Noe
Catastrophic Captain
???
Posts: 93
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Post by Noe on Nov 13, 2016 22:09:39 GMT -5
just started rereading the BB.. I haven't read it since I was in 4th grade at about age 10, 14 years ago! Wow. I've forgotten so many details that I'm already really enjoying it like it's new to me.. but what's feeling strange is that back then, I envisioned Brett Helquist's characters while reading, and now I'm seeing the Netflix cast in my head! However, for some reason I'm not seeing Neil Patrick Harris as Olaf.. he doesn't seem skinny and tall enough.. but I'm definitely seeing the Netflix versions of the Baudelaire orphans and Mr. Poe. It'll probably change for Olaf as NPH over time. I know you can't get every detail right. Also, I never realized Brett Helquist made Violet seem waaay older than 14 in the art compared to Klaus, she's much taller! Netflix cast seems even more close to the book
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Post by Linda Rhaldeen on Nov 13, 2016 23:53:12 GMT -5
^In regards to Violet being taller, this is normal for their ages since girls hit their puberty growth spurt 1-2 years earlier than boys. I have a brother 2 years younger than me, and when we were 12 and 14 we were at the peak of our height disparity, with me nearly done growing and 7 inches taller. I only grew one more inch, and my brother grew 12 more inches to reach our adult heights.
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Noe
Catastrophic Captain
???
Posts: 93
Likes: 82
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Post by Noe on Nov 14, 2016 2:14:45 GMT -5
^In regards to Violet being taller, this is normal for their ages since girls hit their puberty growth spurt 1-2 years earlier than boys. I have a brother 2 years younger than me, and when we were 12 and 14 we were at the peak of our height disparity, with me nearly done growing and 7 inches taller. I only grew one more inch, and my brother grew 12 more inches to reach our adult heights. Yeah, I considered Helquist was taking that stuff into account, but I mean based on most of his illustrations, she still looks a lot older in comparison to the Netflix version of Violet. The actors are pretty much the same height, and as it turns out the boy is two years older than the girl who plays Violet. Anyway, main point being that the actress just seemed a lot younger than I have always imagined and now the characters are just being rewired into my brain in a whole new way.
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Post by Esmé's meme is meh on Nov 14, 2016 21:59:49 GMT -5
Before I join the discussion properly, I'll start sharing some notes I took on my re-reading of the Spanish and English versions and their differences. This post is only about Chapter 1 and 2, though.
Before starting with it, it's important to say that the books are translated in Spain Spanish, which is completely different than the South American Spanish. Most of us hate their translations because they include a lot of words and forms that are only used in Spain.
*The books were translated as A Series of Catastrophic Misfortunes (even when "A Series of Unfortunate Events" is possible; actually that's how the movie and the Netflix show are re translated).
*The Bad Beginning is translated as A Bad Beginning; this may be taken as a minor detail, but in my opinion it changes the tone. Is not the same to talk about one random beginning than THE beginning of the proper series of unfortunate events.
*Most (if not all) of the alliterations disappear. I was surprised because they're pretty obvious, and a lot of them can be easily translated. The title "Un mal principio" could have been "El catastrófico comienzo", for example. Some of the alliterations lost: Briny Beach becomes Salty Beach, Doldrum Drive becomes Desolated Avenue. Fickle Fountain has a literal translation (Fuente Voluble) losing the alliteration
*The verbal time changes sometimes from past to present and I can't find a reason to this ("This particular morning" in p. 2 becomes "That particular morning"). They omit some adjectives too for no reason ("murky water" in p. 2 becomes just "water").
*Sunny's "actual words" don't make much phonetic sense in Spanish. "Bottle" and "bite" are short and easy words for a baby to say, but the literal translation in Spanish to "botella" and "mordisco" are long and hard. I can't imagine a baby pronouncing that.
*In p. 8, Klaus is grumpy instead of crossed. I don't understand this change either, I don't imagine someone who just lost his parents being just grumpy.
*The executor part also is kinda lost in translation. They use "testamentary executor" instead of just "executor"; even though "ejecutor" has the double meaning as "executor" in English, is not common since we use "verdugo" to refer to the person who's on charge of executing people. In p. 9 it says: "He said he was the testamentary executor, and Violet had the feeling that he was really an executor, a "verdugo"."
