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Post by Sailor Bellairs on May 23, 2008 14:34:37 GMT -5
I have looked around and couldn't find a thread about this so...
I have heard on other threads that aunt Josephine is still alive and that this was hinted in the Grim Grotto. Can anyone tell me what this hint is?
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Post by Dante on May 23, 2008 14:47:34 GMT -5
TGG doesn't specifically hint that Josephine is alive - nowhere does. However, there is a certain unidentified character who could, in theory, be Josephine if she survived. I think that's the speculation being referred to.
Basically, Josephine's body was never found. Her lifejackets were found, but no remains. One presumes she would have been entirely eaten by the Lachrymose Leeches, but similarly, she could have somehow escaped her fate. Captain Widdershins and Fiona rescued some of her library from the remains of her home, and had in fact patrolled Lake Lachrymose for years, so it's possible that she got help from them, but neither say anything to imply that Josephine survived, and they would surely have said so.
The role in question is that of the mysterious "swimming woman" alluded to in The Grim Grotto's Chapter Six - "[The Baudelaires] might have gazed upward and seen the sharp angles of various Vertical Flame Diversions and other secret passageways that once led all the way up to the marine research center and rhetorical advice service, or even spotted the person who was using one of the passageways now, and probably for the last time, as she made her difficult and dark way toward the Queequeg" - and Chapter Thirteen - "[Captain Widdershins]was wrong to abandon the Queequeg, no matter what he heard from the woman who came to fetch him." This may also have been the person who retrieved the sugar bowl from Gorgonian Grotto, but probably not. Chapter Seven mentions "journeying through a dark cave filled with a poisonous fungus in order to search for an object that was taken away quite some time before", but that's not "recently," it's "quite some time," and the swimming woman had just beaten the Baudelaires, so it wasn't her. TPP mentions two individuals who, in my opinion, are the same swimming woman. Whether or not Josephine's age prevents her from performing such adept swimming in dangerous circumstances is up to you.
Personally, I think that if Josephine did survive the events of TWW, she would have changed her outlook on life and decided to live every day recklessly and courageously, as though it might be her last.
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Post by F*** THE DAILY MAIL on May 24, 2008 12:23:28 GMT -5
I doubt that the leeches completely ate her- in my opinion, if she died, she drowned. For both sides of the arguement (though this isn't an arguement), here's some evidence proving she's dead:
-I assure you that Aunt Josephine is not dead.
Not yet.- Lemony Snicket, TWW.
- Both life jackets were left behins- Josephine had two one if I'm not mistaken.
- Josephine would probably want to be with Ike- and she was afraid of basically everything...
- They were deep in the lake, not close at all to the dock, whch would be pretty hard to swim to.
- If he [Handler] didn't think of a thirteen volume series while writing TWW, he wouldn't plan on Josephine being alive (most likely).
If you think she's alive, then:
- TWW to TAA is a decent amount of time for her to go far- sailors found the life jackets at the end of TAA.
- Not all of the Baudelaire's relatives died.
- Count Olaf is wanted for attempted murder...he tried to murder basically all the good characters, but Josephine could be included in the attempted muder.
- "She's a good swimmer- pretty sure Violet said that in TWW.
- Other boats.
- The passageway and swimming woman, as Dante said.
- The Baudlaires found food in the grotto, and Josephine could've easily aswell found food and sme things nessacary for living.
- Is it possible for Captain Widdershins to have seen Josephine, tried to help her, and thought that it's be so quick and easy, he wouldn't have to write a note for the Baudelaires, but unfortunately something bad happened?
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Post by Kount Kelsey on Aug 29, 2008 18:00:05 GMT -5
even if the leeches didnt eather completely she would of sand by the time they were done.
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tmimicus8
Bewildered Beginner
S.O.S.
Posts: 6
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Post by tmimicus8 on Nov 16, 2008 2:18:36 GMT -5
who else could it possibly be? i don't think Snicket/Handler wouldn't identify her unless you could figure out who it was. it's his style throughout the series to leave little mystery-ettes here and there and they all go back to earlier books. true, there is a plethora of things that aren't ever explained, but i find it hard to believe that he would present a mysterious character without ever identifying him or her (her in this case). there would be no point in making it mysterious then.
it seems that for almost every character, the only thing...well, main thing...left a mystery about them is his or her fate. there aren't any that i can think of off of the top of my head whose identity is never revealed, especially of someone who plays a key role in the turning point of one of the books.
i can't say that i'm 100% sure it was aunt josephine in that vertical flame diversion, but until i hear a better explanation i think that is what i'm going to believe.
