Ages

[Hermes]

*Dante hat*

Most of this looks good to me, but I have some questions.

Where does L faking his death at 23 come from? (Indeed, where does his faking his death at all before Violet's birth come from? B believed he was dead at one point, certainly, but I don't know of any evidence that this was his own intention.)

As for L being a year older than Beatrice, I think I do know where that comes from, but I don't think it's justified. At the beginning of TBL Lemony is eleven; and in the publicity for TBL, we were told 'Beatrice was only ten'. So a lot of people concluded that L was one year older than her. But in fact, it seems fairly clear that the publicity was referring to young B, who is explicitly said to be ten when she meets Lemony at the end. (For a long time I thought of L as the youngest of his generation, which might have been why they wrote a song about him: but ATWQ messed that up by showing that Hector was a year younger than him, though at the same level in VFD.)

As for Josephine, in ASOUE she has white hair and is addressed as 'old woman'; but in ATWQ she seems to be retconned to make her quite close to Lemony's age.

PS. R., I think you were going to tell us about Carmelita's age.

[R.]

I think she is thirteen because she is in the same class as Violet and Duncan, who are fourteen and thirteen, which makes me imagine they are in UK Year Nine, which I think is your Eighth grade. Duncan and Isadora being placed in different classes is likely the result of the school’s poor management.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

I think there is a hint about the possible apparent age of Carmelita in a conversation between Geraldine and Esmé in TPP:

"Carmelita has been a tomboy lately," she said, using an insulting term inflicted on girls whose behavior some people find unusual.

"I'm sure your daughter will grow out of it," Geraldine replied, who as usual was speaking into a microphone.

I do not want to make a speech about gender here, just an observation from the point of view of the characters, which is not always the most polite:

From Geraldine Juliene's point of view, there is a stage in a girl's life when tomboy behavior is more frequent, and as she ages, that behavior simply disappears. I can say that most people who believe this advocate that this behavior is more common before the girl's first menstruation, and menstruation is seen as a strong appeal to femininity.

So, when looking at Carmelita, Geraldine Juliene most likely saw a girl who was far from the time of her first menstruation. The average age of first menstruation varies between 12.4 and 13.3 years in the United States. So, I believe that the apparent age of Carmelita is around 10 to 11 years old. However, considering that Carmelita's actual age and apparent age may vary slightly, and taking into account what Roxy said about the classrooms, I believe it is safe to say that Carmelita is about 12 years old despite physically appearing who is 10 years old. (The variation in apparent age and actual age between 10 and 12 years old is relatively common, especially in cases of late puberty).

[Hermes]

Jean: It is not clear to me that Geraldine is thinking as coherently as you suggest; she is probably just being nice (by her own lights) to Esme.

Roxy: I think that in a school with just two teachers, it is likely that the students are not sorted by age. On the other hand there being just two teachers might well imply that the school is not of unlimited size, and suggest that it is only a secondary school (which I think is what 'preparatory' normally means in America anyway), in which case C must be quite close in age to the Baudelaires.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Well, I'm not suggesting that Geraldine did think rationally ... In fact, I'm suggesting just the opposite. Geraldine's comment seems to have been made naturally and without the need to think about anything. In addition, Esmé's comment was also made without having to think about much. Just try to imagine ... If you overheard this conversation about some unknown girl: "She is going through a tomboy phase". What age group of the girl comes to your mind? And if the answer was: "Relax, soon it grows and it ends" ... What age group do you imagine the girl is? You are unlikely to imagine a teenage girl. And if you hear that this girl is playing at being a pirate, you are even less likely to imagine a teenager. This does not mean that Carmelita is not a teenager. But it does mean that she doesn't look like a teenager in the eyes of the adults who see her, not even Esmé, who seems to care about her.

The person who is thinking a lot about the subject is me ... When making inferences about casual day-to-day comments, and the subliminal reasons that lead to such comments. If Carmelita looked like a teenager, casual comments are unlikely to be made that way and using those words. I can say that not only does Carmelita look more like a preteen, but her behavior also fits more into that.

Girls, in general, mature more quickly than boys. A girl at 13 behaving like Carmelita would be something really really strange. At 13, girls in general seek independence rather than explicitly seeking attention through requests that come close to tantrums.

Even though she is 12 years old, I would say that her psychological age is even younger, bordering on 9 years old. But of course, I am only taking into account TPP. I have to admit that in TAA, Carmelita has a personality that fits a girl older than in TPP. Did some traumatism childish her between TAA and TSS? (I've seen it happen in real life). Of course, the most likely is that the development of the character has not reached that level ...

(Note: I am from a different culture than most, so I may be completely wrong about the "tomboy". I would be happy to be clarified about it.)

[counto]

Connecting both ATWQ and ASOUE is a consent headache. With characters being older or younger in both, especially the fact that Josephine and Monty appear too. The whole idea concept of Lemony being a year older than Beatrice comes from the real life relationship with Dante Alighieri and Beatrice Portinari. They both meet and fell in love at age nine with Beatrice being a few months younger than Dante. However she married another man and died.

We know that Daniel Handler used Dante's Inferno as influence/reference to Beatrice in ASOUE. Lemony (or Dante the Poet) being her former love interest in after death mourning over his lost love.

