The Great 667 Re-Read - Final Part: The End

[Dante]

The End is here.

Discuss.

[Christmas Chief]

-Chapter 1-

Why does Klaus assume or think Kit is the bravest agent? He’s met others such as Jerome, Dewey...
Finding the beans in the boat is just luck, I think, and has nothing to do with V.F.D. And then Sunny tries to think of ways to make a tastier meal with just white beans and nothing else. I found this part rather humorous, because, obviously, no matter how you rearrange the beans, they’ll still be beans. However, I do admire Sunny’s optimism and creativity.
The Grotto deep in the Caspian Sea... I haven’t actually researched that. It may be a reference to a real-life predicament, but I can’t say.
“...it’s worse than that salad your parents used to make!” Now this is interesting. How does Olaf know of the salad the Baudelaire parents used to make? Later, it’s learned Olaf has more connections with V.F.D than originally thought, but I like this quote because it promotes my salads-are-connected-with-V.F.D.-theory.
Then the name of the boat comes to attention. The boat’s name it the Carmelita. It struck me as odd that Carmelita would want her name on a boat so plain and old. This makes me wonder whether it was done a prank, Carmelita just wanted her name on as many things as possible, or her parents too had a tradition of naming children after someone who had died, and it’s not Carmelita at all.

-Chapter 2-

The Baudelaires shipwreck on the coastal shelf, and I thought I might as well post the items there, just in case there’s a significance to any of them I’m missing and someone wants to refer to them: Pieces of jagged wood, long rope in complicated knots, heaps of seaweed, thousands of fish, seabirds; pieces of other boats-anchors, portholes, railings, masts, lanterns, smashed barrels, soaked documents, clothing, old typewriter, ornate bird cage, brass cannon, and a torn net caught in propeller blades. I don’t think there’s anything important to them; just to get across the idea there are all sorts of items that wash up on the island
Then, when deciding which way to go, Klaus makes the quote: “...we don’t know where we are or where we are going. We might as well head in any direction at all.” Since a few pages before a compass was referred to as both navigational and moral, I think this quote is referring to both as well, even though Klaus may not know it.
As they begin walking west, the Baudelaires and Count Olaf are referred to as “the three orphans and the one villain” but earlier, the Baudelaires are implied to be villains and we already know Olaf’s an orphan, so I’m not quite sure what Snicket’s getting at there.
Then who we learn to be Friday starts running towards them and Olaf says “If that’s Kit Snicket or some bratty orphan, I’ll harpoon her right where she stands.” So Olaf doesn’t know Kit’s an orphan? (Since he refers to her and the anonymous orphan as two separate people)
Friday approaches the Baudelaires and she’s wearing sunglasses “Very much like the ones the Baudelaires had worn as concierges” Either they are (which is the most probable solution), or they’re a similar pair from a V.F.D. disguise kit (it’s best to put all options out there).
And comes the conversation with Beatrice. I think this conversation is just another input from Snicket to show how vividly he remembers Beatrice, but I do want to point out Beatrice calls him “Mr. Snicket” not Lemony. So maybe they weren’t good friends at the time, or they were being careful in case they were being spied on. Unless the whole thing was a coincidence.
So Friday introduces herself, after a little push from Violet, and then the Baudelaires introduce themselves. My only question for this part is: Why does Olaf “glare at Friday suspiciously”? Does he recognize her face by her parents? But I suppose being a wanted criminal you’d have to be suspicious of everyone.
“What about me?” Olaf asks. I wonder if he’s asking himself or the others, because Friday makes the offer for him to join them, and he refuses. Also, he has to realize the island, like Friday says, is the only place he can go, plus, if he really wanted to, he can just go follow them, all he would have to do (he would have to be accepted by the islanders, that’s why he can’t just run and catch up with them) was show a little remorse, and he would have been welcomed. In my opinion, the majority of the islanders are really quite gullible. (Which may have something to do with the coconut cordial)

[Dante]

Great stuff, sherryann! I'll be starting my reread tomorrow, but you've raised some points I'm certainly interested in responding to.

[Dante]

Sept 14, 2009 14:52:56 GMT -5 Christmas Chief said:

Why does Klaus assume or think Kit is the bravest agent? He’s met others such as Jerome, Dewey...

I think that sentence is just slightly focalised through Lemony - that is, it's Lemony talking about Klaus's facts from his own perspective, not from Klaus's perspective, so it's Lemony who thinks that Kit is one of V.F.D.'s bravest agents, and unlike Klaus, Lemony would be in a position to know. Of course, one might also say he's in a position to be biased about it.

“...it’s worse than that salad your parents used to make!” Now this is interesting. How does Olaf know of the salad the Baudelaire parents used to make? Later, it’s learned Olaf has more connections with V.F.D than originally thought, but I like this quote because it promotes my salads-are-connected-with-V.F.D.-theory.

So V.F.D., too, is like a chef's salad?

Then the name of the boat comes to attention. The boat’s name it the Carmelita. It struck me as odd that Carmelita would want her name on a boat so plain and old. This makes me wonder whether it was done a prank, Carmelita just wanted her name on as many things as possible, or her parents too had a tradition of naming children after someone who had died, and it’s not Carmelita at all.

I express a couple of thoughts about this - I think it shows that both Olaf and Carmelita are quite similar, in that their means of staking a claim on something is to name it after themselves. It demonstrates their egotism - there's nothing more important to them than themselves. Besides, since Carmelita was being a (ballplaying cowboy superhero soldier) pirate at the time, she'd be content with a classic pirate ship.

