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Post by Charles Vane on Sept 20, 2013 1:49:10 GMT -5
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Sept 20, 2013 3:02:07 GMT -5
i mean just saying the word rape isn't offensive. they weren't talking about rape at all, there was no victim, it was just tobias being tobias. true, although i was kinda speaking broadly, including him being on "To catch a predator" or actually, for an even better example, the whole bunch of pedophile rapists preying on George Michael. That's not really dissimilar to the joke you assumed MisterM was making. ? EDIT: Also, I've seen that Louis C.K. bit, it's great, you should give "Lucky Louie" a try if you find "Louie" too dramatic.
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Sept 20, 2013 3:17:44 GMT -5
Maybe when a person is able to see rape mentioned in a row with all these other crimes and doesn't see a difference it shows that they do see it as a clear crime? Not all of these persons, but maybe some? Also I don't think all rape victims are completely innocent. But then I also don't think all murder or whatever victims were completely innocent. Actually I don't think any victim of a crime comitted by a not totally insane person is completely innocent. i think i get what you're saying, and maybe innocent isn't the best word to describe it. yeah people who commit crimes have motives for what they do, its not just the senseless violence an insane person might cause, but i don't think its a person who has nice stuffs fault if they get robbed for having nice stuff. yes i get that they did something to, like, make the crime happen(not the best word choice but idk), ie having nice stuff but they aren't to blame. you can't help if you're the victim of the crime, the only way to avoid it would be to lock yourself in your house and even then you're still vulnerable to arson, theft, online scams, whatever. am i close-ish to what you were saying? Yes, that's kind of what I mean. But I also think if people have decide to drink alcohol, they have put themselves in a situation where they aren't able to think properly, so its maybe their fault in a way. If people want to get drunk, they can do it in a safe situation, with people they trust and with not too many people, and in the best case with one person who doesn't drink, or at least not much, to keep their head clear and look after the others a little bit. If there is a drunk person and a not-drunk person, the not-drunk person should stop things from happening, and no matter if that's a man or a woman the not-drunk person has the responsibility. Most of the time it seems like people think if the woman isn't drunk but the man is, he raped her. And if the man isn't drunk but the woman is, he raped her too. Can that really be 21st century? And some women (especially young girls) are trying to look sexually attractive all the time. Sexy, not beautiful. Of course that's no reason to actually rape them or even touch them, but they can't really complain if someone makes a stupid comment or stares at them for a moment, and most of them already feel already half raped when they are only looked at or told that they're sexy by strangers. Of course if strangers try to touch them or anything, it's not okay. And also if men walk around as half naked as some women do it's a crime. idk maybe it's just because I live somewhere without dressing rules at schools, and there were some skirts sometimes where I wasn't sure if it's really a skirt or just a big belt.
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Post by BSam on Sept 20, 2013 4:31:11 GMT -5
so yes. you are victim blaming. (edit: rereading your post it feels like you're trying not to, but you still are)
don't do that. seriously.
you may think it's harmless, or even helpful to tell girls to not dress nice or have a drink and have fun, but if something happened to the girl, she's going through enough crap she doesn't need you judging her at the same time.
also if the girl is able to go to the police, they ask the same question "what were you wearing, how much did you drink" the police are trying to share some of the blame onto the raped girl. this is not a good situation. but it's our culture, our rape culture where if a girl is raped then it must be because of something she did or said or wore. in truth it's because someone made the decision to rape. this is the only reason why someone got raped, because someone decided to do a rape.
"Most of the time it seems like people think if the woman isn't drunk but the man is, he raped her. And if the man isn't drunk but the woman is, he raped her too. Can that really be 21st century?"
depends how drunk. sounds like in those hypotheticals the man in the first one got violent drunk, angry drunk, rapey drunk. in the second it sounds like the girl got drunk and possibly passed out, and she is being taken advantage of by someone. those situations aren't really comparable in the way you are explaining. while i'm not saying women can't be rapists, it's a lot rarer than male rapists (99% of convicted rapists in the US are male)
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Sept 20, 2013 5:01:52 GMT -5
I mean in both cases the drunk person says "Let's have sex" and maybe starts doing things to the not-drunk person, who doesn't do anything against it. Edit: And isn't easy to get rid of by saying "go away, you're drunk", but too drunk to keep standing when they are pushed away.
And I don't think anyone ever decides to rape someone. It's hormones and stuff that make people want to have sex, and maybe some can't really control it.
And it can never be wrong to just tell people to be careful. You can also tell children not to go away with strangers, without blaming them. So why not tell girls to just wear clothes and not drink too much?
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Sept 20, 2013 5:04:55 GMT -5
But that doesnt work. You ca tell people not to drink (altho i would, but not in this respect) But also, jsut becuase someone is drunk, wearin to little clothes, etc, doesnt chane the fact its rape. And that is what anka is sayin.
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Post by penne on Sept 20, 2013 5:05:38 GMT -5
It's not against the law to look sexy or have a drink. People have the right to do that. It is, however, against the law to rape someone.
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Sept 20, 2013 5:16:00 GMT -5
It's also not against the law to climb on the top of a house. But it can be dangerous.
I feel more respected as a woman when people think I can look after myself and be responsible for what I'm doing and when it's my own job to make people not rape me, not when they always see me as a weak victim.