*In p. 11, instead of saying "even Sunny" to make it clear that the youngest Baudelaire is too young to understand what's going on and, in consequence, feel bad about it, the translation just says "Violet, Klaus and Sunny".
*The clothes Mrs. Poe buys is of bright colors instead of grotesque.
*Some phrases like "Rise and shine" (p. 17) are simplified (just "Get up")
*The explanation of some words is pretty poor. In p. 18, the definition of "briskly" comes in a weird way: "he said in an energetic way. The word "energetic" here means "quickly, to make the Baudelaire children to leave the house". If you replace the word energetic with that definition followed by "way" it makes no sense at all, since they changed a word for a construction.
*Justice Strauss becomes Justicia Strauss. Even when I personally don't like the translation of the names, in this case kinda makes sense, since she admits its not her name but her title.
*Olaf's wheezy whisper becomes sibilant instead.
*In p. 24, Mr. Poe says "Every time you have a problem, you can find me at the bank" instead of "You can always contact me at the bank if you have any questions". This change actually is good in my opinion, since it foresees how useless Mr. Poe will be in the future when the kids need him.
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Post by Linda Rhaldeen on Nov 14, 2016 23:30:01 GMT -5
^This reminded me that I read The Wide Window and The Miserable Mill in high school in Spanish; our Spanish teacher had us read books with a dictionary throughout the year and write down at least 10 new words a week that we learned. He had a bunch of Arthur books and other illustrated easy books that most people read but I being the overachiever that I was went to the library and found ASOUE (I think those were the only two the library had). I do remember there being a lot of word choices that I had never encountered and the style in general being different than what I was used to in class, or in the other two novels I ended up reading that year. I guess that makes sense since in the US we learn Latin American Spanish for the most part.
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Post by lorelai on Nov 15, 2016 1:53:14 GMT -5
Two things come to mind upon finishing my reread (and plotting final essays, which is why there's sadly only two things). First, in Snicketverse, it's telling that Lemony doesn't say very much about Beatrice (in any form of reference, though a few repeats about the children's "kind father") as compared to other books. He's doing a good job at not getting emotionally involved and just staying the narrator--a character, yes, but one who mostly provides humor and explanations, not someone we care about (except maybe to wonder what town near us he's forbidden from entering, and what he did, since he's kind enough to hope we aren't bankrobbers)--a thing that will change as the series progresses. Also, Handler clearly remembered the bankrobber bit for TAA. Second, from a story perspective, I love that neither Violet or Klaus tell the other about their plans. Not only is it a great way of showing how innocent they are, and how they're not used to working together, but it also brings home what a sheltered life they lived compared to Lemony in ATWQ, or even Olaf. His point about them having read more books then him, but boiling down to them not having street smaarts is one of the things VFD teaches (and I now believe Olaf cheated during any non-practical exams, since reading is just as valued). I couldn't help thinking that Lemony (or any young VFD members) would have either told Violet what they'd learned so she could call Mr. Poe WHILE the other confronted Olaf, or conversely had Klaus case the joint while the other deployed the grappling hook (not that it would have gotten them anywhere unless there was no longer a guard on the door and Klaus could've convinced Fernald to come out, but the former might have ment they learned Sunny was gone sooner). It's just a wonderful way to convey so much so briefly.
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Post by Dante on Nov 15, 2016 4:32:55 GMT -5
Interesting notes on the Spanish translation, Zortegus. It doesn't appear to have been approached with an artist's eye for the many little things that make Snicket's style tick.
lorelai, I also appreciate your insight on the solitary workings of the Baudelaires in TBB; in subsequent books they tend to operate more as a single unit, but in TBB they appear to be more inclined to approach their problems individually. While you read this as a lack of awareness of the value of strategy, I wonder if this suggests that they often lived quite separate lives before the fire? They all went to Briny Beach together, of course, but they seem to have done quite different things there, too, without really engaging in what the others are doing. I also wonder at what point Handler decided that Beatrice would be the Baudelaire mother; personally, I think it was probably always the plan long-term (though he may have wobbled on it for a while), but there isn't really any sign of it in TBB.
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Post by Hermes on Nov 15, 2016 8:18:44 GMT -5
Zortegus, 'executor' doesn't have a double meaning in English; the word for the person who performs executions is 'executioner'. I can see that if one word can mean both, that would make the passage hard to translate: 'he said he was X, but Violet felt he was Y' doesn't make sense if X and Y are the same word.