The Baudelaires shipwreck on the coastal shelf, and I thought I might as well post the items there, just in case there’s a significance to any of them I’m missing and someone wants to refer to them: Pieces of jagged wood, long rope in complicated knots, heaps of seaweed, thousands of fish, seabirds; pieces of other boats-anchors, portholes, railings, masts, lanterns, smashed barrels, soaked documents, clothing, old typewriter, ornate bird cage, brass cannon, and a torn net caught in propeller blades. I don’t think there’s anything important to them; just to get across the idea there are all sorts of items that wash up on the island

Most are exactly the sort of thing you'd expect in a shipwreck - the torn net caught in propellor blades I feel is particularly strong in this point. The old typewriter and the ornate birdcage are a little more suggestive, however. Typewriters are usually associated with Lemony, and of course the birdcage turns out to be extremely useful. I wonder if perhaps it's a remnant of the Quagmire triplets' attempts to stave off eagle attack? Although they wouldn't be wrecked, I think, for some days yet.

Then, when deciding which way to go, Klaus makes the quote: “...we don’t know where we are or where we are going. We might as well head in any direction at all.” Since a few pages before a compass was referred to as both navigational and moral, I think this quote is referring to both as well, even though Klaus may not know it.

Very good. I think that's exactly the connection Handler would want us to make.

As they begin walking west, the Baudelaires and Count Olaf are referred to as “the three orphans and the one villain” but earlier, the Baudelaires are implied to be villains and we already know Olaf’s an orphan, so I’m not quite sure what Snicket’s getting at there.

I guess at this point, while the narrative is still trying to make out in places that the Baudelaires and Olaf have their similarities, it's also doing what it can to emphasise their differences. Because it might as well have said "the four orphans" or even "the four people" or "the three youngsters and one adult"; that it chose "three orphans and one villain" is a significant statement about their role in the overall narrative, I guess - that's their identity.

Then who we learn to be Friday starts running towards them and Olaf says “If that’s Kit Snicket or some bratty orphan, I’ll harpoon her right where she stands.” So Olaf doesn’t know Kit’s an orphan? (Since he refers to her and the anonymous orphan as two separate people)

Is Kit an orphan? I don't think we know of her losing her parents under unforeseen circumstances, and I'm not sure she's ever referred to as an orphan... but I may be forgetting something. Olaf's being a bit disingenuous here, anyway - given what we learn later, I wouldn't be entirely sure that he'd harpoon Kit on sight.

Friday approaches the Baudelaires and she’s wearing sunglasses “Very much like the ones the Baudelaires had worn as concierges” Either they are (which is the most probable solution), or they’re a similar pair from a V.F.D. disguise kit (it’s best to put all options out there).

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

And comes the conversation with Beatrice. I think this conversation is just another input from Snicket to show how vividly he remembers Beatrice, but I do want to point out Beatrice calls him “Mr. Snicket” not Lemony. So maybe they weren’t good friends at the time, or they were being careful in case they were being spied on. Unless the whole thing was a coincidence.

The fact that Beatrice calls him "Mr. Snicket" is very mystifying, since it seems that there shouldn't have been a point in their lives when they... well. Before their break-up, I can't picture there being a time when Beatrice would have called Lemony "Mr. Snicket," unless perhaps she thought they were being eavesdropped upon; after their break-up, I'm not sure when Lemony would have had the chance to hang about in her room. I should also note that we don't know when this scene takes place; it reads like they're adults who don't know each other very well, but the facts would seem to contradict this. Maybe Handler's just messing with us?

What about me?” Olaf asks. I wonder if he’s asking himself or the others, because Friday makes the offer for him to join them, and he refuses. Also, he has to realize the island, like Friday says, is the only place he can go, plus, if he really wanted to, he can just go follow them, all he would have to do (he would have to be accepted by the islanders, that’s why he can’t just run and catch up with them) was show a little remorse, and he would have been welcomed. In my opinion, the majority of the islanders are really quite gullible. (Which may have something to do with the coconut cordial)

I'll probably look at this myself when I get to that part, but Olaf... would probably be uncomfortable about conforming to someone else's rules so readily. I guess that's another difference between himself and the Baudelaires; actually, I think there's something very important about Olaf's relationship with Ishmael, but again, I'll come to that. I also think that Olaf hesitates to put himself on an equal footing with the Baudelaires here.

---

If you want to know about how The End was promoted across the year 2006, look no further than that year’s AuthorTracker archive:
asoue.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=documents&action=display&thread=25187
It took a long time for us to accept that “The End” wasn’t just a placeholder title. In retrospect, the March AuthorTracker clinched it, but most of us didn’t accept the truth until the cover came out. Even then, there were theories about edited covers, even stickers on the books that were covering up the real title. We were a bit naïve, but we just weren’t ready for the title pattern to be broken. On which note, Handler claims that Stephin Merritt came up with the title “The End,” and that he, Handler, hated the idea – but eventually grew to like it. (Merritt himself doesn’t remember this at all.)

Regarding the Dear Reader letter, there was some discussion about whether the “enormous bird cage” was the one depicted on the cover (before the book came out). In the end it seems that they are the same – personally, I was expecting something a little bigger for “enormous,” but I don’t dispute the validity of the description.

“…a truly haunting secret about the Baudelaire parents” is a flat-out lie, though! That would’ve belonged better in TPP. Perhaps, just as “hypochondria” appeared on some early Dear Reader letters promoting TGG, the “truly haunting secret” is from a draft and it later got removed? Because, while we learn secrets about the Baudelaire parents in this book, none of them are even remotely haunting.

