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Post by gliquey on Sept 28, 2014 13:11:51 GMT -5
It's the problem with the real world. If Handler had had 7 years to write the books and perfect a full series of 13 before the first was published, we might have avoided contradictions (even then, people make mistakes). But the original series was only going to be 4 books long, and Handler didn't think it would get that far when writing the first section of TBB, so you can't expect everything to be perfect.
I don't view the first half of the series as "pointless" - even in their own right, they were great. Think of it like an episode of a sitcom: you can get episodes with absolutely 0 plot development, but people still watch them and enjoy them. And they contribute to the feeling of the books.
I wouldn't want the books to be "rewritten", just for a couple of things to be altered. The V.F.D. eye, the TSS letter to Kit / timing issues / Hector and Josephine - these are not big things. I can't think of anything in the series that's been retconned too badly.
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Post by Dante on Sept 28, 2014 13:58:39 GMT -5
It's a great insight into a single individual's artistic development, if nothing else - and it isn't nothing else. It's a real rollercoaster ride. I can't tell you how agonising the cliffhanger endings of THH and TCC were.
Edit: I just now noticed that the topic title is misspelt. I can't live with this; I'll have to fix it.
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Post by Agathological on Sept 28, 2014 14:28:46 GMT -5
Oh. My favourites:
The Grim Grotto
The Penultimate Peril
The End
Least:
The Ersatz Elevator
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Post by ghostie on Sept 28, 2014 14:40:24 GMT -5
Love most:
TSS
TEE
TAA
TPP
Love least:
TMM
I also feel like TWW and TCC are rather underrated.
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Post by gliquey on Sept 28, 2014 16:04:40 GMT -5
I can't tell you how agonising the cliffhanger endings of THH and TCC were. THH is the only book that I remember finishing for the first time and thinking "right, I need to get the next one now". Not even the endings of TCC or TSS made me desperate to get the next book immediately, which is really weird, since THH is possibly the least suspense-filled cliffhanger ending in the latter half of the series. If I take a quick glance at the books, THH is probably the one that stands out as the least appealing. Maybe it's just the awful shade of blue or weird picture on the UK cover, but it just doesn't feel like as good a book as the rest in the series. I can't find a logical reason for that - it's get suspense (Violet's capture), hidden messages (anagrams of patients) and strange plots and disguises and all the rest of it, but I still don't like it as much as the other 12 books. And I always mix up Hector and Hal's names for no reason other than them beginning with the same letter and appearing in consecutive books. |
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Post by Dante on Sept 29, 2014 2:34:01 GMT -5
I do think THH has a different feel to many of the rest of the books, but I quite like that about it. I do think the HarperCollins edition had the more intriguing cover art, though; I'd have been wild with anticipation if I'd seen that. But I still think the Egmont edition art is very good as well. I might have to chalk this one up to "matter of opinion," in the same way TMM is widely unpopular but nobody can really say why.
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Post by M David Steel on Oct 13, 2014 18:55:25 GMT -5
Least TEE
most TPP
just a random stab really
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Post by ghostie on Oct 13, 2014 21:41:21 GMT -5
i actually really enjoyed THH. it was one of the scarier ones, but i thought the whole anagram thing was cool, plus the transition into the Baudelaires' being on their own and searching for the Snicket file and all. yet somehow it just doesn't come to mind as one of the best. maybe just because the hospital setting is extraordinarily bleak, while in the other books the settings were horrifying but they were sorts of twists on more intriguing places, like carnivals.
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Post by Liam R. Findlay on Oct 18, 2014 5:41:16 GMT -5
The US Hostile Hospital cover is indeed beautiful.
My favourites are:
The Wide Window- Just an excellent, compact adventure in a wonderful setting with fabulous characters. It's a very 'old school' adventure in my opinion.
The Ersatz Elevator- For the same reasons. Specifically the campy themes like Esme, all of the 'in' things and the blindly rich, fashionable people, the massive apartment and the great idea of the empty elevator shaft with the kidnapped orphans at the bottom of it. Plus the twist at the auction.
I'm also tempted to put The Austere Academy, for the same reasons again, although it might just be because of Carmelita, the illustrations of Carmelita and the Quagmires <3 The Penultimate Peril is also a potential favourite due to the wonderful illustrations and how it brings old characters together.
Least favourites:
The Slippery Slope- It's a big book for a story in which nothing much happens.
The Carniverous Carnival- For the same reasons.