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Post by mortinson51 on Nov 15, 2016 18:24:58 GMT -5
Having now finished book the first. It's great to see the amount of growth the children do growing up through the series. One of the things that frustrated me about Klaus, was him always telling Olaf his plan. But as the series progresses he realizes that keeping his mouth shut is sometimes better.
It will be interested to see the VFD themes they add into the show since the first book has nothing to do with VFD. It's only with the rare edition notes that Snicket rectifies this by adding in VFD allusion.
One of the big themes in the rare edition notes is about the Royal Gardens. I am curious if this is going to come a subplot in the first 2 episode to help show Olaf's Villainy. And since Jacques play a big role in it I wonder if we will be seeing him in earlier in the story.
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Post by lorelai on Nov 17, 2016 13:13:43 GMT -5
Interesting notes on the Spanish translation, Zortegus. It doesn't appear to have been approached with an artist's eye for the many little things that make Snicket's style tick. lorelai, I also appreciate your insight on the solitary workings of the Baudelaires in TBB; in subsequent books they tend to operate more as a single unit, but in TBB they appear to be more inclined to approach their problems individually. While you read this as a lack of awareness of the value of strategy, I wonder if this suggests that they often lived quite separate lives before the fire? They all went to Briny Beach together, of course, but they seem to have done quite different things there, too, without really engaging in what the others are doing. I also wonder at what point Handler decided that Beatrice would be the Baudelaire mother; personally, I think it was probably always the plan long-term (though he may have wobbled on it for a while), but there isn't really any sign of it in TBB. I can see them growing up as individuals as you say, and their lack of strategic planning is certainly not a bad thing. In verse, it seems to hint at Beatrice and Bertrand's desire to give them a "normal" life, but naturally they'd encourage individual interests; this also adds more weight to their memories of their parents, because the only time the whole family came together for long periods of time was due to them. It's an interesting dynamic that I don't think I've thought about seriously, knowing each other and loving each other, but not being close enough to confide in because providing false hope is more of a concern. I agree with your thoughts about Beatrice; it's great having the Leonard Marcus interview with this first produced audiobook, because by 2001 Handler evidently had the Beatrice plan in place.
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Post by gliquey on Nov 18, 2016 18:01:34 GMT -5
Okay so I've finished re-reading TBB and here are the rest of my thoughts: Olaf's face looks really long on the front cover compared to NPH's Olaf, who seems to have a face really squished together. I guess I'll get used to it. TBB was banned by some school libraries because of the incest undertones in this book; I've always dismissed that because, well, Olaf isn't marrying Violet for anything other than the Baudelaire fortune. But rereading the book, I was a bit more alarmed by the pedophilic undertones in the novel: Olaf calls Violet "pretty" on multiple occasions, Fernald does once, and the lines [Fernald speaking to Olaf] "of course I understand she's yours" (p.126) and [Olaf speaking] "my bride and I need to go home for our wedding night" (p.148) are very creepy. Beatrice is mentioned in the dedication, and as the subject of a blurry photograph Snicket keeps in his room. Now, I wonder whether by this point Handler is already thinking the Beatrice is the Baudelaire's mother. Snicket says on the blurb that "it is [his] sad duty" to research and record the life of the Baudelaire orphans - when Handler wrote this, was he already thinking of a reason Snicket would consider it a duty? It makes sense when you consider that they are the children of the woman he was/is obsessed with - and some fans have even suggested Lemony was the father of at least one of the children, in which case it makes even more sense. Mr. Poe says "Count Olaf is the only relative who lives within the urban limits" - what about Jerome Squalor? I believe he says in TEE that he wanted to adopt the children since the fire, but couldn't because orphans were "out". A lot of the timeline of Jerome and Esme doesn't really make any sense at all: TUA really messes it up by telling us they got married so soon after meeting, and implying that Esme married him for the penthouse apartment. So perhaps Jerome was living elsewhere at the time of TBB? But really there's inconsistency here however you look at it. And on the subject of the Baudelaires' guardian, I hope the Netflix series does a better job of explaining why Bertrand and Beatrice wrote a will that ended up giving the children to Olaf. As members of V.F.D., they should have taken the possibility of someone murdering them more seriously, and even if Olaf "travels around the world with various theater companies" (, surely they could have made a better plan than "give the kids to the closest relative you can find". There are ways to solve this problem - their will could have been forged, for instance. Netflix gets a second chance to put this right - well, a third chance if you consider the movie just glossed over the issue. I also can't really tell whether Olaf is supposed to be clever or stupid. On one hand, Snicket says things like "[Olaf] was very