Note that this is the first book since TBB in which the Ex Libris features an undisguised Olaf and undisguised Baudelaires. Actually, this is quite misleading and clearly stylistic, used to create the idea that the series has come full circle, in much the same way some placeholder covers for The End used the same spine colour as TBB (the previous placeholder cover was monochrome, leading some of us to think the final product would use TBB’s colours). Because Olaf does wear a disguise in this book, and the Baudelaires don’t wear their normal clothes either. One might make similar complaints about the Ex Libris pages for THH or TGG.

And there’s not much to say about the dedication in this one. It’s very general, but I suppose that’s fitting, since this is the conclusive entry.

Frontispiece: Thank you Mr. Helquist! When so many of his illustrations hold off on the sweet character art we know he’s capable of, something like this is a gift. The frontispiece for The End may just be the best illustration in the series. Olaf and Violet are particularly striking – Olaf looks villainous but ever so slightly weary, and Violet looks rather more grown-up than she has for a while. Also note that birds fill the sky in the background, which is the closest we get to the apparent foreshadowing device in TPP’s endpiece illustration. Also, we can plainly see a second nameplate under the Count Olaf one… shame that it’s also clearly of a different style to the one used on the TBL posters. And at that, I’m not sure the series is consistent on how good Olaf’s handwriting is, either. Or that paper nameplates would be all that good whether on the ocean or in a swimming pool.

~Chapter One~

Of note is the fact that the first few pages of the first chapter were released early on marketing websites and the like, but some people dismissed them as fake. The “170 chapters” reference played into this – some people thought it was a mistake, and thus a sign that the supposed first few pages were fake.

By the way, we had time to speculate on what the 170th chapter would be. There was some thought that perhaps the déjà vu Chapter Five of TCC or the Author’s Notes in the BBRE might be it, but I don’t know if anyone really believed it would be something besides an epilogue.

“The end of this unhappy chronicle is like its bad beginning” – title justification.

Incidentally, the sail on Olaf’s boat is meant to show the V.F.D. insignia – something justified by the boat’s expanded backstory in this book, and less so when it was introduced in TPP… but now it seems like the insignia’s been forgotten, ironically. Just when it would’ve been an actual clue.

“…including the fact that it was the Baudelaires, not Olaf, who had burned down the Hotel Denouement.” Lies. That makes it sound like Olaf wasn’t even involved! The Baudelaires prepared the scene, but Olaf lit the match and started the fire. The Baudelaires are slightly responsible, but to even describe them as having burnt down the hotel, whether or not you mention Olaf – and this denies his role entirely – is ridiculous.

“At this moment, Klaus was examining his notes on V.F.D. and the schism, which was an enormous fight involving all of its members and had something to do with a sugar bowl.” Again, lies. Nowhere else is there the slightest implication that the sugar bowl is involved in the schism; also, this passage is focalised from Klaus’s perspective, hence the vagueness – “something to do with,” which isn’t how the omniscient narrator would put it – and Klaus has certainly never encountered this knowledge, because, as I mentioned, this knowledge doesn’t exist. I can accept that Handler’s trying to simplify the situation for the sake of the recap – since the first chapter of the later books is generally used largely for a recap of the situation – but here it introduces a piece of knowledge which has never been referred to before and never will be again.

“The children had met Kit only once before she headed out to sea herself, planning to meet up with the Quagmire triplets, three friends the Baudelaires had not seen in quite some time who were travelling in a self-sustaining hot air mobile home.” See, this is more reasonable. In TPP, Quigley had only set out to join his siblings, and we didn’t know if he’d gotten there; summarising the situation here by saying that he has indeed reached them is a reasonable assumption and a reasonable introduction of that fact. It’s not problematic.

The large clay jar with the rubber seal, quite dusty and very old, which contains only beans – or at least, on the top… I’ll come back to this in quite some time.

Every recipe we hear of from the Baudelaire parents seems to be a salad? Or maybe Handler just keeps on having great salads while writing aSoUE books.

Count Olaf’s rambling about the car he’d like to buy did not go down especially well with most people, I think – if it was in the pre-released segment of the first chapter, I suspect that it was probably cited as one reason the segment was fake. It’s not even especially funny.

“It’s worse than that salad your parents used to make!” Establishes that Olaf has dined on the Baudelaire salad, with the implication that it was definitely a sample made by them. Does this suggest he’s even met them for dinner before? Although the Baudelaire children have certainly never encountered him before. The implication here is also that he’s been served this salad on several occasions. Maybe the Baudelaire parents used to make it at one of V.F.D.’s headquarters or while undercover at restaurants? Such as the one the Baudelaire parents first met at, perhaps?

Both Carmelita and Count Olaf seem to have a habit of naming their vehicles after themselves. I guess they are the most important things in their own lives. This particular example seems to cement to me their similarities, though, whereas TGG and TPP emphasised their differences.

Much as Jerome Squalor and Justice Strauss were mentioned in the first chapter of TPP so we’d remember who they were when they returned – it’s part of the recap – so too the first chapter of The End reminds us about the Great Unknown, or rather, as it was typically known up until the end of The End, the Question Mark. Interesting, is it not, that Widdershins is referred to only as “the captain” (‘til Klaus’s following quotation, anyway) and we get no other reminder about the characters of TGG, like Fiona and Fernald? I guess Handler thought he could probably skim over them, and that fans would be most interested in the Baudelaires worrying about the Quagmires. Or some similar method of prioritisation.

“But maybe we shouldn’t join the other volunteers. After all, we’ve caused them a great deal of trouble.” “That’s true… They might not be happy to see us, particularly if we had Count Olaf along.” This would be a fascinating situation and it is a huge shame that it’s never capitalised upon.

Sunny’s suggestion that the Baudelaires murder Olaf is one of several events which I, while reading The End, took as possibly foreshadowing “evil Sunny.” Of course, this never occurred.

