The Official Beatrice Letters DISCUSSION thread

[Stencil Monkey]

jman said:

In LS to BB #4, there is a coffee mug stain, indicating that some villanous person has read it. The letter was missent to someone (I think it's R...but the writing is weird). Could this mean that R. is villanous? And perhaps she intercepted the message on purpose, instead of because of the bats' lack of training?


In TUA (in chapter 2) Snicket suspects that an imposter has taken over R's identity. Connection? Seems likely. What do you think?This could actually be a very crucial fact in the series. There has been a reference to R. in books 10,11 and 12 at least, and I think he's trying to tell us something! Please discuss.

Seems flawless.

If all the Snicket letters were from Lemony, and all the Beatrice letters were sent from Beatrice 2, than explain the letters (as in a-z) they sent back and forth? If they were sent in even the same decade.

After reading TBL a second time, I have so many questions.

[PJ]

efogoto said:

I noticed that the Beatrice writing in TBL said that she shares initials with someone else, but not that she shared a name with someone else. This leaves the possibility (probability?) that the elder Beatrice had a different last name.

Yes, her maiden name, which she lost when she was married to Mr. Baudelaire.

Ok, I've been thinking about things. If Beatrice 2 really is 10 years old sometime after the events in the End, then that would place her somewhere between Klaus and Sunny. Violet, at the time, would have to be at least 5 years old at the time, and would almost certainly remember that she had a sibling, or that her mother was pregnant. Which means she can't really be their sibling. Well, it's possible, just not very plausable.

That's assuming she's ten years old. She seems quite resourceful and intelligent for a mere ten year old, but then again Sunny is resourceful and intelligent and she's just passed out of infanthood. So it's entirely possible.

Also assuming she's 10, she couldn't really be their aunt, as she'd have to be like 20 or 30 years younger than her older brother, Bertrand (although we don't know his age. Violet is 15, so when he had her, he must have been a mature, married adult, which would make him, with our laws, at the very least 32, which would still be 22 years older, which seems kinda dodgy). So the only really logical family member she could be is their cousin. Or second cousin, once removed, or something like that. On the father's side, that is, unless one of the mothers' siblings happened to marry someone else called Baudelaire.

I've also thought, Beatrice 2 could very well be the "survivor of the fire" mentioned in the Snicket File, although she'd have to be at the Baudelaire mansion at the time it burnt down, and the photograph on the page doesn't really make sense if she's the survivor.

Speaking of, since we have new evidence to believe that Beatrice 1 is the Baudmum, she is the most likely survivor, and so would still be alive after the fire of the Baudelaire Mansion, although she may have perished since then. Perhaps the Baudelaires will meet both Beatrices in the End? I doubt it...I think they'll meet Beatrice 2, cos for some reason, I've lost my enthusiasm for the "Beatrice 1 will die at the end of the End" theory. Perhaps because there already will be one Beatrice in the End (probably), and two would be...weird.

Also, thanks for pointing out the dragon-fly/butter-fly thing.

And the R. traitor thing also fits, though there's not much evidence at all for any of this...at the moment, it's purely speculation.

[superorange]

You can be an aunt and be younger.

And yet again, in TGG "The woman Lemony loved" and "The Baudelaire's parents" are listed as seperate people in a list of 3. And Lemony ALWAYS loved Beatrice, and even if he stopped, that wouldn't make it correct to list them as seperate people.

[Flaneur]

New puzzlement, hooray! The long awaited book arrives! But to my mind, nothing will really be solved or accrue overmuch importance until The End (if certain suspicions do not prove to be not merely the product of suspicious minds) comes out.

The two most disappointing things about this book, I feel, are that it does not really change anything - it merely tacks on more mysteries to the perpetually mysterious mysterious we've previously been perplexed by - and that our Beatrice, the Beatrice, Beatrice I, continues to be silent.

On inspiration from BB to LS #3 - "yet another letter for my collection, including the letters of your initials, the letters I found in your office, and the letters I write you" - I added LS to the assortment of anagramming letters, and was able to produce the words "Snicket brae-lass" (minus the hyphen). Any thoughts?

