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Post by Phoebonica on May 9, 2006 6:37:28 GMT -5
This is a theory I came up when I was just getting into ASOUE, about what a possible cause of the schism could have been. I thought I'd post it here and see what you guys made of it. (I searched before posting and I don't think this has been discussed here before.)
We know that VFD only takes new members with their parents' permission (assuming they have parents). Something tells me they get a lot of rejections. I mean, if you were a parent, would you let your child join a secret organisation? (As the photographer in the UA comments, it's a lot harder to hang around playgrounds taking photographs these days.) This would explain why nearly everyone in VFD seems to be related, because only parents who were already volunteers would let their children join.
Frustrations build. They're running out of members, and the world is getting less and less quiet. And then one day, after losing yet another potential new recruit, someone thinks You know, I bet they'd give permission if their house nearly burned down...
Most of the volunteers are appalled. Some of them think that's not a bad idea, actually... And the more unscrupulous types start thinking of ways to exploit the situation. Because of course they're not planning to hurt anyone, but if something went wrong, well... the surviving children could be adopted (along with their fortunes) by caring relatives who just happen to be volunteers. ("We don't think it was a coincidence..."?)
It's just an idea. But it's one way that an organisation could go from preventing fires to starting them, and it fits with the whole "fight fire with fire" thing from TSS. So what does everyone think? Possible? Not likely? Anything important that I've forgotten about?
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Post by Dante on May 9, 2006 6:49:39 GMT -5
After TSS, I imagined that the original schism was due to some people wanting to continue their quiet and subtle ways of dealing with the enemy, whereas others, frustrated by how their enemies could always win because of their violent and destructive tactics, decided that was the same way to work. Fight fire with fire. Use any tactics to finish the enemy, lies, theft, murder, arson...
I don't think everyone who thought that was a good idea was originally bad, but eventually it corrupted them and they started committing crimes that weren't necessary. For example, maybe they needed funding for their expeditions, so they rob somebody they think is wicked, but then the money runs out again and again and they just start taking fortunes from anyone who happens to be passing by, convincing themselves that it's just this one time and you'll repay them later, and eventually the volunteers who wanted to fight fire with fire became the enemy and were absorbed by the very forces they wanted to do away with. And I think your ideas would definitely factor into that, and seems quite likely; I just think it was perhaps quite a bit broader.
And of course, that would spawn a cycle of violence - look at Olaf. Making several reasonable assumptions, let's say his parents committed crimes, and then his parents were murdered by people who wanted to make the world quiet, so then he murdered the people responsible, and now there are even more people trying to stop him.
Note that I do not think that Olaf wanted to recruit the Baudelaires at all; he and his associates say at least once, and I definitely remember more occasions, that the children will probably be killed after they're no longer needed. He just kept them around to be servants whilst he tried to figure out a way to get their fortune. His perspective may have changed now, though, as he has no-one else left.
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Post by Phoebonica on May 9, 2006 7:07:06 GMT -5
I don't think everyone who thought that was a good idea was originally bad, but eventually it corrupted them and they started committing crimes that weren't necessary. For example, maybe they needed funding for their expeditions, so they rob somebody they think is wicked, but then the money runs out again and again and they just start taking fortunes from anyone who happens to be passing by, convincing themselves that it's just this one time and you'll repay them later, and eventually the volunteers who wanted to fight fire with fire became the enemy and were absorbed by the very forces they wanted to do away with. And I think your ideas would definitely factor into that, and seems quite likely; I just think it was perhaps quite a bit broader. Yeah, I'd imagine there were a lot of variations of that same basic conflict going on, between the ones who wanted to stay quiet and peaceful and the ones who decided that that wasn't working. And the schism wouldn't have come about from just one incident, it would be a combination of all of them. Note that I do not think that Olaf wanted to recruit the Baudelaires at all; he and his associates say at least once, and I definitely remember more occasions, that the children will probably be killed after they're no longer needed. He just kept them around to be servants whilst he tried to figure out a way to get their fortune. His perspective may have changed now, though, as he has no-one else left. I agree with you - it's quite clear that he's not interested in getting them on his side. It's all about the money and probably revenge.