“Violet, Klaus, and Sunny, like all children, had always wanted to believe the best about their parents, but as time went on they were less and less sure.” I feel this is an important sentence.

“Others believe that a moral compass develops over time, as a person learns about the decisions of others by observing the world and reading books.” Again, another very important statement, both to this final book and to the series itself, particularly the latter half.

I think it’s been pointed out before that, while this passage states that the Baudelaires’ moral compasses would never have told them to bump off Olaf when they first met him, in TBB there is a part where they consider it; if I recall correctly, Violet wishes she’d put poison in the puttanesca, or something like that? I’m sure I’m not mixing it up with their fear of broken glass in the oatmeal.

Oh yes, the point I was going to make earlier, but forgot, about the obvious presence of another nameplate, is that it makes it even more obvious what was going on in TBL’s poster. Hmm, that’s not as strong a point as I thought it was. Perhaps I’ve forgotten something. Given that the BEATRICE nameplate hasn’t been revealed even once the Baudelaires are shipwrecked, perhaps the fact was that it gives away the ultimate end of The End.

The glee Count Olaf takes in the approaching storm is interesting – he doesn’t care what happens or where it takes him. He feels free to simply ride the flow of events. That’s something the Baudelaires have never felt content with. I feel as though I’m missing something important here about the difference in their characters… perhaps it’s that Olaf is a person who is thoroughly ensconced in the way of the world and doesn’t wish to change it.

[Hermes]

I feel as if we are coming back to solid ground with this book - in TBL we were floating in a sea of mysteries; here, even though the book is largely about mystery, we at least know who the characters are, where they are, when it's taking place, etc.

Chapter 1

Regarding Klaus saying that the schism has something to do with the sugar bowl; I think that can be defended, because he's using 'schism' to mean 'an enormous fight', and it's true that the fight, which is now going on, is about a sugar bowl. I don't think this has to be taken to mean that the start of the schism had to do with the sugar bowl. On the other hand, the claim that the Baudelaires and not Olaf caused the fire is certainly wrong, as Dante says, and perhaps an example of the Baudelaires' tendency to blame themselves for everything.

I think it is perhaps significant that the pot of beans is mentioned along with a salad made out of beans by the Baudelaire parents, given that we later find they were once on the boat. When Olaf ever got to taste this salad is a bit of a puzzle - one might think he had gone to the bad side before the Baudelaire parents got together. (But I suppose they may have been cooking partners, as well as co-stars, before they were a couple.)

Ther have been signs over the last few books that O is going mad (frustrated by the failure of his plans?); here he appears at his maddest. The way he assumes that, because he has the Baudelaires in a boat with him, he has the fortune, confirms my feeling that he has not had a clear plan for getting the fortune for some time; he just associates 'grab Baudelaires' and 'get fortune' in his mind.

Sunny's proposal to throw Olaf overboard - I feel more and more strongly that if she were at Hogwarts she would be sorted into Slytherin. And her second 'unless', when Klaus says they need some kind of nourishment - is she proposing to eat Olaf?

Chapter 2.

I find it hard to get a picture of how deep the water is on the coastal shelf. We're here told it comes up to Klaus's knees, but elsewhere people walk about on it quite comfortably; it seems to be possible to live there if you can put up with raw fish; indeed, Sunny even proposes to cook. Of course, we should bear in mind that in Snicketland everyone under the age of 18 seems to be a midget. But pehaps we should say that the depth is variable and some bits of sand stick out.

I really like sherryann's point about 'We don't know where we are... ' Sunny said something similar in TSS, I think (well, what she said was 'Godot', but that's what she meant).

Regarding Kit being an orphan - she does say at the end that she's lost her parents - though she also says she's lost her brothers, and she's partly wrong about that. But here I think 'bratty orphan' means specifically a child, and refers to the Quagmires.

Lemony and Mrs Baudelaire - is this the first time in the main series that it's been made clear they know each other (given that we're not yet meant to know for sure that Mrs B is Beatrice)? (I know that, as well as TBL, there's a reference in BBRE.) The sense I get is that this did happen while L and B were together - note they are in her room before the party starts, waiting for the guests to arrive. 'Mr Snicket' could be either for purposes of concealment, as Dante suggested, or a sort of game.

'Our colony is not a monarchy'. There is irony here; it will turn out that in a way it is.

[Dante]

Sept 15, 2009 9:00:23 GMT -5 Hermes said:

I feel as if we are coming back to solid ground with this book - in TBL we were floating in a sea of mysteries; here, even though the book is largely about mystery, we at least know who the characters are, where they are, when it's taking place, etc.

Yep. If you like, TBL is a sort of second-order narrative; we're hearing, second-hand, vague segments of even vaguer events. Here we see everything first-hand, thank goodness.

Regarding Klaus saying that the schism has something to do with the sugar bowl; I think that can be defended, because he's using 'schism' to mean 'an enormous fight', and it's true that the fight, which is now going on, is about a sugar bowl. I don't think this has to be taken to mean that the start of the schism had to do with the sugar bowl.

Ah, to refer to the schism not as a single event but as an ongoing crisis. Yes, alright.

I think it is perhaps significant that the pot of beans is mentioned along with a salad made out of beans by the Baudelaire parents, given that we later find they were once on the boat. When Olaf ever got to taste this salad is a bit of a puzzle - one might think he had gone to the bad side before the Baudelaire parents got together. (But I suppose they may have been cooking partners, as well as co-stars, before they were a couple.)

Thinking on your precise terminology, I wonder if this sheds any new light on Olaf's claim to have once been cooking partners with Josephine? It'd be for the purposes of fanfiction, of course, but there may be potential there.