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Post by BSam on Sept 20, 2013 6:12:51 GMT -5
It's not against the law to look sexy or have a drink. People have the right to do that. It is, however, against the law to rape someone.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Sept 20, 2013 6:36:45 GMT -5
It's not against the law to look sexy or have a drink. People have the right to do that. It's not against the law to climb on the top of a house. But it can be dangerous. Of course if strangers try to touch them or anything, it's not okay. Mayeb im stupid or somethin, but i cant really tell very well what everyone is tryin to say. Im not sure who is disagreeing with who... I mean, i kind of agree with everyone. I cant really tell any differences between what eahc fo you are saying Anka - Drunk people are more likely to be raped, and the sex is sometimes more confused becuase of the drunkedness. And that women sometimes dont help themselves by wearin revealing clothing, but that doesnt amke the rape any worse. Well, yes to all of those things. BSam - The police would try to shift blame onto the girl becuase of rape culture, and you seem to agree about the drunk thing Also, 'it's a lot rarer than male rapists (99% of convicted rapists in the US are male)' i may be unterly wrong on this, but i think men are not veyr leikly to say 'a woman raped me' Pen - You say that dirnkin and wearin stuff isnt illegal.... correct. But im not sure if you say you agree with either Anka or BSam, but i cant actually see many differences anyway Am i correct in that this is what has happened? I agree with all three of you, by the way Also, BSam, i think you are kind of twistin peoples words sometimes. Mayybe ot intetioanlly (at least i hope not). I think soemtimes either a) you misunderstand what people mean or b) i misunderstand you. Im not bein mea ro aythin - - im just sayin i find it difficult to understand what you are tryin to say sometimes. Plus, people, i know we are discussin serious issues, but lets try ad keep the love . Soemtimes people ca be either itentionally or unintentionally mea to each other in debates like this. But i think... if you disagree with someones opinions, even if you seem to be in a minority, i think acttin annoyed / angry / mean to other people wont help to change their views. You need to be, idk, nice and respect ehri opinions otherwise they will just harden them and not change. Im just sayin this now ebcuase i can see this turnin nasty, and it shouldnt.
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Post by Kit's tits kick ticks on Sept 20, 2013 7:21:32 GMT -5
Also I think just stating what is against the law and what not isn't really good because everyone wants some laws to be changed, and I think everyone can agree that laws aren't perfect.
And I kind of said, or wanted to say:
- Of course nobody should be allowed to rape anyone. - We can't stop all rape right at this second, so people should avoid situations where it could happen to them. It's not wrong to tell people how to avoid these situations. - Drinking can be dangerous in many ways, because people don't know what they do when they are really drunk, so they should think carefully if they want to take that risk before they drink. - We shouldn't always assume that men are the criminals and women are the victims. 1. because it's not always true, and 2. because it makes women look weaker than they are, or at least weaker than they say they are when it's about other topics.
Sorry if I maybe didn't say clear enough what I mean.
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Post by Hermes on Sept 20, 2013 8:32:23 GMT -5
I think it's true that, in general, giving people advice on how to protect themselves is not the same as blaming them when they become victims. In other areas we do give people advice on protecting themselves without blaming them. To that extent I agree with Anka - her example of warning children not to go with strangers is a good one.
What's special about this case is that there's a long history of holding women responsible for rape, and even sympathising with the rapist, in a way there generally isn't with other crimes. Because of this, focusing on things women can do to protect themselves, rather than on the responsibilities of men, (which often happens) can easily acquire overtones of blaming women, and can be harmful because it continues to encourage that way of thinking.
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Post by Poe's Coats Host Toast on Sept 20, 2013 9:21:36 GMT -5
But I also think if people have decide to drink alcohol, they have put themselves in a situation where they aren't able to think properly, so its maybe their fault in a way. If people want to get drunk, they can do it in a safe situation, with people they trust and with not too many people, and in the best case with one person who doesn't drink, or at least not much, to keep their head clear and look after the others a little bit. If there is a drunk person and a not-drunk person, the not-drunk person should stop things from happening, and no matter if that's a man or a woman the not-drunk person has the responsibility. This might be a good argument to prove that a victim has been careless (if you want to add salt to the wound), but in no way is an argument for their fault. You make it seem like rape is an accident, like falling from the roof of a house you say, and not a deliberate crime done by another person. A genital doesn't just accidentally fall into another genital. I agree however that educating people on the perils of rape beforehand is a good idea. also if the girl is able to go to the police, they ask the same question "what were you wearing, how much did you drink" the police are trying to share some of the blame onto the raped girl. this is not a good situation. but it's our culture, our rape culture where if a girl is raped then it must be because of something she did or said or wore. in truth it's because someone made the decision to rape. this is the only reason why someone got raped, because someone decided to do a rape. While the first question is indeed ridiculous, the second one ("how much did you drink?") is valid. If the accused perpetrator has been also drunk at the time of the incident, it gets much more complicated. When you're drunk you do things you normally wouldn't do, like hit on somebody who is drunk as well, and not remember it afterwards. In that case nobody made the decision to rape and, like it's been said before, it's more like they raped each other. while i'm not saying women can't be rapists, it's a lot rarer than male rapists (99% of convicted rapists in the US are male) ^Not an accurate statistic. There are many discussions on the topic, but the general consensus is that men mostly don't report being raped, usually because of masculine stereotypes (i.e. out of fear for being ridiculed, out of confusion on the term rape because of the stereotype that only women are raped, etc). So if anything, it's downplayed.
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Post by Linda Rhaldeen on Sept 20, 2013 9:23:26 GMT -5
Hermes touched on what I was about to say. It's not a bad thing in and of itself to give safety tips to women, much like the don't talk to strangers that we tell little kids, but the difference is no one in their right mind is going to say it's the little kid's fault for getting kidnapped, no matter how irresponsible they were acting, yet somehow it's okay to blame a woman if she gets raped.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Sept 20, 2013 9:53:47 GMT -5
You make it seem like rape is an accident, like falling from the roof of a house you say - You;re misreaidn that, Anka meant clmbin on the roof of a house is stupid, like drinkin,
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