smart after all" (p.108), but really? In what way? He's a terrible actor (as evidence by the audience hating his play), so egotistic I'd call him delusional, and he is outwitted by a fourteen year old (albeit a protagonist and very intelligent child). I think maybe the idea is that he's supposed to be smarter than all the other adults in the series, despite his incredible stupidity when making disguises, concocting bizarre plans to get the fortune etc. Others have said this book is less fanciful than the rest of the series, but I think Violet's grappling hook invention is just as ridiculous as some of the rest of ASOUE - it's plausible but barely so: she's climbing up cut up bits of clothing on a windy night with the entire grappling hook being supported only by Fernald's hook. The book can't decide on whether in this world, wives of counts are called "Countess" (p.150, Olaf) or "Contessa" (p.153, Snicket). Fernald finds the Baudelaire children at Justice Strauss' house, but what? He creeps up on Klaus in the library while Violet, Sunny and Strauss are in the garden. Did he break into her house? And how did he even know where to look for the children? This bit doesn't make sense to me. Another confusing plot point: when was Sunny kidnapped? Klaus is speaking to Olaf, then as soon as he finishes he runs upstairs and finds Sunny gone. Before the conversation, Olaf has no reason to kidnap Sunny. After the conversation, Olaf has no time to get Fernald to kidnap Sunny. During the conversation, he has no way of contacting Fernald, surely - they seem to communicate via walkie-talkie but Klaus would have notice Olaf talking into a walkie-talkie. And even if he gave instructions to Fernald whilst Klaus was talking to him, how did Fernald get to Olaf's house so fast? Surely he would have had to be already inside the house to kidnap Sunny so quickly, and there's no sign that any of the theater troupe live with Olaf. I feel like the "literally" vs "figuratively" definitions Snicket gives (p.68) become more relevant every time I read it, and it should be a mandatory passage to study in English classes - it really annoys me that the word "literally" has essentially lost all meaning through it being misused so often (a friend said "That was literally the worst thing" today), and it's now just basically a way of emphasising something. On page 136/137, the children try to convince Justice Strauss to mix her lines up in the play a bit, but even if she agreed to it, surely the marriage would still be legally binding as the only relevant requirement is the "presence of a judge", not a verbatim script delivered by a judge. Mr. Poe tries to arrest Olaf (p.155) - but he works at a bank; he's not a police officer. I wonder if he thinks he's performing a citizen's arrest. Violet is more useful than Klaus in this book - she makes a grappling hook, signs the marriage document with her left hand and turns the lights back on in the theater. All he does is the inheritance law reading. The disparity between the siblings is really clear in this book - the older you are, the bigger the role you get. In the UK hardback edition of TBB, page 60 isn't numbered, although I can see no reason for it not to be. I've never noticed this before, but I presume it's a printing mistake. The back of the book says "Lemony Snicket [...] now lives in the city" - I suppose that this is his permanent residence when he's not on the run. On the very next page, in the note to the editor, he says he's in London (one of the rare real place names mentioned in ASOUE). I don't get the editor's note line about "one of the few photographs of Dr. Lucafont" - does Snicket mean that "this is one of the few pictures of Fernald wearing the doctor disguise"? Or "this is one of the few pictures of Fernald"? I originally assumed the latter, but I can't see why there would be a particular scarcity of photos of Fernald, so maybe it's the former. But the most natural reading of the line contradicts the idea that Dr. Lucafont is Fernald in disguise - it seems like it's talking about a real person. And then I've seen these things discussed on 667 before but I feel they're worth reiterating: "[Sunny] tottered onstage" (p.153) is a continuity error, really, as her 'first walk' at the end of TVV is a big deal in terms of her character development, and ends the book on a positive note. The "wart-faced man", described as one of Olaf's accomplices, is retconned out of existence by TRR - other people working on the play are "three very short men" and "a woman with very short hair" (p.134), although as it is mentioned that not all of the actors knew about Olaf's plan, these four problem aren't villains. Olaf's note for dinner with the theater troupe says "all ten of them" - specifically "them", not including himself. The children then buy 13 portions of food, for the 10 troupe members, Olaf, and themselves - someone's going to go hungry, but no-one seems to. And I don't remember this ever being brought up, but let's count the troupe members present that night: Olaf, Fernald, the bald man, two white-faced women, the androgynous assistant and 4/5 others. Presumably, they're all villains, because Snicket describes their rude behaviour with disdain, and they all seem to be socialising with each other. So who are these other people and why are they not part of the "theater troupe" in later books? I really enjoyed rereading TBB and it surprised me how many thoughts I hadn't considered before, given the amount of times I've read it. If anyone's still reading this post, firstly wow (it's almost as long as TBB itself ), and secondly if you have any thoughts on my thoughts I would love to hear them.