Sunny's proposal to throw Olaf overboard - I feel more and more strongly that if she were at Hogwarts she would be sorted into Slytherin. And her second 'unless', when Klaus says they need some kind of nourishment - is she proposing to eat Olaf?

Well, Klaus didn't refer just to needing some kind of nourishment - he also mentioned navigation and destination. So, they need some way of navigating and a destination to head for "unless"... what? Unless they die? Or perhaps unless they are found by someone else.

We're here told it comes up to Klaus's knees, but elsewhere people walk about on it quite comfortably; it seems to be possible to live there if you can put up with raw fish; indeed, Sunny even proposes to cook. Of course, we should bear in mind that in Snicketland everyone under the age of 18 seems to be a midget. But pehaps we should say that the depth is variable and some bits of sand stick out.

I was just thinking about the illustration of an apple core lying only half-submerged - but then I went and checked the passage itself, and in that it seems to be in a deep puddle. (Looking again at the illustration, the angle at which the "camera" is pointing at the apple is itself unclear... it might be sinking as we watch.)

Regarding Kit being an orphan - she does say at the end that she's lost her parents - though she also says she's lost her brothers, and she's partly wrong about that.

I think this is getting into the definition of the word "orphan" again... TPP rather required us to define it as "a person whose parents have died unnaturally" (or something to that effect). Kit's lost her parents, but so might anyone at her age, or not. Hmm. Perhaps the reference in TCC to a "Snicket fortune" can be logically traced back to suggest that the Snicket parents were also attacked, just like the Baudelaire and, presumably, Quagmire paernts?

Lemony and Mrs Baudelaire - is this the first time in the main series that it's been made clear they know each other (given that we're not yet meant to know for sure that Mrs B is Beatrice)? (I know that, as well as TBL, there's a reference in BBRE.) The sense I get is that this did happen while L and B were together - note they are in her room before the party starts, waiting for the guests to arrive. 'Mr Snicket' could be either for purposes of concealment, as Dante suggested, or a sort of game.

It's not quite true that the party has not yet started; the party is "beginning," which signifies that guests are arriving and certainly some are present, and indeed it does not say that the guests have yet to arrive. That's a bit long-winded for some nitpicking which doesn't really make any difference, and I agree on the significance of where the conversation takes place; the rather formal use of "Mr.," though, makes it sound to me as though they're definitely adults at this point... but oh well, it has to happen at some point in which it makes sense, and the "Mr." is easier to explain than any other factor.

[cwm]

I'll skip chapter 1 since it's already been analysed and my History teacher hit me with a 1000-word essay on the Wars of the Roses. I'll do chapter 2 tomorrow.

[Dante]

Wow, British education really is just the Tudors over and over, isn't it? By the way, I'm probably only doing a chapter at a time, for various reasons.

[Hermes]

Sept 15, 2009 10:19:06 GMT -5 Dante said:

Thinking on your precise terminology, I wonder if this sheds any new light on Olaf's claim to have once been cooking partners with Josephine? It'd be for the purposes of fanfiction, of course, but there may be potential there.

Interesting: I hadn't thought of that. At the time, of course, it seemed that Olaf was lying; but the discovery of VFD makes that uncertain, I suppose.

Well, Klaus didn't refer just to needing some kind of nourishment - he also mentioned navigation and destination. So, they need some way of navigating and a destination to head for "unless"... what? Unless they die? Or perhaps unless they are found by someone else.

Yes, that's a more straightforward reading. It's just that Sunny's first 'unless' introduced a sinister proposal, so I thought her second might as well.

I think this is getting into the definition of the word "orphan" again... TPP rather required us to define it as "a person whose parents have died unnaturally" (or something to that effect).

Not sure - that fits the two adult orphans who feature in TPP, Dewey and Olaf; but in TBL R is called an orphan, and there's no suggestion her mother died unnaturally.

It's not quite true that the party has not yet started; the party is "beginning," which signifies that guests are arriving and certainly some are present, and indeed it does not say that the guests have yet to arrive.

Ah, OK. Still, it sounds as if they were there before the party started; L himself doesn't seem to be treated as one of the guests.

Chapter 3.

What did people on the island drink before Ishamel took over? It seems to be true that at that time there was no fresh water; the filtration system was Beatrice's idea.

'Ishmael has been on this island longer than any of us.' This is a bit surprising, given that he's only been there about fifteen years; everyone who helped him take over must either have left or died.

First noticeable link with TBL - the island has a brae.

Now, when we first met Friday, I thought, and I don't think I was the only one, that she might be the missing sibling in the 'Widdershins' family (since as we all know, VFD familes always contain three siblings). This story about the manatee suggests a way that could work; she is the daughter of Captain Widdershins and his wife, the half-sister of Fernald and Fiona; her parents were separated in an incident involving a manatee, and each concluded the other was dead. However, this theory is called into doubt in the next chapter, where her mother turns out to be called Mrs Caliban, and completely exploded later in the book, where we find out what really happened between her parents. It is a parallel story, like many in The End, not the same story. This reveals a lot about Handler's methods here.

Chapter 4.

The picture which introduces this chapter is not a completely accurate picture of the scene. Most of the items the people are carrying are mentioned in the chapter, but not, I think, the fish, which appears when they actually reach the arboretum; and the 'one way' sign presumably has a symbolic meaning. Also the boy with the pack of cards should be Omeros, but he doesn't look Klaus's age.

'Everyone is taken in here.' This has a sinister double meaning.

Are the people listed here - twenty-five, by my count - the entire population of the island, or just a representative sample?

