Concerning Olaf's acting troupe...

[friendofvfd]

This has probably been talked about before, but I'll mention it anyway. What exactly happened to the "wart-faced" man? His first appearance was in TBB, but then you never see him again. And weren't there others? It's kind of hard to remember since it's actually been a while since I've read it. But weren't there three short people in the troupe? And a couple of others? What happened to them? And there was some talk about the "pimple-faced" man. Was he really the bald man with the long nose? Since some people were saying it was really him. Does anyone have any theories? Or has this thread been discussed before?

[Christmas Chief]

The wart-faced man never appears again after TBB, though he is counted as one of the original ten troupe members (there is a thread exploring specifics of that topic here). There is not much basis for stating the pimple-faced man bears a connection to either the bald man or, as sometimes suggested, the wart-faced man. The characteristics of these two characters differ quite clearly in the text, and the Baudelaires do not seem to recognize the pimple-faced man as a member of the troupe even with their profound ability to see through disguise. The three short men - and the short-haired woman, for that matter - aren't mentioned again (well, besides the line in The End in which the former group is referenced for parody).

Edit: For reference, here are the people in the acting troupe, listed as individuals for convenience:

- the bald man with the long nose
- White-faced woman #1
- White-faced woman #2
- the hook-handed man
- the genderless person
- Short man #1
- Short man #2
- Short man #3
- the short-haired woman
- the wart-faced man

[Dante]

After TBB Handler ditches the half of the troupe who weren't present in the original introduction in Chapter... Five, was it? It's also stated in Chapter Thirteen that some of the actors in The Marvelous Marriage hadn't been aware of Olaf's plan; possibly this accounts for the departure of the short-haired woman and the three short men. The wart-faced man is the most "famous" of the missing troupe members, though, because he helps Olaf escape and is specifically stated as having escaped with the rest, but is never mentioned again. So either Handler just plain forgot about the wart-faced man or he stuck with the more interesting ones.

[Hermes]

The sense I get is that the characters introduced in chapter 12 are technicians rather than actors - we see them carrying scenery, bringing down the curtain and adjusting light fittings - so they may not be part of Olaf's troupe, but rather attached permanently to the theatre. The wart-faced man, unlike the others, is certainly in the plot, but he might be an independent villain who is collaborating with Olaf, like Dr Orwell. I like to think that he is the manager of the theatre.

[friendofvfd]

I actually just found my copy of TBB, I was trying to look for my copies of the series to skim through/re-read it all before ATWQ comes out. (can't wait!)
But back on topic, yes, when we first meet the troupe it's in chapter four (U.S. version) and it says that when the Baudelaire's are at the grocery store they tell one of the clerks that they need items for "thirteen people" (again with Handler's love of the number 13) which includes the "ten" people in Olaf's troupe including themselves. And when the troupe appears at Olaf's house for the rehearsal and dinner.

The text says, "Soon they were crowding the room, an assortment of strange-looking characters of all shapes and sizes. There was a bald man with a very long nose, dressed in a long black robe. There were two women who had bright white powder all over their faces, making them look like ghosts. Behind the women was a man with very long and skinny arms, at the end of which were two hooks instead of hands. There was a person who was extremely fat, and who looked like neither a man nor a woman. And behind this person, standing in the doorway, were an assortment of people the children could not see but who promised to be just as frightening."

So even though those people in chapter four are never specifically described, were they the same people, the other five that is, we meet in chapter 12 when they are setting up the stage? And if so, they were "promised to be just as frightening". Of course this is from the Baudelaire's point of view, and it's hard to tell what kind of people they were, but besides the wart-faced man, were the three short men and the short-haired woman really innocent of Olaf's plans?

By the way Hermes, I really like the idea that the wart-faced man was possibly not in Olaf's troupe at all and is just an individual villain. Like Orwell, or the sinister duo.

[Dante]

It seems highly likely that the wart-faced man, three short men, and short-haired woman are meant to be the other five members of the troupe, as they bump the numbers up to the full ten. There is a sort of passive error in TBB on the subject of how many members the troupe has, though. Olaf's note says to make dinner for "all ten of them," i.e. not including himself, or he'd have said "us." But since he was there himself there should really have been fourteen to dinner. Maybe he'd already eaten? It's also worth noting that the U.A.'s list of possible members of Olaf's troupe bumps up the potential number of people the children couldn't see to a troupe of way more than ten members.

[crono288]

In the other thread you linked, Dante, you mentioned the line from Scream And Run Away ("and one long-nosed bald man with warts"), but said it wasn't supported by the books. What do you mean by that? It's been quite a while so I don't remember, but is the end of TBB laid out as such that they definitely can't be the same person? Obviously using two different descriptors implied an intention of two different characters at the time, yes, but assuming it's physically possible within the narrative can we not take the song at face value as a retcon ironing out the inconsistency?

[Dante]

To be clear, crono288, then quite aside from the bald man and the wart-faced man appearing separately in Chapter Twelve of TBB with separate descriptions, which I feel would require sophistry enough to evade, Chapter Thirteen of the book (just after Violet turns on the lights) lists all of Olaf's troupe members like so: "the wart-faced man, the hook-handed man, the bald man with the long nose, the enormous person who looked like neither a man nor a woman, and the two white-faced women" - in other words, the wart-faced man and the bald man are indisputably numbered separately. The song might be a retcon, or it might be simply inaccurate.

[colette]

and the Baudelaires do not seem to recognize the pimple-faced man as a member of the troupe even with their profound ability to see through disguise

It is strange but Baudelaires do seem to have this ability only concerning Olaf. Fernald wasn't recognized in TRR or TEE, the bald man wasn't recognized in TMM, white-faced weren't recognized in TAA. The same situation was with Esme Squalor in TVV and three freaks in TPP.

[Dante]

To be fair, quite often the other troupe members have their faces partially or wholly covered, but that's not always true.

[colette]

Oct 5, 2012 9:41:23 GMT -5 Dante said:

To be fair, quite often the other troupe members have their faces partially or wholly covered, but that's not always true.

Kevin's face wasn't covered in TPP. He was just wearing a wig the same like Olaf in TMM but Olaf was recognized very quickly by Violet and Sunny.
And in TVV Olaf was recognized only by his voice.

[Mally Sebald]

I think what's more likely is that the five forgotten troupe members were accomplices who didn't want to work with Olaf after his first plan failed. It's highly unlikely that they were just there to set up the sets, considering some of his own hench-people are doing that (And WOULDN'T be doing that if there was a theatre crew to do it for them.)

and sorry for the necro reply!

[Uncle Algernon]

Whoever they were, I wonder if the three short men should be interpreted as another set of ASOUE-verse triplets.

[Mally Sebald]

They most likely are. The phrasing "three short men" is very deliberate and seems to imply that they are the exact same height
I also think it's worth noting that the UA lists that there are 7 unseen associates. When the Baudelaires are at the market, they buy food for 13. 7 unseen associates + 5 seen associates + Count Olaf add up to 13, however Count Olaf later states that they will feed the "10 of us". That would mean either the UA is wrong (likely), or that 3 members departed while dinner was being cooked. Could those 3 have been the short men?

[Uncle Algernon]

Nov 15, 2024 11:26:21 GMT -5 Mally Sebald said:

That would mean either the UA is wrong (likely), or that 3 members departed while dinner was being cooked.

If the Three Short Men are indeed identical triplets, an amusing if too-obtuse-to-have-been-likely-intended reading would be that Olaf is absent-mindedly thinking of sets of identical twins/triplets as single individuals, thus counting only one for the White-Faced Women and one for the Short Men. Discounting one White-Faced Woman and two Men would bring the count down by three.