|
Post by freeeagle on Apr 14, 2006 9:15:07 GMT -5
Does anyone want to discuss the family tree on p: 196-197 of LS:TUA? I have some theories myself.![](http://thequietworld.com/images/familytree.jpg)
|
|
|
Post by TheManager on Apr 14, 2006 11:06:34 GMT -5
Dear Free Eagle,
What troublesome theorys do you have in mind?
|
|
|
Post by Dante on Apr 14, 2006 11:37:22 GMT -5
We've discussed the Family Tree before in this thread, which people might want to flick through to gain ideas: asoue.proboards11.com/index.cgi?board=auto&action=display&thread=1120341187(Note also that my post near the start of that thread links a thread which came even before that.) I feel like a fresh start, so I'm going to close up that thread - it is pretty old - and this one can be the new one. There are generally two schools of thought on the family tree: 1. It's a literal family tree showing the branches of the Snicket family for three generations. 2. It's a tree showing the structure of V.F.D. in some way, possibly recruitment or lines of authority. Both of those theories have some problems with them, and it's likely Handler made it deliberately so, since he seems to change his ideas on what's going to happen each book quite a bit from what earlier books would suggest (and in an interview, he once said that he wrote a plan for each book and then usually deviated wildly halfway through). So really, it's pick and choose.
|
|
|
Post by freeeagle on Apr 14, 2006 13:47:34 GMT -5
On pp. 196 of Lemony Snicket: The Unauthorized Autobiography there is an illustration of a tree with various initials on each of its branches. It is labelled "the Family Tree" and has a key below it, which reads: "A. whereabouts unknown B. whereabouts uninteresting C. Chas. Snicket V. volunteer"
Although A. and B. reveal nothing and V. does not appear in the illustration, C. tells us that this is the Snicket family tree.
I am unsure about the identities of D., E. and F. but I know that D. is female. I doubt that the identies of these three initials will be revealed in the books to come.
Note: Others believe that D., E. and F. are Dewey Ernest and Frank Denouement. Though this is a strange coincidence, if their father was Chas. Snicket, their surnames would be Snicket. These identities make no sense with the rest of my theory.
The next set of initials is G., H. and I. Gregor and Ike Anwhistle are obvious choices. H. may be Hal, Hector or someone else who we haven't yet met. Due to his age, Hal may be a better choice than Hector.
Now comes J., K. and L., who I am almost positive are Jacques, Kit and Lemony. Though their father was known as Jacob,
To say my father was known as Jake is not quite true - he was known as Jacob to everyone but his longtime bridge partner - and as you can probably guess, the line about Robber Road is a fabrication. - LEMONY SNICKET: THE UNAUTHORIZED AUTOBIOGRAPHY pp.11
Jacob may have changed his name for any number of reasons why Lemony, Kit and Jacques may have taken their mother's maiden name.
Note: Others believe that E. is Elwyn once mentioned as uncle to the Baudelaires
Several years before this story takes place, when Violet was ten and Klaus was eight and Sunny was not even a fetus, the Baudelaire family went to a county fair in order to see a pig that their Uncle Elwyn had entered in a contest. - THE AUSTERE ACADEMY pp. 39
and that he was known as Jacob. He seems too old to be their uncle and, as far as we know, G., H., I., J., K., L., M., N. and O. are not the Baudelaire's mother (their father's name is Bertrand) so he is probably not an great-uncle who the Baudelaire's call their uncle. He may be a friend of the family who they call their uncle, though.
M., N. and O. are on the next set of branches. O. is probably Count Olaf. M. and N. may be the man with the beard, but no hair ad the woman with the hair, but no beard. This would explain why Count Olaf obeys them.
Notice that in each of the three families, ther is at least one person with a single eyebrow.
"But plenty of people have those characteristics," Aunt Josephine said "Why, my mother-in-law had not only one eyebrow, but also one ear." - THE WIDE WINDOW pp. 28
And when he turned his head and gazed around the room, the children could see that he had only one yebrow, instead of two, just like Count Olaf had. -THE VILE VILLAGE pp. 113
This is most likely hereditary which solidifies my theory that the families are related.