The shipwreck Lemony describes seems not to be what brought him to the island, since it happened in a creek, not on the sea. It's good to know his life is not one of unrelieved misfortune.

The term 'runcible spoon' was invented by Edward Lear, for whom it was just a nonsense word - he also refers to runcible hat - but its use to mean a combination of fork and spoon does seem to have becomne established

[Dante]

Sept 15, 2009 14:38:56 GMT -5 Hermes said:

Not sure - that fits the two adult orphans who feature in TPP, Dewey and Olaf; but in TBL R is called an orphan, and there's no suggestion her mother died unnaturally.

Well, R.'s still young, right? In her late teens, probably, since our heroes have just graduated, if I recall correctly. So, if we take the conventional definition of an orphan - roughly, "a young person whose parents have died" - R. would fit.

Ah, OK. Still, it sounds as if they were there before the party started; L himself doesn't seem to be treated as one of the guests.

Also true, yes. Beatrice and Lemony seem to have some kind of "mission" here - at least, that's the sense I got. Or rather, Lemony, at least, feels like an outsider, and Beatrice sympathises with that.

What did people on the island drink before Ishamel took over? It seems to be true that at that time there was no fresh water; the filtration system was Beatrice's idea.

Maybe they distilled it? Or there's accessible fresh water on the other side of the brae.

'Ishmael has been on this island longer than any of us.' This is a bit surprising, given that he's only been there about fifteen years; everyone who helped him take over must either have left or died.

This feels like one of the time distortions of the series - in much the same way that the events of TVV through TPP literally took a couple of weeks but are sometimes presented as though they've taken months, Ishmael's time on the island is presented as being a lot longer than anyone else's, perhaps to convey his great age and apparent wisdom. It's still literally true, but the circumstances are surprising. However, it's necessary also for everyone who preceded him to have left, or else they'd know too much of the setting's backstory.

Now, when we first met Friday, I thought, and I don't think I was the only one, that she might be the missing sibling in the 'Widdershins' family (since as we all know, VFD familes always contain three siblings). This story about the manatee suggests a way that could work; she is the daughter of Captain Widdershins and his wife, the half-sister of Fernald and Fiona; her parents were separated in an incident involving a manatee, and each concluded the other was dead. However, this theory is called into doubt in the next chapter, where her mother turns out to be called Mrs Caliban, and completely exploded later in the book, where we find out what really happened between her parents. It is a parallel story, like many in The End, not the same story. This reveals a lot about Handler's methods here.

I sometimes think just about everyone thought this when we first met Friday - I know I did. But, like you, I disagree now. Was Handler toying with us, I wonder? But the story of Thursday, Miranda and Friday is interesting enough on its own without needing to be conflated with another family's intriguing woes.

Are the people listed here - twenty-five, by my count - the entire population of the island, or just a representative sample?

I assume so, since Handler makes an effort throughout the book to give a bit of time to each of them. They all get lines, if only a handful. I think that if there - yes. If there were lots of unnamed castaways we never meet, then the castaways we do meet wouldn't need to be so numerous, right? They could be pruned down to a more useable number rather than just being a mass (or mess) of names slung about hither and thither.

[Christmas Chief]

[quoteauthor=ffwfboard=endthread=28649post=729674 time=1253011968]

Is Kit an orphan? I don't think we know of her losing her parents under unforeseen circumstances, and I'm not sure she's ever referred to as an orphan...

Page 308: Kit Snicket "I've lost too many people- my parents, my true love, and my brothers" I know that's been established, but I thought having the direct quote might help.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Sarcasm?

[Dante]

Sept 15, 2009 16:08:03 GMT -5 Christmas Chief said:

Sarcasm?

Not at all. As you say, there aren't any other options. I look at the sunglasses myself in the following run-through of Chapter Two:

---

~Chapter Two~

It’s interesting. When the U.K. publishers received their copy of The End from HarperCollins, not all the illustrations had yet been put in it – specifically, the final three full-page illustrations, and the Chapter Two illustration. Those last three they just left as blank pages, but for Chapter Two they stick in the author bio photograph of Snicket holding a pile of pages in front of his face, rotating it slightly. I guess Egmont figured that they couldn’t have a chapter without an illustration, but didn’t that tell them something was wrong? Why didn’t they talk about it to HC? It’s very strange.

Also, now would be a good time to note – well, actually, last time would have been the best time to note – that every chapter of The End quotes or paraphrases a line from the corresponding chapter in TBB, as part of the whole cyclical business we’ve observed. In Chapter Two it’s particularly noticeable as it’s the very first sentence, although I think in the original TBB it would have been “the days that followed” rather than “the hours.”

So the Baudelaires never get the chance to dig very deep into the pot of beans, as it falls overboard.

While the Baudelaires cling to one another in fear, Olaf clings to his weapons. It’s not “as if a terrible weapon and a deadly fungus were the only things he loved in the world” – in desperate times, the Baudelaires turn to friends and family for joint strength, but in desperate times, Olaf turns to weapons he can use to drive away his enemies. It’s another differing set of perspectives.

“Unless we find our concierge sunglasses… The storm blew them away, but they might have landed on the same shelf.” This suggests that Friday’s sunglasses are indeed the ones the Baudelaires wore as part of their disguise… except that they ditched those sunglasses in Chapter Seven of TPP and apparently haven’t had them to hand since, so in fact they shouldn’t have been blown away in the storm because they weren’t there in the first place. This seems to be a rare case of the illustrations getting something right that the text gets wrong – neither the endpiece of TPP nor the frontispiece of The End depict the Baudelaires with their sunglasses.

