. It was ten pages of talking, but we did it in half a day, because those actors were so good. (From Season 1's Art Director Dan Hermansen) ALFRE WOODARD (Aunt Josephine): My kids grew up reading the Lemony Snicket books. So as soon as they said, “A Series of Unfortunate Events,” I was like, “I am there!” I was hungry for something inventive and out of the ordinary. Actors can get pigeonholed, and people ask them to do the same thing. But I hadn’t done a show like this, because nothing like this had ever been done before. (From Season 1's Art Director Dan Hermansen) MALINA WEISSMAN (Violet Baudelaire): There was one scene that I will never forget. We were in a sailboat on blue screen and it was a long scene. It was me, Louis, and Alfre, and nobody knew their lines. We were on this tiny little boat, we had to run back and forth and up the mast, and people were throwing water at us, and it was just a crazy scene that was very fun to film. (From Crater Studios' VFX Breakdown)
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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Jul 22, 2020 1:13:24 GMT -5
One thing that really sticks out to me in these episodes is how poorly established the location of Aunt Josephine’s house is. The only establishing shot we get of it actually sticking off the cliff is a weird rotating shot while the taxi drives up the cliffside towards it, and no care is taken to emphasize its tiny position in the background. I get the feeling it was supposed to enter frame and people would go “oh wow, look at that!” But it’s a barely noticeable background element. I agree with you that the location is poorly set up and it's really quite annoying because the actual design of both the house and the location is actually very good. It manages to capture the spirit of the books while also looking nothing like the 2004 movie, which is quite impressive. But because we never see it like it's shown in the concept art below, we miss out on all the great little touches. I especially like that the supports not only extend out and are bolted to the cliff to function as the road but have also been built because the house is clearly already sliding off the cliff-face.
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Post by Dante on Jul 22, 2020 5:07:06 GMT -5
One of the things I appreciated about this adaptation, though I'm sure it's something of a Marmite moment overall, is that it paid sufficient attention to detail to include an actual explanation for how Aunt Josephine got to Curdled Cave - and it's completely ludicrous. It's a plot hole in the original story that seems frankly difficult to explain in a way consistent with Josephine's character, and I couldn't help but be amused by the audacity of solving the problem in a totally absurd way. (I don't think it's entirely unreasonable, particularly for Alfre Woodard's manic take on the character and more daring background - but they did it this way because it's funny, and for me that worked.)
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Post by FileneNGottlin on Jul 22, 2020 13:31:29 GMT -5
I actually rather liked Alfre Woodard. I found Meryl Streep funny at first, then increasingly grating as the movie went on(I love Meryl, so I assume this is the director’s fault). I do wish the death had had more impact, something that the movie was much better at. Though I usually don’t always like when the series makes significant changes to the books, I’m glad that they change how to Baudelaire arrive at Lucky Smells. Of all their bizarrely inappropriate guardians, Sir is by far the worst, and it seemed implausible, even by ASOUE standards, that Mr. Poe would place the Baudelaires in his care.
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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Jul 23, 2020 13:01:18 GMT -5
This set of episodes suffers most poorly by comparison to the movie, I think. I’m getting ahead of myself a little here, but it’s interesting that TWW, one of the best part of the movie, is one of the worst parts of the show, while TMM, one of the least popular books in the series, is one of the highlights of the first season. I think you've raised a very interesting point here. Personally, I feel this is largely due to the fact that both TWW and TMM are rather repetitious books that got adapted in different ways. TMM was essentially restructured from the ground up with many scenes being changed, added, and cut in order to allow a better-paced plot with a bit more intrigue and suspense, whereas TWW essentially just expanded the book and didn't really change or delete all that much. This is the same reason why, unlike TRR, TWW actually benefits from the movie's ruthless editing of books 2 and 3. TWW is already so repetitious that cutting out most of the plot and leaving only the really memorable bits like Josephine's phobias, the leeches, and Hurricane Herman works. Of course, it also doesn't hurt that TWW in the film also gets over half an hour to itself while TRR only runs for about 15 minutes. In fact, if you added 20-25 minutes to the movie's TWW you'd get a full length episode of the show which covered pretty much the entire book.
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Post by Be actress Beatrice on Jul 23, 2020 14:04:15 GMT -5
I think that an interpretation identical to that of MS would not be welcome at all. After all, if you want to watch MS being Josephine you must watch the movie. If you want to see something different, you must watch the show. I'm glad that neither the actress nor the director, nor those who choose the cast tried to imitate MS, which could be disastrous. The show is different, and at times uncomfortable, and intriguing. Do not forget that of all the episodes DH made a participation in one of these. These episodes are different from the film, but they are not necessarily bad.