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Post by mortinson51 on Nov 18, 2016 19:29:39 GMT -5
Beatrice is mentioned in the dedication, and as the subject of a blurry photograph Snicket keeps in his room. Now, I wonder whether by this point Handler is already thinking the Beatrice is the Baudelaire's mother. Snicket says on the blurb that "it is [his] sad duty" to research and record the life of the Baudelaire orphans - when Handler wrote this, was he already thinking of a reason Snicket would consider it a duty? It makes sense when you consider that they are the children of the woman he was/is obsessed with - and some fans have even suggested Lemony was the father of at least one of the children, in which case it makes even more sense Another confusing plot point: when was Sunny kidnapped? Klaus is speaking to Olaf, then as soon as he finishes he runs upstairs and finds Sunny gone. Before the conversation, Olaf has no reason to kidnap Sunny. After the conversation, Olaf has no time to get Fernald to kidnap Sunny. During the conversation, he has no way of contacting Fernald, surely - they seem to communicate via walkie-talkie but Klaus would have notice Olaf talking into a walkie-talkie. And even if he gave instructions to Fernald whilst Klaus was talking to him, how did Fernald get to Olaf's house so fast? Surely he would have had to be already inside the house to kidnap Sunny so quickly, and there's no sign that any of the theater troupe live with Olaf. I think i read in a interview that the beatrice twist was always planned and i feel likejustice strauss it shows in his writing. Paraphrasing the interview he said: "thats the wrong question the right one is whats beatrice's last name". or something along those lines I always took it that it was a major coincidence that sunny got grabbed at that exact moment. i take it olaf knew klaus got the book or was supicous so he told Fernald to grab sunny and it just happened to be right when Klaus told Olaf. same goes for the kids at justice strauss' house. I think he knows what the kids are doing and sent Fernald to grab them. and yes he probally did break into the house. The number of theater troup members is always a glaring problem but i take it they left after Olaf 's plan was revealed in TBB.
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Post by thathoboravioli on Nov 18, 2016 21:20:16 GMT -5
And on the subject of the Baudelaires' guardian, I hope the Netflix series does a better job of explaining why Bertrand and Beatrice wrote a will that ended up giving the children to Olaf. As members of V.F.D., they should have taken the possibility of someone murdering them more seriously, and even if Olaf "travels around the world with various theater companies" (, surely they could have made a better plan than "give the kids to the closest relative you can find". There are ways to solve this problem - their will could have been forged, for instance. Netflix gets a second chance to put this right - well, a third chance if you consider the movie just glossed over the issue. I did hear that in the original script of the movie, the will left by Beatrice and Bertrand said "DON'T leave Violet, Klaus, and Sunny to Count Olaf. Leave them with either Montgomery Montgomery or Josephine Anwhistle." Or somewhere along those lines.