When all we had to go on about The End was the cover, we naturally thought that the apparent death of Olaf would be more important than it ultimately was – that much drama might be wrung out from it. Instead, it occupies less than a page. Actually, to say we thought it might be dramatic is an exaggeration. I know I’m not the only one who, upon first seeing the cover, thought that Olaf was sunbathing while the orphans did all the work.

“It must have been terrible… to try and ride out the storm with no kind of shelter whatsoever.” Is Klaus sympathetic here? Or impressed by Olaf’s bravery? But I think it shows something that we see throughout The End – a sort of… adjustment of the Baudelaires’ opinion of Count Olaf.

“The primitive inhabitants have never seen civilized people, so they will probably revere me as a god.” The End relies upon a lot of castaway tropes, of one kind or another; here Olaf seems to be representing the sort of views one might expect from rather outdated nineteenth-century novels.

“broken banister” – didn’t we last see Quigley clinging to a bit of broken banister as he was washed away in TSS?

“No matter where we are, there’s always room for someone like me.” This raises an interesting question. Olaf is, if you like, a sort of Serpent in Eden – a malevolent influence who manages, through deception, to occupy a place in societies which would be far happier throwing him out. So why does he get rejected here? Why does Count Olaf spend the majority of the book on the coastal shelf, only reaching the island proper in the last chapters? Perhaps it’s because he declares himself openly rather than using trickery, or perhaps it’s because the Baudelaires are the serpents here.

Much has already been said in this thread about the scene between Lemony Snicket and the Baudelaires’ mother. I can only see one problem with this scenario: The fact that she addresses Lemony as “Mr. Snicket,” when she should have been intimate with him from too young an age to have ever addressed him so formally. As a result, I won’t concern myself with matters such as when the party takes place; instead I’ll ask why Beatrice might be so formal. And in that case I suppose I would be forced to suggest that Beatrice is playing a role here. So may be Lemony, at that; it seems that he’s having to mingle with the assembled when naturally he would perhaps rather avoid them.

“We grew tired of building houses that would only get blown away during the stormy season…” Given what Hermes has pointed out – that Ishmael alone has been here fifteen years, and that the island has been inhabited for far longer than that – it seems that Friday must be reciting island history here, rather than something she personally has seen. Perhaps that’s reinforced by how she goes on to quote one of Ishmael’s catchphrases, “I won’t force you.”

Actually, I think that even if it’s for thematic purposes, Olaf acts a little too stupidly here, just barging in and expecting to be obeyed when in every other situation he’s ingratiated himself more subtly. Perhaps it is the influence of too much sensationalist reading, or perhaps he genuinely is going mad.

[Hermes]

Sept 15, 2009 15:37:09 GMT -5 Dante said:

Maybe they distilled it? Or there's accessible fresh water on the other side of the brae.

In that case, it's not clear what the point of the filtration system would be. (They were living on the other side of the brae at the time.)

I sometimes think just about everyone thought this when we first met Friday - I know I did. But, like you, I disagree now. Was Handler toying with us, I wonder? But the story of Thursday, Miranda and Friday is interesting enough on its own without needing to be conflated with another family's intriguing woes.

I'm sure a connection was intended - not only the name beginning with F (which turns out to be part of a quite differnt pattern, but we couldn't know that at the start) but also the manatee story. And I think there is another parallel which emerges later.

Chapter 5.

Another link with TBL - the term 'braeman' is used.

Note that there is a record of events being kept on the island, and there is a water filtration system. So far as I can see, though, there isn't a fountain.

The story about the fountain helps us to date Sunny's birth - she was just a few weeks old, and it was an unusually hot autumn. Might this help us date the events of the series, given that she doesn't have a birthday during it? Probably not.

Lemony's story is another which shows that he was around and active in VFD during the Baudelaires' youth - though not allowed to meet Beatrice.

Might the playwright ordering the glass of fruit be Al Funcoot?

'Her belly, full and round from her pregnancy' - which had obviously progressed significantly in the last week.

The Baudelaires seem to show some surprise at meeting Olaf - which is odd, as they knew that he was on the castal shelf, where they left him.

Chapter 6.

Friday's recognising O is also treated as more surprising than it really is, given that she has met him before. (Of course, according to the now established continutiy Monty and Josephine, and perahps Sir and Nero, had met him before as well. But not in the last week.)

How did Ishmael manage to convince people that no books ever washed up on the island? Would they not find them while scavenging? Does I manage to search the entire coastal shelf for books before everyone else get there? (Later this will get even more complicated.)

'Professor Fletcher... held secret classes .. for those of us who were born on the island.' So far as I can see this can only be, at most, Friday, Finn and Omeros, since if anyone older was born on the island they would have been there before Ishmael. Thought: perhaps Finn is the missing 'Widdershins' sibling. (No reason there has to be one, of course; the three-sibling pattern was broken in TPP anyway. But it's an idea.)

Friday's secrets - reading, skipping rocks, and the whisk - link her to the three Baudelaires.

The Incredibly Deadly Viper - we are never told, of course, how it came to be with Kit in the first place.

'I've always wanted to meet a herpetologist.' It seems a rather odd desire. She comes from a VFD background, of course, but hasn't been brought up in line with it.

When O says 'She's my girlfriend', is he still trying to impersonate a woman?

[Christmas Chief]

How did Ishmael manage to convince people that no books ever washed up on the island? Would they not find them while scavenging?

He probably convinces them with the influence of cocunut cordial, but I don't see how they wouldn't not find them while scavenging, or that Ishmael would be able to comb the entire island and find every single book washed up.

'I've always wanted to meet a herpetologist.' It seems a rather odd desire. She comes from a VFD background, of course, but hasn't been brought up in line with it.

That's what I thought. It makes you wonder what else she wants to learn about. Maybe Professer Fletcher had some influence?