Also it was mentioned in one of TBL that Lemony was 23 when he left Beatrice. Presumably due to Olaf framing him for the arson of the Royal Gardens after giving his play One Last Warning To Those Who Stand In My Way a bad review as revenge.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

I want to point out that one of the possible interpretations of TBL (which was once my favorite) is that Beatrice's last letter to Lemony was actually a letter from Beatrice Senior (who survived for many years) and in which she claims to be only 10 years old to indicate that it was at this time in their lives that the two met for the first time. In this case, this meeting took place when Lemony was 11 years old. Another possible interpretation, that of mirrors, indicates that what happened to Beatrice Jr is a bizarre reflection of what happened to Beatrice Senior. In this case, Beatrice Jr's meeting at the age of 10 at the same cafe was a reflection of what Beatrice Sr did at the same age.

[counto]

I like the idea of that scenario being canon, especially in the Netflix adaption. Where in the end of the final episode future narrator Lemony Snicket (Patrick Warburton) meets his ten year old niece Beatrice II at a soda diner (presumably the same one he and Beatrice I first officially met as a child). This I feel is important and shows that perhaps their isn't as much unfortunate for Lemony or anybody in the story after all.

[Glittery666]

Violet and Klaus' ages we know for sure
Sunny:2 in TE
Quagmires:13-14(they're said to be a little older than Klaus and a little younger than Violet)
Fiona:17
Snickets:30s(Jacques and Kit are twins 2 years older than Lemony)
Uncle Monty:60s
Aunt Josephine:60s, maybe early 70s
Carmelita:9-10
Esme:Late 20s-early 30s
Jerome:Late 40s
Charles:Late 20s-early 30s
Hector:Late 20s-early 30s
Hal:90s
Justice Strauss:60s
Denouments:30s(a few months older than Jacques and Kit)
Edgar and Albert Poe:10-11

[counto]

Lemony Snicket: 37/38
Jacques & Kit Snicket: 40
Denouement Triplets: 40's (a few months older than J and K)
Beatrice: 36 (reference to Tzadikim Nistarim)
Bertrand: Mid/Late 30's (37 or 39) 
Violet: 14/15
Klaus: 12/13
Sunny: 1/2
Quagmire Triplets: 13/14
Carmelita: 11/12
Fiona: 16
Fernald: 28/29 (born 13 years before Fiona) 

Others: 
Count Olaf: Early/Mid 40's (safe bet being 43 or 45) 
Esme: 32 
Jerome: Same age range as Bertrand 
Monty: Early/Mid 50's (studied herpetology for 40 years) 
Josephine & Justice Strauss: Early 60's 
Charles: Mid 30's 
Sir: 50's 
Phil: Mid 40's 
Georgina: 34 (Born in 1948, nod to George Orwell's 1984) 
Nero: Late 40's 
Mrs Bass & Mr Remora: Mid 60's (teached for 47 years) 
Hector: 37 
Babs: ? 
Hal: 80's 
Olivia/Lulu: Late 20's/Early 30's (younger than Esme) 
"Freaks": Late 30's/Early 40's 
Captain Widdershins: 60's (same age range as Josephine) 
Friday Caliban: 7 
Miranda Caliban: Late 20's/Early 30's (twin sister of Olivia) 
Ishmael: 90's 
Mr Poe: Mid 40's 
Edgar Poe: 10 
Albert Poe: 8 

[Hermes]

Oh, I like that idea, though I'm fairly sure DH originally meant her to be older. Can we apply something similar to Captain Widdershins, who also seems to be a similar age to the central group in ATWQ?

[Glittery666]

Josephine is described as having white hair and when Olaf tried calling her he told Violet to "Get the old woman on the phone," so we can infer that she's older(note that I haven't read ATWQ).

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Oct 6, 2021 7:22:47 GMT -5 Hermes said:

Oh, I like that idea, though I'm fairly sure DH originally meant her to be older. Can we apply something similar to Captain Widdershins, who also seems to be a similar age to the central group in ATWQ?

I think if we want to reconcile this contradiction, the best way is to claim that Josephine was pretending to be an older person, because of VFD. She took on a permanent disguise similar to what happened to Madame Lulu. The fact that this is a possibility is highlighted by the fact that she was willing to do it again when she tried to convince Olaf to let her live: she was willing to assume a new identity and let the world think she died.

[counto]

Oct 8, 2021 22:37:54 GMT -5 Glittery666 said:

Josephine is described as having white hair and when Olaf tried calling her he told Violet to "Get the old woman on the phone," so we can infer that she's older(note that I haven't read ATWQ).

That's the same conclusion I had with Aunt Josephine's age in the book. Her illustration even shows her as elderly. In the 2004 movie, Josephine played by Meryl Streep was seen and portrayed as an old woman. Unlike the Netflix version which doesn't really count since it's sort of an alternate/non-canon version of ASOUE. I personally believe that both Monty, Cap Widdershins and Josephine are fairly older than both the Baudelaire's parents by a few years. 

Monty for example states he studied herpetology for 40 years (presumably sometime around the VFD Schism started). Man with No Hair and Beard mentions in TSS that the fire-starting side of VFD trained reptiles. However I don't think Monty was ever a fire starter himself. It's more possible that his family were on the fire starting side of VFD, but not him. In TWW, it's mention that Violet has an aunt that use to burn ants under a microscope as a child. This of course is referring to Bertrand's unnamed cousin who married Monty's unnamed sister. 

Mr Poe mentions other candidate guardians that have refused guardianship of the Baudelaire children in TVV. One of them being Monty's sister. This could just be that she didn't want them because of her brother's death or out of Count Olaf. 

Also ATWQ has really thrown things out of whack in an already complicated timeline. Which is squarely why I chose to ignore it period and focus more attention on ASOUE. 

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Sorry counto. Where is it written that the incendiary side trained the snakes?