Of course, none of the books are massive, nor are they utterly devoid of action. It's just that when I read them, I feel as if a long time has passed where things are relatively the same. I prefer the first six books for this reason; I like the idea of a compact adventure, rather than a long-duration search for answers that are never found.
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on Oct 18, 2014 9:59:30 GMT -5
Of course, none of the books are massive, nor are they utterly devoid of action. It's just that when I read them, I feel as if a long time has passed where things are relatively the same. I prefer the first six books for this reason; I like the idea of a compact adventure, rather than a long-duration search for answers that are never found. Interestingly, this is exactly why I adore especially the latter half of the series. Personally, the implied backstory, the parts that take a little detective work from the reader to pick up on, is exactly what's so great about Snicket - second to his narrative style and literary references. Which is also the problem with adaptions, I suppose. When, once in a while, I pick a random volume of ASOUE from the shelf to read something funny or clever or comforting (I expect I'm not the only one here who feels personally attached to Lemony, so you probably know what I mean), it's most likely to be TSS, because there are simply so many more details in it to get myself reminded of - The hidden letter, the VFD speculation, Violet and Quigley's moment of privacy (I guess you can call me sentimental  ), the MWABBNH and WWHBNB, the Snow Scout Alphabet Pledge, and, almost as importantly, the fact that Olaf adds the force of gravity to his list of enemies. xD This kind of details, rather than the actual plot, is what I love in ASOUE, and so I'm very much partial to the post-TVV books. I have different associations with each of the books, and so there's barely any of them that I can judge neutrally. I remember, at a young age, getting the Danish translations of TBB and TRR from my parents as entertainment for a long car trip (they seem to have served their purpose, as they still haven't stopped entertaining me). I remember that one time when a friend and I attempted to make an audiobook version of TBB (life got in the way of that, though, and we haven't got around to it since). I remember bringing the Danish translation of TVV along with me on a holiday when I was down about something, and it served as something of a comfort. I remember checking out THH from the library after learning that there were in fact more than seven books, and that only the translators, not the author, had given up. I remember simul-translating THH and TCC aloud to a girl I liked some years ago because she'd read the first seven in Danish but wasn't used to reading books in English. I remember, some way through TSS, realising that Lemony Snicket wasn't an actual person's name. I remember getting The Complete Wreck as a birthday present from my grandparents one year, and momentarily having wanted nothing more from life. I see ASOUE as a single work, but each book in the series holds its own merits to me. But there's none that I would want to be without. Not even TMM. |
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Post by Cafe SalMONAlla on Oct 21, 2014 19:39:54 GMT -5
My three favourites are TSS, TPP and TGG, in that order. TE was kind of let-down for me, so that would be my least favourite.
TMM isn't one of my favourites, but I prefer it to TE. I think it could be off-putting to start the series at TMM, given that for ages and ages the villain is only "this Olaf guy you keep talking about". Also, while hypnotism may be a real thing, the exaggerated and simplified version in TMM doesn't really fit the style of ASoUE. The series isn't quite fantasy, but certainly absurdist, and I don't feel like there are set parameters for what would exist and what wouldn't. But if I had read the previous three books, and had to take a guess, I'd say that mind control through hypnotism wouldn't.
I found the "turning point" of TVV to be much more interesting than that of TAA.
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Nov 1, 2014 11:21:00 GMT -5
To be honest, my favourite is whichever I'm reading at the time (and I'm pretty much constantly rereading them). I think I just get so immersed in whichever book that happens to be that I can never really choose a favourite. Obviously it's exciting as the series progresses that it gets more and more complicated and mysterious, but I think the early books are a part of that excitement -- you have to have those first few books simpler and less intricate than the later ones because it shows a fantastic progression. And just as much as I love the late books for their complications and detail, I love the early books for the nostalgic simplicity and innocence of them -- they're the beginning of the Baudelaires' understanding of the wicked way of the world, and their steady progression throughout the series is wonderful to behold.
Someone mentioned, in regards to TMM, that hypnotism isn't real, but it is in fact real. The best proof of this is that some people have gone through operations without anesthetics, but instead have been hypnotized so that although they are aware o the operation taking place, all they feel is a light tickling sensation instead of pain.