So, to summarize:
My theory has been modified.
|
|
|
Post by Dante on Apr 14, 2006 13:57:11 GMT -5
and perhaps Hector Anwhistle. A friend of mine once suggested, very sensibly, that given the age of Gregor and Ike, Hal might have been a more likely H. I myself went by the idea that since Snicket's father was only "known as Jacob," then maybe it was a nickname or a middle name of some sort, and his first name was Elwyn (mentioned in one book as an uncle to the Baudelaires). It's weak, I know, but as I said, both schools of thought have their flaws. Yours is perhaps a better idea. Also: Possible support for the family tree: As the 13 Shocking Secrets document reminded us, Josephine Anwhistle told us that her mother-in-law - Ike and Gregor's mother - had one eyebrow. Since both Jacques and Olaf have a unibrow, it's been suggested this is a family trait, and if the Anwhistle mother had this trait as well, it would suggest that branch of the family is related to the Snickets and to Olaf. And, a third way of looking at the family tree which I came up with just now: It's various V.F.D. families - or rather, sets of three siblings - linked to one another in a pretty pattern which is completely arbitrary. This allows everyone to be right in some way, while scrapping all the flaws (Snicket's father wasn't E., why is Ernest linked to the Snickets etc.). It is itself flawed, though, in that it's a cop-out theory that basically admits there's nothing we can get from the family tree about the Snicket ancestry.
|
|
Antenora
Detriment Deleter ![*](//storage.proboards.com/253263/images/KgCqSplSkZMQmgAhTLyO.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/253263/images/KgCqSplSkZMQmgAhTLyO.png)
Fiendish Philologist
Put down that harpoon gun, in the name of these wonderful birds!
Posts: 15,891
Likes: 113
|
Post by Antenora on Apr 14, 2006 14:11:43 GMT -5
I've entertained a notion rather similar to Dante's last theory--that the initials on the family tree aren't really those of the people involved, but were added arbitrarily, as a code of sorts, for convenience in making lists, or some such thing. Sort of an extension of the Elwin-known-as-Jacob theory, and also kind of a cop-out.
And I agree that the Snickets might have changed their last name for some reason related to protecting themselves, or avoiding being associated with an enemy, and that Hal is possibly H on the tree, brother of Gregor and Ike.
|
|
|
Post by Ernest D on Apr 14, 2006 15:11:28 GMT -5
Is it possible that some of the family tree could be due to incest?
|
|
|
Post by Dante on Apr 14, 2006 15:13:50 GMT -5
Is it possible that some of the family tree could be due to incest? ...Any specific suggestions as to where this might apply? I imagine it might produce some weird branches. Um, I mean, let's leave the incest to Watch Your Mouth. ...And fanfiction.
|
|
|
Post by freeeagle on Apr 14, 2006 15:43:00 GMT -5
I'm glad that people actually agree with my theory, or at least part of it! Hal may be a better contender for the role of H. H may also be someone who we haven't yet met. I like to think that everything Lemony Snicket writes will eventually make sense, although I may sound slightly naive. I personally don't like the "Elwyn known as Jacob" theory. For my reasons, see my modified theory above.
|
|
|
Post by Hanae on Apr 16, 2006 10:43:23 GMT -5
Ahem, I have just noticed something that I would like to mention. If you start at the 2 branchs to the left they are A and B. Then C is the next one on the branch that later branches off into more branches. After that you see the letters D, E, and F branching off. And finally branchinc off of those letters you can see the letters G, H , I, J, K, L, M, N, and O. Together in that order it is alphabetical: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, and O.
However at the bottom of the paper in the...er...we'll call it the "key" there is what looks like a letter V next to the word volunteer. Although, we all know verey well that there is not a letter V on the paper. So, perhaps this is only part of the family tree.... or perhaps it is some sort of unknown code.
|
|
|
Post by Dante on Apr 16, 2006 11:21:48 GMT -5
I thought that last part could have been thrown in to tease us / be cryptic. It's worth noting that it only has "V." rather than, say, "V.F.D." though, so it's unlikely that the curled-up part of the page is hiding any further elaboration on that particular initial. Maybe it had another F. and D. below it which we can't see. Maybe, as you suggested, we only have half the diagram there (although only the bottom looks torn). I theorised, a long time ago, that the inclusion of that initial could be an indication that the diagram was drawn up by a volunteer (a volunteer genealogist, if you like). If half the people on that family tree are who we think they are, then the family has lots of connections to V.F.D.
