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Post by Charlie on Nov 8, 2015 23:05:39 GMT -5
Ok I may be wrong, but wasn't it mentioned that the Queequeg was in Lake Anwhistle at some point. Perhaps Josephine organised to escape from Curdled Cave in the Queequeg, and was simply biding time until then? Perhaps with Hurricane Ivan predicted it wasn't feasible to leave town by another means, or perhaps she noticed Olaf had his henchmen set up at the border, or perhaps her fears kept her in check.
I know I'm reaching, but in theory it works, right?
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Post by Dante on Nov 9, 2015 3:42:37 GMT -5
That's a reasonable connection to make, yes; the Queequeg did patrol Lake Lachrymose for years, with Widdershins knowing Josephine personally. It doesn't do much for the circumstances of Josephine's recognition of Olaf, though, those being that he flirted with her and then called her on the telephone and just told her that he was Count Olaf.
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gaston
Bewildered Beginner
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Post by gaston on Jun 28, 2020 17:41:48 GMT -5
What confuses me is that there was the picture of the Baudelaire parents with Monty in the piano and count Olaf says he took the picture.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jun 28, 2020 18:39:48 GMT -5
Hello! Thank you for asking about this. I suggest to the administrator moderator ( Dante) that this question can be carried over to our re-watching the series in episodes 3 and 4. Well, the answer has to do with the canon of the TV series which is different from the canon of the book series. In the book series, this does not happen. In fact, when Daniel Handler wrote TRR, he hadn't been thinking about VFD. However, when the TV series was produced, the situation was different. There was already a whole mythology produced, and this allowed the show's writers to insert elements related to VFD mythology. Among these elements is the fact that Count Olaf was an associate on the fire fighting side until there was what I call the Olaf Schism. At the time of Lemony's almost marriage to Beatrice, Olaf turned against VFD, starting his violence against the secret organization. He began to ally himself with the incendiary side, which had been around since Kit was a 4-year-old child. Thus, in the show, the photo that Olaf took represented the fact that Olaf was once a supporter of Beatrice and Bertrand. The fact that they were on the piano was necessary in order not to spoil the Red Haring involving the Quagmire parents. |
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TheAsh
Formidable Foreman
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Post by TheAsh on Jun 29, 2020 8:18:34 GMT -5
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Post by Marlowe on Jul 1, 2020 17:41:41 GMT -5
My personal theory for Josephine not recognizing Olaf is that it is because she is suffering from dementia.
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Post by counto on Aug 19, 2020 4:07:20 GMT -5
I think the reason they failed to recognise Count Olaf was because adults can't see through his disguises, whether children can clearly see through him.
It's a small theory, but it might be possible.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 19, 2020 10:45:06 GMT -5
In my headcannon this is because professional VFD hypnotists disguised as ophthalmologists create a mental mechanism in which VFD disguises always become credible. However, Beatrice was very careful not to take Klaus to these types of ophthalmologists. This would explain why Olaf himself would be able to be deceived by his own clothes in T.C.C. And Olivia Taliban was not recognized for that.
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Post by Dante on Aug 19, 2020 13:05:03 GMT -5
I have occasionally pictured to myself a version of the series post-TMM which centred on hypnotism as a plot device; it's not unreasonable to think that such a thing might have been written, instead of what we got. For that reason, such a suggestion is not entirely strange to me (though I couldn't believe it myself).
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Post by gothicarchiesfan on Aug 21, 2020 5:37:45 GMT -5
I have occasionally pictured to myself a version of the series post-TMM which centred on hypnotism as a plot device; it's not unreasonable to think that such a thing might have been written, instead of what we got. For that reason, such a suggestion is not entirely strange to me (though I couldn't believe it myself). The impression I always got, and this could very well be wrong, is that Daniel Handler didn't really love the hypnosis elements of the fourth book but just used them because he had to get it written as quickly as possible and didn't have enough time for rewrites. He certainly never brought it up again and even though it does appear in the TV show, it's somewhat more downplayed than in the book. Olaf even says that he enjoyed his plots more when they were "simple, straightforward, and didn't employ any high concept science-fiction gimmicks". |
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Post by Dante on Aug 21, 2020 16:27:51 GMT -5
I wouldn't be so sure of that. The hypnotism device strikes me as an example of Handler playing with the possibilities of the eye motif he's establishing; given that he had to be thinking at this point about what he would do if his contract was extended, and given that V.F.D. shows up in the very next book, I think the apropos-of-nothing Orwell was Handler experimenting with ideas for how he could expand the world he was building. It's easy to say in retrospect that it didn't come off - but at the time, who was to say that it was a bad fit? So I think Handler was giving it a try to see how he felt about it, rather than just churning out a particularly weird book to fill out his contracted tetralogy.
What the Netflix does is it looks at how the hypnosis element retroactively becomes a worse fit in the light of the rest of the series, and it at once tries to ground it whilst also commenting on it.
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Amber Rivers
Reptile Researcher
I need Esme x Beatrice fanfiction please. Heal my soul.