I feel certain that we will hear more of Beatrice II in book the thirteenth, possibly even meeting her, although she cannot be very old when we do, and maybe we'll hear of Beatrice I also. I currently have the conflicting feelings of Beatrice I being the Baudelaire mother as we always suspected ("like peppermints love your allergies"!!) and of Beatrice I being Beatrice II's mom (she has so many things that she would've gotten from her - the ring, the baticeerness, the echoes of words, the location of the root beer float place although she's forgotten it). I don't know what is true. However, I do definitely feel that Beatrice II has met the Baudelaires, in her past, and is ten at a time in the book-Bauds' future, possibly now. She seems to have contacted him during the time of his researching book the thirteenth (him being at the brae, which I feel is on the island, with the sheep).
Lemony Snicket seems to have been as surprised as we were by the advent of the second Beatrice.

Those are frightening thoughts about R. I really worry about her. This goes in hand with my increasing dread over the course of this book, with the headings of the letters, and the remembrance of the warning that "Many individuals with the same initials can lead to much injustice."

For the crazy theory side of the world, at separate points during this book I was overcome with despair that
1) insanity has finally won out and time warp as a fact of life had\s been cemented into the necessary reality of the aSoUE universe
2) poor Beatrice has succumbed to some fell bump and contracted amnesia, plunging her into a retrograde to being eight years of age
3) Daniel Handler finally lost it and was having boats write letters and follow poor Mr. Snicket around the globe
4) Mr. Snicket is revealed to be a psychic.
Currently my dread is coming mainly from the feeling that Mr. Handler has read more of our fanfiction than could ever be considered healthy.

EDIT:

superorange said:

You can be an aunt and be younger.

It's true; my best friend is the aunt of a nephew two years older than her. I must point out that this is by adoption, but it could also happen without it.

[Gigi]

philipjucker said:

[Ok, I've been thinking about things. If Beatrice 2 really is 10 years old sometime after the events in the End, then that would place her somewhere between Klaus and Sunny. Violet, at the time, would have to be at least 5 years old at the time, and would almost certainly remember that she had a sibling, or that her mother was pregnant. Which means she can't really be their sibling. Well, it's possible, just not very plausable.

If Mr. Baudelaire had an affair and fathered a child between the ages of Klaus and Sunny, that child would most likely carry his last name, and because it was an affair, the other children would not necessarily have known about the child. This could explain the name being the same, the age be right and the children not know. If Mr. Baudelaire visited the child, he may even tell them about sisters and brother that he/she has, but not be able to see them.

Of course, all that is a lot of ifs. But I think it is completely plausible.

[PJ]

If it was an affair, why would the child inherit his name? Doesn't really make sense. Besides, affairs? In Asoue? I don't think so.

And sure, aunts can be younger. But in this case, they'd have to be younger than Klaus, so the age gap between Beatrice 2 and Bertrand would have to be pretty big, which is somewhat unlikely.

[Gigi]

If a man fathers a child during an affair, and he is a responsible man who will support the child, that child may very likely take his name. It is his child after all.

[katekor]

I agree with you Gigi. Never thought of it like that though. I don't know if he would put an affair in his book, but it definitely makes sense. I wonder with who though.

[MikeT]

philipjucker said:

I've also thought, Beatrice 2 could very well be the "survivor of the fire" mentioned in the Snicket File, although she'd have to be at the Baudelaire mansion at the time it burnt down, and the photograph on the page doesn't really make sense if she's the survivor.

Aw poo, I've read through 9 pages to say that. Nobody has mentioned it. But think about it.. everything thought it was a mistake and referred to Quigley.. but Hal was pretty protective over the library, and he wouldn't have things in the wrong place. No, I think that piece of paper was in the Baudelaire file for a reason. And I'm thinking it possibly relates to Beatrice 2.

So yeah, I got this book on Wednesday, two days after it came out because NO WHERE had it. Then Waterstones got them in, yay! I read it really quick and then re-read it. And I popped out the letter C. I wanted to see if they made a message when you looked through them. But now I wish I hadn't. I might pop them all out and store them in the file.

What somebody mentioned earlier with the file.. "Letters" and "Letters" .. somebody said one section was for the BB to LS letters to go, and the other LS to BB. What I assumed from this was that one Letters part was for the Beatrice Letters to go ... and the other section for the popped out Letters. This follows the confusion throughout the whole book on whether they're written letters, or letters of the alphabet.