|
|
|
Post by joker on Apr 18, 2006 20:22:48 GMT -5
I find something very peculiar about the picture. So, I'm gonna find all the things in the pic that could be clues... Wouldn't you say it looks a bit like Nevermore Tree? If those aren't floating leaves, then they are crow feathers, or leaves disturbed from crows. Hmm... Also, an owl rests on the branch of E. That would mean that E would be very wise, if you go by the Greek God Athena. A noose hangs from O, so obviously it's Olaf. A woodpecker is pecking on the B trunk, so maybe B was wise with wood or crafts or maybe just annoying... Back to O, you notice all other branches have leaves on the end, therefore you can't have more to add. But O doesn't have an end from the ripped paper, so maybe the person who didn't want this to be seen ripped it.... BACK TO NEVERMORE TREE AND CROWS! You notice that it looks similar to Nevermore tree and crows, so maybe this was among the Quagmire's papers thatwere ripped apart with Esme's harpoon gun in VV! Perhaps if we interpreted this backwards, it might make sense... Okay, so we have G,H,I over D (considering this rank and file) so Gregor, Ike and Hal/Hector would be over Dewey, and that would make sense considering they like underwater stuff (Ike=Lachrymose, Gregor=Anwhistle Aquatics, Hal/Hector= ![???](//storage.proboards.com/253263/images/qGNtlxinoYxtXmqaOXaR.gif) Dewey: Underwater library) so maybe they told him about it and stuff and he is their neophyte Next we have J K L over E. Hmm. Jacques, Lemony and Kit over Esme or Ernest. Makes sense, considering after the shcism Esme turned, and that would conclude why Esme has a history with Lemony/Beatrice and know's V.F.D alot. Ernest, same thing excluding the history. Okay, O,N,M over F. F can be Fernald, Fiona or Frank. Im taking Frank out for now and I'm, putting in Fernald. Fernald would make sense, considering MWBBNH and WWHBNB are N and M, then that would explain why Fernald has a history withthem and Widdershins. Maybe since N and M like animals so much, they released the manatee on Mrs. Widderhins and framed it on Cap'n Widderhsins, so that's why he doesn't like him and that's why he is under Olaf for believing his stepdad did it and that Olaf and M and N tried to save it, and that's why he's tempted to go back to the light after possibly learning the truth. Hmm.... Under them all: Chas Snicket. Now, Chas might have been a new neyophyte or something, so that stumps me. B and A- ![???](//storage.proboards.com/253263/images/qGNtlxinoYxtXmqaOXaR.gif) ? Bertrand is obviously Baud's dad, so that might be how they are realted to Lemony in some odd way- serving under him. A_ Arthur Poe. A spy maybe? Thta's maybe why he doesn't know all because he is a WAY underling in ranks, and therefore may have even be fooled by Esme to join the Fire starteing side of V.F.D: Through his sis, Eleanora. It would be perfect: Poe believes his sis, Poe tells Bauds where to go. Easy for Esme to get Bauds. Troubling....thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by Dante on Apr 19, 2006 2:28:44 GMT -5
On the B. note: Some people have concluded that it could be Beatrice, on the grounds that woodpeckers only peck at dead wood. I don't know if that's true or not. As for the noose on the O branch, on the old version of LemonySnicket.com, then a noose was the icon for a page about Count Olaf.
As for the others: I think you're pulling at straws, but since I disagree with your interpretation, I would, wouldn't I? However, why would the Snickets be over Ernest, if it was Ernest, since Kit and Jacques (who are twins) are the same age as him (both Kit and Dewey having given the date of the schism as being when they were four years old)? Actually, I can't remember the precise quotation, but if it was the part where Dewey was talking about his birthday party, it was his fifth, so the Denouements might even be older than the Snickets. Plus there's the fact that you're really just putting in any old characters whose names happen to begin with the right letter and ignoring any siblings they might have. If F is Fernald or Fiona, then where's Fiona or Fernald? Why would Dewey, Ernest/Esmé and Frank/Fiona be in charge of Chas. Snicket?
|
|
Antenora
Detriment Deleter ![*](//storage.proboards.com/253263/images/KgCqSplSkZMQmgAhTLyO.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/253263/images/KgCqSplSkZMQmgAhTLyO.png)
Fiendish Philologist
Put down that harpoon gun, in the name of these wonderful birds!
Posts: 15,891
Likes: 113
|
Post by Antenora on Apr 19, 2006 7:14:01 GMT -5
On the B. note: Some people have concluded that it could be Beatrice, on the grounds that woodpeckers only peck at dead wood. I don't know if that's true or not. I've seen woodpeckers, and I don't think that's true. And if all we know is that B is a dead branch, it could be practically anyone who's dead and whose name happens to start with B--Bertrand, maybe. My personal suspicion is that it could represent the entire Baudelaire family(or some Baudelaire grandfather/grandmother), whose individual members are on subbranches concealed in the leaves.
|
|
|
Post by Hanae on Apr 19, 2006 17:14:29 GMT -5
I think Antenora has a good point.
|
|