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Post by Amber Rivers on Mar 13, 2021 6:34:28 GMT -5
The orphans first two guardians after Olaf seem extremely ignorant of who Count Olaf is, but since they were members of VFD wouldn't they have known him and his treachery? Maybe they were pretending so that they wouldn't have to answer awkward questions, and to shield the children from knowing too much about the volunteers/schism. I've always wondered this. Probably they were scared? That's my first thought. I mean, if all your life you are trained to do various disguises, and such, you would know a person in disguise. However, this version of Josephine is a shadow of her former self. I think her grief with Ike's passing messed up her judgment. Monty, on the other hand, is paranoid but his focus is on the Herpetological Society so maybe he was preoccupied. |
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Post by Glittery666 on Sept 20, 2021 12:07:09 GMT -5
My take is that Monty is overly trusting and Josephine is traumatized.
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183231bcb
Bewildered Beginner
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Post by 183231bcb on Sept 29, 2023 22:16:15 GMT -5
In Monty's case, I think he was initially fooled, but that he eventually realized the truth and fired "Stephano." Going off memory, but I thought the book stated the Baudelaires could see through Olaf's disguises because they lived with him for awhile so they could recognize him easily. Montgomerie didn't have that advantage, but he knew enough to figure it out eventually, and we know he eventually tried to get rid of Stephano.
Why didn't he tell the Baudelaires? I think for the same reason that Beatrice and Bertrand didn't tell them about V.F.D.: They realized that the V.F.D. practice of training child soldiers (as the Baudelaire Parents and Snicket Siblings essentially were) is wrong, and they wanted their kids to experience childhood and learn about V.F.D. when they were older.
Josephine is more interesting. My first time through the series, I took Josephine's apparent naivety at face value. The kind of person who is terrified of door knobs could also be the kind of person who thinks a buisness card is infallible proof of identity. Later information contradicts that interpretation: Josephine grew up with Count Olaf and Lemony, she was trained from early childhood as a V.F.D. agent, and she uses V.F.D. codes. She's also well-read enough to know that "Sham" is a word which here means "A villain in disguise." 20 years ago, I thought this was a plot hole. Now, though, I think the explanation is hidden in plain site in Book Five.
Klaus pretends to be fooled by Coach Genghis' disguise. After Violet and Sunny follow suit, Klaus explains that he hopes Count Olaf will be less cautious if he believes he's fooled the Baudelaires. I believe Aunt Josephine recognizes Count Olaf almost immediately, but she pretends not to recognize him in the hopes she can avoid falling victim to his scheme.
Her subsequent actions are far from ideal, of course, but I think that can be explained by her fear. For all her phobias, one fear she has which is completely rational is her fear of Count Olaf. Fear can lead to people making irrational decisions. If Josephine had been thinking more clearly, she could have brought the children home after their first meeting with Captain Sham, and immediately told them she knows that Sham is Count Olaf. She could have then hatched a plan to flee with them, and told them about V.F.D.
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Post by tricky on Oct 8, 2023 11:40:49 GMT -5
In Monty's case, I think he was initially fooled, but that he eventually realized the truth and fired "Stephano." Going off memory, but I thought the book stated the Baudelaires could see through Olaf's disguises because they lived with him for awhile so they could recognize him easily. Montgomerie didn't have that advantage, but he knew enough to figure it out eventually, and we know he eventually tried to get rid of Stephano. Why didn't he tell the Baudelaires? I think for the same reason that Beatrice and Bertrand didn't tell them about V.F.D.: They realized that the V.F.D. practice of training child soldiers (as the Baudelaire Parents and Snicket Siblings essentially were) is wrong, and they wanted their kids to experience childhood and learn about V.F.D. when they were older. Josephine is more interesting. My first time through the series, I took Josephine's apparent naivety at face value. The kind of person who is terrified of door knobs could also be the kind of person who thinks a buisness card is infallible proof of identity. Later information contradicts that interpretation: Josephine grew up with Count Olaf and Lemony, she was trained from early childhood as a V.F.D. agent, and she uses V.F.D. codes. She's also well-read enough to know that "Sham" is a word which here means "A villain in disguise." 20 years ago, I thought this was a plot hole. Now, though, I think the explanation is hidden in plain site in Book Five. Klaus pretends to be fooled by Coach Genghis' disguise. After Violet and Sunny follow suit, Klaus explains that he hopes Count Olaf will be less cautious if he believes he's fooled the Baudelaires. I believe Aunt Josephine recognizes Count Olaf almost immediately, but she pretends not to recognize him in the hopes she can avoid falling victim to his scheme. Her subsequent actions are far from ideal, of course, but I think that can be explained by her fear. For all her phobias, one fear she has which is completely rational is her fear of Count Olaf. Fear can lead to people making irrational decisions. If Josephine had been thinking more clearly, she could have brought the children home after their first meeting with Captain Sham, and immediately told them she knows that Sham is Count Olaf. She could have then hatched a plan to flee with them, and told them about V.F.D. very astute observations ! there are lots of theories as to why the "guardians" were unable to do so. one of the most recent is the mass hypnosis hypothesis by our tortuous theorist jeanlucio10. another complication is how close the families are linked. unfortunately, it is most simply summed up by "all of the adults are ignorant" |
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