What else I had a theory on was that I'm almost sure that Beatrice 1 is Beatrice 2's mother. I mean, all the way through this book I was thinking why on earth a 10-year-old girl would have a card with her name on. Presuming that Beatrice 2 did write the end card to Lemony apologising for his embarrassment, then the card has to belong to another Beatrice Baudelaire - I'm thinking Beatrice 1, the baticeer. Presumably her mother's, and since they share their name, it doesn't matter whether or not she uses one of her cards. Plus, why would she have her own office. I also thought this on BB to LS #5. So yeah, that's what I basically think.

There's also something else.. it's probably REALLY far removed, especially as Book 4 was written before DH came up with the storyline fully right? But the dedication in the front of TMM is:

To Beatrice –
My love flew like a butterfly
Until death swooped down like a bat
As the poet Emma Montana McElroy said;
"That's the end of that."

Could this be a clue? Who is Emma Montana McElroy? There is a poem written by her here.. but perhaps she won a competition or something. I'm not sure. The bat thing could be pure coincidence too.

I was thinking where the poster could be first. I thought it was TGG until my mate at school reminded me that was somewhere totally different. Then perhaps Curdled Cave. Then I remembered the map in TUA (Pg. 150-151).. the only steam-emitting building is the Horse Radish Factory. Unless of course it's Lucky Smells. Not sure, but I'm pretty sure this is looking out onto the main area the books were located in TBB and TEE.. So I pretty much settled on Curdled Cave, which means Carmelita's boat will bring Olaf, Violet, Klaus and Sunny back to where they came from.. i.e. Briny Beach, where Violet will visit again. Right? *breathes* Of course, this could be WAY off.

I'm not sure what I remember either. I had a brief image of Beatrice 2 being the child of Beatrice 1 but by Bertrand, and I cannot even remember the theory it was so stupid. Erm.. but I still think that B2 is B1's daughter. But I'm still not entirely convinved that B1 is the Baudelaire's mother.

EDIT: I've just had another thought about the Miserable Mill theory. His love was like a butterfly, linking to the butterfly costume Beatrice 1 wore in The Silence Knot.. and the bat, linking to the baticeer. Maybe DH planned all of this much earlier than we thought.

[Gigi]

As to Beatrice 2 being the survivor of the fire, in BB to LS #2, she is writing from his office and mentions that this is the first time she has been in the city. So, she couldn't have been at the Baud mansion when it burned down.

[maralenenok]

I'm still convinced Beatrice 1 is the Baudelaires' mother. From LS to BB #5:

"I will love you as a battlefield loves young men and as peppermints love your allergies."

Of course, she could be related to the Baudelaire orphans in some other way, but to me, that bit is very, very convincing.

I really like the idea expressed upthread that a villain has taken over R's identity. (I hope R isn't villainous herself, because I rather like her.) It's a pretty brilliant explanation of the coffee stain in LS to BB #4.

[MikeT]

dgrune said:

As to Beatrice 2 being the survivor of the fire, in BB to LS #2, she is writing from his office and mentions that this is the first time she has been in the city. So, she couldn't have been at the Baud mansion when it burned down.

Is Lemony's office definately in the same city? Oh wait, he works with Elenorea Poe right, so most likely..

[Libitina]

maralenenok said:

I'm still convinced Beatrice 1 is the Baudelaires' mother. From LS to BB #5:

"I will love you as a battlefield loves young men and as peppermints love your allergies."

Of course, she could be related to the Baudelaire orphans in some other way, but to me, that bit is very, very convincing.

Having similar allergies does not mean that Beatrice 1 mothered Violet, Klaus, and Sunny. It could suggest she was related in some way to them, like you said, but not even necessarily that. Of course, it is implied, but it could be a red herring.

Oh, and the bit about R. is brilliant and really fits; I agree.

[MikeT]

But then again.. Lemony referred to M (Monty) and J (Josephine) in Answer 9.. so why couldn't the other things be fact and related to other parts of the series...

[Linda Rhaldeen]

I really, really wish I was able to hold the book and have as much time as I want to reread it. I've read the entire thing, so I know what people are talking about in this thread, but I had approximately 25 minutes to read it and so I just read it as quickly as possible, and really haven't been able to contribute anything to this thread. However, based on what I already knew before reading TBL, what I remember from reading it, and what people have said in this thread, I'm inclined to believe that Beatrice 2 is a cousin of theirs, and I still haven't been able to decide who Beatrice 1 is. Yes, there is evidence pointing to her as the Baud's mom, but I've been against that theory for years, and don't want to concede.