The Official Beatrice Letters DISCUSSION thread

[Dear Dairy]

FYI, Mike T, Emma Montana McElroy was an 8 year old girl who won a contest of poetry based on ASoUE, as your link indicates. She's a real person.

I don't think there's a clue, but I like the way he links the series through the butterfly and the bats.

As for R., it seems true, as indicated in LSUA, that the Duchess of Winnipeg has been replaced by an imposter, at least in correspondence. *sigh* Poor R - I fear the worst . . .

[wingalls]

agnes said:

After reading through the notes again I find it highly unlikely that BB1 is the Baudelaire mother. If their mother is a Beatrice than she is not one of the ones writing letters.

When I read LS's note at the end about having letters from 2 Beatrices I went back through the notes to try and figure out which notes came from which BB. It looks to me that all of the notes are similar (most likely from the same person - BB2) except BB to LS 6. This note is a different style and is very similar to the LS to BB 1. If you look closely at the writing the handwriting is also different in this one (note the uppercase B). That makes me think that BB to LS 6 is actually a note from BB1 that was written when she was younger (aged 10 according to the note).

philipjucker said:

I agree. It's the only note we have from BB1.

I disagree. This note is not from BB1. Note the address (14th floor of the Rhetorical Building). This is the same office as described in the "Days of Awe" letter. Also the letter-head is the same.

None of the letters are from Beatrice #1.

Note: After slogging through 7 pages of this thread, I felt I had to reply at this point. My apologies if the subject was already covered in pages 8 through 10.

[idoki]

After spending a large chunk of my day skimming through the thread, I must say that I am rather disappointed by this discussion. First of all, to those who have decided to post without reading through everything else, please do not write in large letters saying LIEK ZOMG I FIGURED OUT A NEW ANAGRAM, like the member who suddenly decided that "batineer sank" was so revoluntionary, even though it has been mentioned many many times that batineer is not a word, but an anagram for Beatrice. I am also disappointed by some of the off topic remarks made that could be directed in other threads. Lastly, there has been WAY too much speculation over who Beatrice(s) is/are. Perhaps new things should be addressed. I particularily liked the comment made by someone that there could be a possible Sebald Code hidden in one of the letters (which ended up decoded as: His carefully ).

As for the Beatrice Letters, they have much symbolism and hidden meaning, all which applies to the Baudelaire mystery. No one person is correct, nor is one person wrong. I believe that much speculation can be made, but please, do this with maturity. I have many ideas from the Beatrice Letters, but I am unable to regugitate them all at the same time. For now, I would like to give my opinion on who Beatrice is.

It is obvious there is a Beatrice whom Lemony loved. There is also a Beatrice who is searching for her siblings (?). There is also the ship, presumably named Beatrice. Perhaps there are three Beatrices. Perhaps two. Perhaps only one. From reading what others have noticed, I see a lot of evidence that Beatrice could very well be a twin of Sunny, who may have been in a similar situation as Quigley. Evidence towards this includes the peppermint allergy, the reference to being a sibling of the Baudelaires, the fact that she has an early bedtime, as well as others I cannot pinpoint at this moment in time.

Keep in mind all the comments Lemony Snicket has made about Beatrice, including the terrible crime he helped her commit, as well as the fires. There is just too much to speculate about.

EDIT: As for the initials mentioned throughout the Beatrice Letters, they can often refer to different people. For example, J could stand for quite a few people. O obviously stands for Olaf.

[Libitina]

Good gracious, idoki, who are you to come in and say that our discussion isn't good enough for you? These things take time; we're not going to figure everything out at once, and it only makes sense to focus on one thing at a time. Also, if you think we're spending too much time discussing who the Beatrices were, why did you choose to address that issue first? If you want to start new discussion, propose a different part of TBL and post your theories. And there are obviously at least two Beatrices (not one, as you said might be possible), as Mr. Snicket stated himself in his letter at the end. Did you even finish reading the book? Or at least all of this thread?

[idoki]

I'm sorry, but I should have added the word "some" into that first sentence of mine. A lot of the discussion was very insightful, but before long, I felt as if I was reading the same thing over and over again. The same points are being brought up and although some people make the effort to summarize what has been discussed, those posts are rather ignored, and are instead replaced by more repetitions. I'm not saying that discussing Beatrice's identity is a bad idea, I meant to say that it should move away from the things that have been mentioned time and time again.

Edited: As for the part where I said one Beatrice, I was just using that as an example that anything could happen. I think that at the moment, there is only one Beatrice. One is dead, one is alive.

[maralenenok]

idoki said:

I'm sorry, but I should have added the word "some" into that first sentence of mine. A lot of the discussion was very insightful, but before long, I felt as if I was reading the same thing over and over again.