When O says 'She's my girlfriend', is he still trying to impersonate a woman?

Yeah, he really needs to get his stories straight.



My notes on chapters four and five are pretty much what Hermes wrote, so I'll just continue with chapter 6.


-Chapter 6-

I love the art for this chapter. It's creative and relevent!

"You're not Kit Snicket!" Mrs. Caliban cried. How does she know who Kit is? And you'd think Friday would question that. And where did Olaf get the orange-yellow dress?
Friday: "You might as well put your weapon down. It's useless in a place like this." What?! She obviously doesn't mean this geographically, but I can't see how it would be used as a metaphor, Friday has to have some idea of the treachery on the island. Then Olaf agrees a harpoon gun is "useless in a place like this" Knowing Olaf, I'm guessing he interpreted that in the wrong way.
Then Friday reveals the Incredibly Deadly Viper to the Baudelaires, in my opinion, that's really brave of her, picking up an unknown snake. Unless she's just never learned the dangers about them. Possible.
"Ishmael." Olaf reconizes him. Again I ask: How?! But in a way, this clears up some of my earlier questions pertaining to the time of Ishmael's arrival.
I wonder though, why after Olaf accuses Sunny of hiding a whisk in her robe pocket, why Violet and Klaus just fess up. They could have gotton away with it and passed off Sunny's secret as a mistake. And according to Ishmael's policies, he has no reason to be angry, after all, as he keeps reminding everyone, he never forces anyone to do anything.
"It looks incredibly deadly." says Erewhon. I sincerly doubt he knows anything about Uncle Monty's misnomer. I'm pretty sure it was put in there for humor purposes.
"We don't want a snake slithering around in the arboretum." Ishmael says quickly. Why is he so nervous here? Not for the snake, obviously, but how could a snake hurt him or the arboretum items? Unless he's aware of Uncle Monty's snake somehow but only got the 'incredibly deadly' part? But the thing is, he doesn't say something along the lines of "Friday, drop that snake this instant!" Of course, then the islanders would begin to question how much Ishmael really knows, and it would turn into an argument.
When the apple (we later learn) falls out of Ishmael's sleeve, I'm curious as to why he would be so worried about it. He doesn't pick it up, not that he has much of a choice, so he must not think the Baudelaire's capable of putting it together. And I think he draws more attention to himself by clapping his hands so hastily. Interesting though, how neither the Baudelaires nor the islanders notice that he drops it. They just write it off as a non-suspicious plop!. Olaf is the one who actually identifies the item and puts the clues together.

[Hermes]

Sept 16, 2009 15:23:09 GMT -5 Christmas Chief said:

I love the art for this chapter. It's creative and relevent!

I agree!

"You're not Kit Snicket!" Mrs. Caliban cried. How does she know who Kit is?

Well, she might just mean that Olaf can't be Kit because he's not a woman. But it turns out later that Kit is a friend of her estranged husband, so they probably have met before.

And where did Olaf get the orange-yellow dress?

That's a good question. Immediately, I suppose he found it on the coastal shelf, where it had washed up, as everything eventually does. But how it got to the coastal shelf - how it got to be in the water in the first place - is a bit of a mystery. (But I guess we sholuldn't probe too deeply; the same question might arise for a lot of other things that are there, like the fanbelt, triangular picture frames, etc.)

"Ishmael." Olaf reconizes him. Again: How?!

That will emerge later - Ishmael is an old member of VFD. (Or were you not actually asking, just pointing out something that's puzzling when we first read it?)

Chapter 7.

But, following on very neatly from Sherryann's point, this chapter raises a new question - how does O know about what Ishmael is doing now? We'll later discover that he learnt that Ishmael was still hiding out on the island from his associate Monday - one of the two women who sailed away with the snake, perhaps?

'a secret so gigantic and important that it could not fit into their hearts and minds, something that had been hidden their entire lives and might destroy their entire lives if it were revealed.' Are we meant to suppose
- that we are told this secret later in the book? (But though we are told several secrets, nothing seems to fit this description.)
- that the secret remains hidden?
- that there is no such gigantic secret; there is only the large and mysterious world, in which we may find answers, but they wil always bring further questions? I'm guessing the last - after all, Olaf doesn't say anything as precise as that there is a gigantic secret, just that there are many things the Baudelaires don't know. I think the attitude of the Baudelaires here is rather like the attitude of many fans before The End was published; it wasn't so much that they wanted the answer to specific questions, though they did, but that they wanted The Answer which would explain everything. But there is no such thing (and in my view, which I know not everyone shares, was never meant to be).

Chapter 8.

'Do you think that the history of VFD is the only story in the world?' This is a bit ironic, because earlier in the series, especially in TUA and the following books, it looked very much as if it was; everything and everyone turned out to have a VFD connection, even if that was unsuspected when we met them.

'The telegram device fell on my legs when the submarine was attacked'. Judging by what K says later, it wasn't actually attacked - it's just that a self-sustaining hot air mobile home fell on it.

It seems that, though the Baudelaires only see the faces of Erewhon and Finn, and only they speak, there are more people present.

'walking carefully among the puddles and debris' - this seems to confirm the view that the coastal shelf is not completely covered.

'outside the night made mysterious noises his parents insisted were nothing more than the wind, even on windless evenings'. This recalls the UA - If there's nothing out there, what was that noise?

'The nighttime digger may actually be planting a tree to surprise his niece...' - looking forward to TBL, and Lemony's meeting with his niece?

And the Baudelaires have another sleepless night, though they have had a few nights to catch up since the last one.

(From now on the book becomes much more complex, so I probably won't be going so fast.)