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Post by Ennui on May 9, 2006 7:41:14 GMT -5
I think, as Dante said, that now Olaf may see the Baudelaires as potential minions-in-training. After all, no one has better cause to be impressed by their abilities than he...
I'm rather hoping for a level of Olaf-Baudelaire understanding to develop as they rely on each other for survival.
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Post by Phoebonica on May 9, 2006 7:46:46 GMT -5
He does seem pleased at the thought of Sunny following in his footsteps. Maybe he'll try to recruit them to his side as a final act of revenge against their parents, or to prove himself in the right. I doubt they'd ever actually work for him, though (unless they were forced to).
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Antenora
Detriment Deleter
Fiendish Philologist
Put down that harpoon gun, in the name of these wonderful birds!
Posts: 15,891
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Post by Antenora on May 9, 2006 8:02:26 GMT -5
I think Olaf may try to recruit the Baudelaires--he's beginning to realize how much like him they really are, but he'll probably kill them once he's got no more use for them.
It's worth noting that what Dante said about the schism, and how using villainous tactics for noble aims led to it, is supported by the UA index. Therein, "noble causes"(such as keeping the world quiet), leads to "necessary evils"(such as fighting fire with fire and fighting villains with poison darts), which leads to "moral uncertainty"(the situation of the Baudelaires and many others), then to "villainy", "conspiracies", and "overall feeling of doom". "Laissez-faire philosophy" also leads to "moral uncertainty".
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Post by Jacques the Environmentalist on May 11, 2006 21:00:54 GMT -5
Indeed, I'm inclined to agree with Dante. Some, like Gregor, began to think, "our enemies can do it, why can't we? We're in the right, we're the noble ones we should be allowed to beat them in this manner..." except this grew until it was out of control. Or maybe some VFDers just got tired of fighting, implications are that the organization existed for centuries and maybe some saw that the world was just as wicked as ever it was so they gave up. "if you can't beat em, join em" philosophy. They may also have had this problem with members that phoebonica says, it's entirely reasonable.
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Post by Hooky on May 27, 2006 14:55:33 GMT -5
This does seem to be the sort of trap the Baudelaires are getting into. In The Penultimate Peril, they find it 'necessary' to burn down the Hotel Denouement, to use as a signal. They are becoming more villainous and they don't seem to know how to stop.
Also, the Baudelaires seem to have just about given up fighting the evil, and are finding it difficult to resist. They don't want to be evil, but they can't find any other way out of their predicament.
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Post by Jacques the Environmentalist on May 29, 2006 20:26:02 GMT -5
I wouldn't say they've given up. They accepted both Kit and Dewey's missions unfortunately Dewey died before they could fulfill his wishes. Also, I too thought the Baudelaires horrible after the fire but you must realize that Olaf would otherwise have made SURE everyone was killed with the mycelium. At least this way a bunch of people escaped like Olaf said they would, plus many of them got ample warning.
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Post by Sugary Snicket on Jun 12, 2006 14:59:38 GMT -5
I agree with both Dante's and Phoebonica's theories.
The Baudelaires probably will not join up with Olaf, but Olaf might join them. He seems to be identifying with the Baudelaires - they've also lost their parents, (So Olaf killed the parents for killing HIS parents), and they also are becoming more ambiguous.
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Post by Jacques the Environmentalist on Jun 13, 2006 20:14:24 GMT -5
Also, it's notable that Olaf didn't actually want to shoot anyone with the harpoon(and didn't.) He insisted that he shoot someone but then at the end faltered saying "What else can I do?" And the baudelaires gave him a moral alternative. If you look at that event it would seem more likely that Olaf will come to their side than vice versa.
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