Asking people to cater to your preferences in discussion material tends to 1) sound a wee bit entitled, 2) be unproductive, and 3) piss people off. If there is a particular subject you'd like to discuss, why don't you go ahead and do it? Everyone will be happy to hear a new idea.

And considering that the book is about, y'know, the identity of Beatrice, are you seriously surprised that most of the discussion concerns it?

[Dear Dairy]

OK, then, Idoki, what are your thoughts on the supposedly coded sonnet? That one has us all stumped. I'd love to discuss that. I've done some research to see if it contains a Verse Fluctuation Device, but have had no luck so far.

I'm also interested in people's speculations about the identity of Beatrice 1's co-star. Any thoughts?

[PJ]

wingalls said:

Note: After slogging through 7 pages of this thread, I felt I had to reply at this point. My apologies if the subject was already covered in pages 8 through 10.

It was. On page 7 Gigi convinced me otherwise, and I rescinded my earlier statement.

And damnit. I was going to point out that a book entitled the Beatrice Letters would be Beatrice-centric! Oh well, there'll be other opportunities for pwnage.

Once again, Gigi has proved me wrong. Beatrice 2 can't be the survivor of the fire, unless it's the wrong city, which is highly unlikely.

Oh! And if she's a sibling, she must have been born some other place, as well. Just thought I'd say that.

As for the only interesting thing said, the fact that Beatrice 2 may be Sunny's twin...quite interesting. Though that would reduce the chance of her spending time with them in The End, unless it progresses over several years, which, considering the series' past, is hardly likely. I mean, I can see a young child venturing out and being all "omg, I'm your family!" But a toddler? Bah. And there's also the thing with Violet being like 11 years older than Sunny. Which means that if the mother had twins, she would likely remember it, unless they hid the twin for some bizarre reason.

Perhaps they'll find Beatrice 2 stranded on the island? Like, the ship she was on with her parents (Prospero?) was attacked (FFP?) and she's the only survivor, or something.

[idoki]

The sonnet intrigued me. It is written as sonnets usually are, fourteen lines which have a rhythmic pattern in iambic pentameter. The line that stuck out to me was the first line in the second stanza. "In the play, my role is baticeer,". This line has nine syllables, where as the other eleven have ten. Although it has only nine syllables, it follows iambic pentameter if another syllable is added in before "In".

My guess about Beatrice's co-star is that he would end up becoming her husband, I'm not sure if that is mentioned in the letters at all.

I apologize to those who think my first post was rash and unnecessary. I do agree that I worded things terribly badly, but the jist of my opinion was still relayed. I was upset by those few people who made out of place comments, or continued to bring up the same points. I like to see discussions that are moving in a direction. I hope that by being here, I can add to the discussion, instead of enraging people by my opinions.

edit: maralenenok: I did not demand that the discussion should be changed to the way I liked it, I was voicing my opinions, as everyone else is voicing their own.

[maralenenok]

deardairy2 said:

I'm also interested in people's speculations about the identity of Beatrice 1's co-star. Any thoughts?

He isn't Olaf, but another volunteer on the other side of the schism. Uh... that's something, right? I'm in the middle of moving and all my books are packed up, so I can't look through TUA, but I remember there were lots of Lemony's theatrical reviews in it. Some obviously referred to Olaf, but maybe he mentioned Beatrice's co-star there?

Brae-man. Why would Snicket use the obscure "brae" to refer to a hill unless it has linguistic significance? BB to LS #3 has the words "a brae-man" in quotes just like I wrote it, which seems very odd --- why would "a" be included in the quotes as part of the phrase? It made me think that perhaps "a brae-man" is an anagram in and of itself --- perhaps the name of the co-star? If Beatrice's role, "baticeer," is an anagram of her name, perhaps "(a) brae-man" is an anagram of a male name? I'll tinker with it and see what I can come up with.

ETA:

idoki said:

edit: maralenenok: I did not demand that the discussion should be changed to the way I liked it, I was voicing my opinions, as everyone else is voicing their own.

Okay, I see. Your post came off as "Why aren't you discussing things that interest me?", and people reacted to that, but I'm sure there are no hard feelings. (But for the future, voicing one's opinions and saying something asshattish aren't mutually exclusive. This isn't the case here, clearly, but you should be aware of that.)

[idoki]

Just something that I recalled from TEE, that Olaf and Esme were in acting at some point in their lives?