I would also like to briefly defend TMM -- as I said before, my favourite is simply whichever I'm reading at the time, and I think they all have qualities separate from each other which mark them out from each other, and I think TMM is no different in this. It's no more ridiculous than the others -- if Sunny can climb an elevator shaft with her teeth, she can have a sword fight with her teeth -- and is, I think, very spooky. I love the general atmosphere and description of the place -- it's one of the loneliest feeling settings, I think. Somehow Paltryville always feels one of the most desolate places in the series to me. And the sort of non-description at the end of what happens to Dr. Orwell is masterfully done. Very eerie, very dark, very subtle. Also I like the foreshadowing in terms of the stacks of newspapers mentioned in TUA. But then again that's not just something I love about TMM, but the way the books interlink in general ... anyway. This has been a very long comment and I should stop now.
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Post by Dante on Nov 1, 2014 17:28:03 GMT -5
Very long comments are welcome here, violetbunfortunate, as is a rare defence of TMM. It's not my favourite either, but I like what it has and I think the series could still have been very interesting if it had developed more along the lines of TMM, with more new villains known by Olaf - well, what else is Esmé? - and more strange, almost mystical plot devices like hypnotism, which after all is just an exaggeration of something that really exists. Babies can't swordfight with their teeth or climb elevator shafts with them in reality either, but the plot is careful to ground those things in real processes, so they too are exaggerations. The whole series is an exaggerated form of the real world, and that is at the heart of its sense of fun.
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Post by Violent BUN Fortuna on Nov 1, 2014 20:26:55 GMT -5
Oh good! Still navigating my way around the site ...
Definitely agree with everything you've said. I think the narrative style Snicket uses is such that even the downright absurd seems believable if extraordinary. When one reads the books, I think it's quite a testament to how skillfully written they are that things like Sunny's incredible dental-related escapades don't seem unbelievable. You're aware that it's bizarre and amazing, even within the ASOUE world, but you're still completely hooked. If it was poorly written, you might stop reading because it would just be too ridiculous, but because of Snicket's skill at writing with doom-laden humour and utter sincerity, the reader is just completely swept along with the ride -- when Violet and Klaus are sitting in the net waiting anxiously and supporting Sunny during her climb, the reader is sitting right there with them, believing everything that happens. Part of its success is also due, I think, to the way in which the real world is incorporated. You feel that you are a part of the ASOUE world, because Snicket talks directly to the reader, acknowledging their presence in his world, and vice versa. It makes you feel that all the mysteries in the world are just around the corner, hidden in a secret drawer or tucked in the pages of the dustiest book in the library. And I think that TMM has all those qualities just as much as the other books.
Evidently, however, there's something that makes it less popular than the others -- I wonder vaguely if it might be the change in guardianship; it's the first book in which the Baudelaires aren't taken into their guardian's proper home and treated as adopted children (bar Count Olaf's treatment, obviously), but are instead put to work and made to live with the other workers. Not that this makes the book any worse, but perhaps it just struck a wrong chord with some people, at this point in the series at least. Perhaps the lack of a proper guardian figure -- even Charles, nice though he is, doesn't really fill the role -- felt too abrupt a change for some people so early on in the series.
It's rather difficult for me to guess at to be honest, as I don't like it less than the other books, but in terms of how it's different from the first three, that's one main point. It might also be the role reversal. Being so used to Violet being the inventor and Klaus the researcher, the switch could feel strange? I think it was good to explore that at some point in the series; it added interest and also character development, but perhaps it didn't feel right to those who feel TMM is their least favourite? I'm just guessing now, really ...
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Post by gliquey on Nov 2, 2014 3:20:50 GMT -5
Evidently, however, there's something that makes it less popular than the others -- I wonder vaguely if it might be the change in guardianship; it's the first book in which the Baudelaires aren't taken into their guardian's proper home and treated as adopted children (bar Count Olaf's treatment, obviously), but are instead put to work and made to live with the other workers. Not that this makes the book any worse, but perhaps it just struck a wrong chord with some people, at this point in the series at least. Perhaps the lack of a proper guardian figure -- even Charles, nice though he is, doesn't really fill the role -- felt too abrupt a change for some people so early on in the series. But then again, TAA goes on to put the Baudelaires with another antagonistic guardian - Nero - and there's certainly no proper guardian figure there, as Isadora and Duncan definitely don't count. I like TMM, so I don't know why it seems to be the least favourite for a lot of people (other than the hypnotism, which apparently some people just didn't like), but I'd think most people would like Sir as a character (well, he returned in TPP at least, so Handler must have liked him). And since Charles and Hector as very similar characters, we can see what Charles would have been like as a proper guardian from TVV. |
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), the MWABBNH and WWHBNB, the Snow Scout Alphabet Pledge, and, almost as importantly, the fact that Olaf adds the force of gravity to his list of enemies. xD