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Post by Hermes on Nov 16, 2008 14:57:34 GMT -5
Bear in mind that TGG is the book which introduces the Great Unknown. It is also the book in which Captain Widdershins says that there are things too terrible for young people to know; and Lemony later says that, while the Captain was wrong about a lot of things, he was right about that, because there are things too terrible for anyone to know. So I think that by the time he wrote this book, Handler had decided that some mysteries would be left unsolved. The questions that are left unanswered by the end aren't, mostly, meant to have definite answers; they are meant to stimulate readers to come up with ideas (as I think he suggested in an interview). So, it could be Josephine, because it makes an interesting story if it was; but I don't think that's meant to be the right answer to the exclusion of all others.
(As for people who aren't identified, what about the taxi driver and the woman who drove away with him, apparently taking the sugar bowl with them, in TPP? It seems very plausible that the taxi driver is Lemony Snicket, but I don't think we have any strong clues to the identity of the woman.)
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Post by Dante on Nov 17, 2008 4:20:15 GMT -5
(As for people who aren't identified, what about the taxi driver and the woman who drove away with him, apparently taking the sugar bowl with them, in TPP? It seems very plausible that the taxi driver is Lemony Snicket, but I don't think we have any strong clues to the identity of the woman.) Personally, I think that woman is the same swimming woman from TGG, and the same as the woman wearing a diving helmet and shiny suit mentioned at the start of Chapter Seven of TPP. You need skills and gear like that to retrieve tiny items that have fallen to the bottom of deep ponds. I'm not sure she'd bear any particular resemblance to Josephine in her actions, though. |
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Post by Kount Kelsey on Jan 25, 2009 21:12:39 GMT -5
heres a theory... the leeches ate at most of her but from the ingury she passed out and sank to the bottom and she never woke up.
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Post by cwm on Feb 1, 2009 9:39:28 GMT -5
That's sort of...still death, isn't it?
At any rate, I have yet to see somebody who was more than half eaten in the middle of a lake avoid death from massive blood loss.
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Post by Kount Kelsey on Feb 1, 2009 17:24:07 GMT -5
and she inhaled to much water and that got into her lungs
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Post by Very Funky Disco on Mar 27, 2009 21:21:37 GMT -5
My theory is that Josephine is dead. It would be pretty hard for her to avoid, if she was surrounded in the middle of the lake by a bunch of hungry and aggressive flesh-eating leeches. At that point, she probably no longer even cared. She probably felt wracked with guilt for failing the Baudelaires, coupled with missing Ike.
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Post by cwm on Mar 28, 2009 13:38:41 GMT -5
She shows very little remorse about the idea of abandoning the Baudelaires if it saves her own skin. She is utterly unconcerned about not bringing Captain Sham to justice if she gets to stay out of trouble. I doubt she felt regretful about the Baudelaires being left with Captain Sham.
The last part of TWW actually makes it really hard to sympathise with Josephine. I suppose this is an indication of guardians from Monty on the downturn, though; good, feet of clay, bad, worse, actually in league with Olaf...I'm not sure if the ignorant villagers in TVV are better or worse than Esme. THH would break the pattern anyway.
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Post by kougermasters on Apr 26, 2009 4:20:40 GMT -5
Josephine can't be alive; she's one of many characters that while it does not specifically describe her death, as that would be too horrid, as in the case of Doctor Orwell, we must assume that Josephine met a ghastly demise at the hands (or, in this case, teeth) of the leeches.
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Post by -Pepsi. on Apr 27, 2009 2:08:23 GMT -5
Unless something rescued her, like a boat or submarine, then I kind of doubt she's alive. Strong swimmer or not, it'd probably be very difficult to swim while being eaten by hungry leeches... The books aren't really realistic a lot of the time though so you never know I suppose.
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Post by violet on Apr 28, 2009 16:13:51 GMT -5
I doubt NCIS interrogated Olaf about Josephine's last whereabouts, rescued her from the water, and had Dr. House prevent any death by blood loss.
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