[invaderkrag]

idoki said:

The sonnet intrigued me. It is written as sonnets usually are, fourteen lines which have a rhythmic pattern in iambic pentameter. The line that stuck out to me was the first line in the second stanza. "In the play, my role is baticeer,". This line has nine syllables, where as the other eleven have ten. Although it has only nine syllables, it follows iambic pentameter if another syllable is added in before "In".

I did mention this earlier in the thread. My conclusion was that it was insignificant - many sonnets are written with select 9-syllable lines.

One of the things I would like to see discussed is the meaning of the references to having to untie "my silence knot." We know that's an anagram for lemony snicket - but in that light, what does it mean?

[maralenenok]

invaderkrag said:

One of the things I would like to see discussed is the meaning of the references to having to untie "my silence knot." We know that's an anagram for lemony snicket - but in that light, what does it mean?

I have several thoughts about it.

1. The phrase serves as a way for Lemony and Beatrice to indicate that the letters they write to each other are indeed from them, and not from an imposter. I think the word "baticeer" also serves the same purpose. Seems a bit ineffective to me, Beatrice 2 uses it freely, but hey. (Maybe there is a reason for that?)

2. Lines 1 and 2 of the sonnet are reminiscent of Violet tying up her hair in a ribbon. It leads me to think that "my silence knot"has a literal significance as part of Beatrice's costume for the play. What role the hatpin plays in this, I have no clue.

3. Anyway, the symbolic significance of tying "my silence knot" is keeping "my love out of my eyes" -- keeping calm and rational in spite of strong emotions. It sounds like rejecting Lemony was indeed a difficult decision that Beatrice nonetheless thought the only sane choice, no matter how much she may have loved him -- a decision she was able to make once she consciously put aside her emotions and tied up her hair, like Violet.

4. Then, from this interpretation it follows that untying "my silence knot" signifies permitting oneself to feel as opposed to think. To spend time inside "my silence knot" means to daydream, appeals to untie it are pleas for empathy. Every piece of correspondence seems to use it a little differently, but I think this interpretation holds out.

5. Untying "my silence knot" at the end of the play and sonnet clearly didn't work out for Beatrice's character, which makes me think that it also played a role in Beatrice's actual death.

[Dear Dairy]

For what it's worth, "my silence knot" seems linked to the idea of "The world is quiet here," and also brings to mind the knots tied by the FFP.

I like your romantic interpretation of some of the sonnet's lines, maralenenok, especially in point #2. The knot tied in the hair indeed reminds us of Violet. However, I've been thinking about several different interpretations of the second line. The phrase "to keep my love out of my eyes" could mean that she never wants to see Lemony again. She must be silent about her love for Lemony because other forces come between them.

On the other hand, knowing that Lemony could be an unreliable narrator, has anyone considered the idea that Lemony's love for Beatrice was not returned? We have nothing in Beatrice's words saying that she ever loved him or even dated him. Could the sonnet be interpreted with a more sarcastic or ironic tone? In line 2, "As if to keep my love out of my eyes" could mean she can't stand the sight of him! Her silence is an attempt to give him the cold shoulder.

The long, sad response to Beatrice's 200 page letter (I forget the number) indicated that Beatrice put a note, perhaps the sonnet, inside the program of the play on the same night that she dropped the hatpin. He says that he never got the message. If he had received the message, could it have been a coded note telling him, essentially, to drop dead and leave her alone?

This idea is really far-fetched, I know, but it's what I've been thinking about a lot lately.

I definitely need to take another look.

EDIT: In addition to interpreting the sonnet itself, we should be looking for a coded message. Promos for TBL definitely indicate "coded sonnets."

[lauren]

Hi people. I’ve just finished rereading the letters and reading through the posts in this discussion so I’ll try not to bore you all and be repetitive. Firstly I like your idea about the unrequited love between Lemony and Beatrice, Dear Dairy. It would make a great storyline, the only thing I can think of that could challenge this theory is the fact that she originally had intentions to marry Snicket, although this fact was stated by Lemony himself so it could be fantasy rather than fact.

Anyways, as for my own theory, I agree with a proposal suggested in this thread that the younger Beatrice is the Bauudelaire’s half sister and I’m still convinced the older Beatrice is the mother of Violet, Klaus and Sunny. If this were so, I believe Younger Beatrice is the daughter of older Beatrice and Lemony, and younger Beatrice was conceived before the Baudelaire trio. I assume older Beatrice had to disassociate herself from her daughter and Lemony for her own safety and for their safety too. Younger Beatrice was probably put in an orphanage and later finds out about her family background. Lemony can’t tell little Beatrice that he is her father and cannot meet up with her because it just so happens that almost everyone associated with Snicket has died in previous books.

Well that’s all I have to say for now without being repetitive, so I’ll come and check up again later.