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Post by Dante on Jul 23, 2020 15:34:11 GMT -5
I think that an interpretation identical to that of MS would not be welcome at all. After all, if you want to watch MS being Josephine you must watch the movie. If you want to see something different, you must watch the show. I'm glad that neither the actress nor the director, nor those who choose the cast tried to imitate MS, which could be disastrous. The show is different, and at times uncomfortable, and intriguing. I agree with this, not just with reference to Aunt Josephine but also to Mr. Poe. I think Meryl Streep and Timothy Spall gave us (and were cast and directed to give us) an interpretation of their characters which was probably very close to what the average reader derived from the text - doolally old aunt, stuffy English banker, the classic types (and Helquist's subsequent illustrations follow suit) - and as such, that interpretation had been done. It wouldn't have been to the Netflix series's advantage to recycle it; or indeed to the viewer's advantage to have to sit through anything amounting to an extended cut of the movie. Obviously, there are still some commonalities. These are adaptations of the same books, after all, by the same people involved in the development of the movie. But taking a different approach where possible (Alfre Woodard's manic Aunt Josephine, K. Todd Freeman's perpetually upbeat Mr. Poe) definitely helps the Netflix version specifically to distinguish itself in those early stages where it most has to fight against residual memories of the movie.
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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Jul 23, 2020 19:01:44 GMT -5
I think that an interpretation identical to that of MS would not be welcome at all. After all, if you want to watch MS being Josephine you must watch the movie. If you want to see something different, you must watch the show. I'm glad that neither the actress nor the director, nor those who choose the cast tried to imitate MS, which could be disastrous. The show is different, and at times uncomfortable, and intriguing. I agree with this, not just with reference to Aunt Josephine but also to Mr. Poe. I think Meryl Streep and Timothy Spall gave us (and were cast and directed to give us) an interpretation of their characters which was probably very close to what the average reader derived from the text - doolally old aunt, stuffy English banker, the classic types (and Helquist's subsequent illustrations follow suit) - and as such, that interpretation had been done. It wouldn't have been to the Netflix series's advantage to recycle it; or indeed to the viewer's advantage to have to sit through anything amounting to an extended cut of the movie. Obviously, there are still some commonalities. These are adaptations of the same books, after all, by the same people involved in the development of the movie. But taking a different approach where possible (Alfré Woodard's manic Aunt Josephine, K. Todd Freeman's perpetually upbeat Mr. Poe) definitely helps the Netflix version specifically to distinguish itself in those early stages where it most has to fight against residual memories of the movie. Exactly. Indeed, the main problem I have with the TWW episodes is that I don't feel they do enough to distinguish themselves from the book and the film. Apart from the Larry Your-Waiter scenes most of these two episodes are exactly the same as the book except with a lot more padding.
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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Jul 23, 2020 19:13:01 GMT -5
I agree with this, not just with reference to Aunt Josephine but also to Mr. Poe. I think Meryl Streep and Timothy Spall gave us (and were cast and directed to give us) an interpretation of their characters which was probably very close to what the average reader derived from the text - doolally old aunt, stuffy English banker, the classic types (and Helquist's subsequent illustrations follow suit) - and as such, that interpretation had been done. It wouldn't have been to the Netflix series's advantage to recycle it; or indeed to the viewer's advantage to have to sit through anything amounting to an extended cut of the movie. Obviously, there are still some commonalities. These are adaptations of the same books, after all, by the same people involved in the development of the movie. But taking a different approach where possible (Alfré Woodard's manic Aunt Josephine, K. Todd Freeman's perpetually upbeat Mr. Poe) definitely helps the Netflix version specifically to distinguish itself in those early stages where it most has to fight against residual memories of the movie. Exactly. Indeed, the main problem I have with the TWW episodes is that I don't feel they do enough to distinguish themselves from the book and the film. Apart from the Larry Your-Waiter scenes most of these two episodes are exactly the same as the book except with a lot more padding. Looking back on it, it's amazing how prominent and popular of a character Larry Your-Waiter became given that his introduction here is hardly auspicious. It's not terrible or anything and Patrick Breen does a good job with the material but Larry isn't really given any particularly memorable lines or things to do apart from passing the peppermints to the Baudelaires.
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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Jul 25, 2020 21:01:16 GMT -5
Something that hasn't really been discussed during these rewatches so far is the show's musical score. I seem to remember people liking it in general with the exception of the scene in TWW: Part 2 where Josephine's house collapses, which I remember getting quite a bit of criticism on here.
Personally, I didn't love it but I thought it basically fit with the tone they were aiming for in that sequence, however, I'd be fascinated to see what everyone else thinks of it and the score for season 1 in general.
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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Jul 26, 2020 15:13:18 GMT -5
I found it interesting to know that Bertrand lived in Egypt. Do we have this information in books? I do not remember. I don't believe it's ever referenced in the books and it's slightly unusual in that it mentions a specific country, which is somewhat rare for the series. :Edit: Optimism is my Phil-osophy I saw that you didn't feel that Alfre Woodard's performance as Aunt Josephine was as compelling as Streep's but what were your thoughts on Billy Connolly and Aasif Mandvi's perfomances as Uncle Monty?
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