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Post by A comet crashing into Earth on Nov 19, 2016 3:34:16 GMT -5
In the UK hardback edition of TBB, page 60 isn't numbered, although I can see no reason for it not to be. I've never noticed this before, but I presume it's a printing mistake. That's funny. My copy (printer's key: 19 20) does have the page number. My copy of TSS (also UK Hardcover, printer's key: 9 10 8), however, is missing the first whole-page illustration. There's just a blank page where it's supposed to be. Olaf's note for dinner with the theater troupe says "all ten of them" - specifically "them", not including himself. The children then buy 13 portions of food, for the 10 troupe members, Olaf, and themselves - someone's going to go hungry, but no-one seems to. And I don't remember this ever being brought up, but let's count the troupe members present that night: Olaf, Fernald, the bald man, two white-faced women, the androgynous assistant and 4/5 others. Presumably, they're all villains, because Snicket describes their rude behaviour with disdain, and they all seem to be socialising with each other. So who are these other people and why are they not part of the "theater troupe" in later books? I suppose they could've just been rude people without being downright villains - I expect anyone with whom Olaf would associate himself without specifically trying to gain something by it would have to be somewhat unpleasant. Also, in the company of rude people, it's appallingly easy to succumb to rudeness yourself - it's the Zelig effect.
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Post by Dante on Nov 19, 2016 5:51:57 GMT -5
Olaf's face looks really long on the front cover compared to NPH's Olaf, who seems to have a face really squished together. I guess I'll get used to it. Olaf's face is just massive on the Egmont cover of TBB, almost to the point of being purely stylistic. I notice that Helquist's covers for Egmont generally do emphasise individual faces, though this trend diminishes as time goes on. I don't think there were ever any serious alternative candidates for Beatrice's identity, assuming she had one at all, but if Handler intended it as a slow-burn reveal, it was very slow-burn indeed; I don't recall him explicitly developing Beatrice's connection to the overall plot until TMM, which was itself a prospective ending for the series is his initial four-book contract wasn't renewed. But then again, maybe the limitations of that contract were the very reason he didn't develop this plotline more until afterwards. Jerome isn't a relative, so he's irrelevant here. Doesn't solve all the other inconsistencies of chronology or guardian selection, but there's nothing wrong with this specific line of Mr. Poe's. Actually, come to think of it, in many ways he'd have been an even worse choice than Olaf; not only was he only a friend of the family rather than even a distant relative, but that friendship must have been suspended for at least a decade or more, because the Baudelaire children make no mention of ever having heard of him or seen him before - so they'd have made exactly the same complaints to Mr. Poe about their parents never having mentioned him. I think it's fair to say that there are some inconsistencies and questions about how the will is constructed and presented, and the alleged original script drafts suggest that the will Mr. Poe possesses may be a forgery; the new script fragments suggest that Mr. Poe may have misinterpreted the will. I don't really think it's too hard to imagine any number of explanations for why the will might have failed to account for Count Olaf, though; just off the top of my head, conceivably the Baudelaire parents didn't even know he was related to them, the connection being such a distant one, and what happened was that Mr. Poe did his job too well (he's mostly just oblivious rather than incompetent, and receives two promotions over the course of the series) and found an obscure relative who was geographically close. Here's another suggestion to take into consideration: Do Violet's inventions get less clever as the series goes on? The grappling hook is a combination of items, but in later books a lot of her inventions tend to be innovative uses of a single item. With two different characters using the title in two different contexts, it's hard to be certain that this is an actual inconsistency. I'm not going to touch on points that other people have already tackled, but it's suggested in the BBRE that Olaf and his troupe may have been spying on the children while they thought they were alone, in which case their visits to Justice Strauss would likely not have gone unnoticed. As for how Fernald got in, maybe Justice Strauss left her door unlocked? She seems like a trusting sort and she lives in a nice neighbourhood; she's even naive about Count Olaf, of all people. Olaf specifically obtains an official document from City Hall rather than a simple "explanatory note," so clearly there's more to it; I imagine Nuptial Law proceeds to go into more technical detail and Klaus just read out the summary. That's how I've always taken it. Mine's missing that page number too, but the series has had a number of printer's errors; there are also reports of various books with the wrong Ex Libris illustration - and just wait until we get to The End if you want to talk about some really shocking omissions in the Egmont editions. I get the impression from the early books that Handler hadn't initially decided that Snicket was on the run; there's no indication of this until later in the series, after V.F.D. is introduced, as I recall it. While at least one Kind Editor note will be seen to have an outright mistake, some I think are deliberately ambiguous, as here. Haven't you answered your own question here? The other five troupe members are the important-looking man with warts on his face, the three short men, and the short-haired woman; the only reason they can exist is to bulk up the number of troupe members to the required ten. Doesn't fix the fact that they (and the wart-faced man especially) were retconned out of existence, doesn't fix the numerical problems of the dinner scene, but it's almost certainly what was intended.
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