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Post by MisterM on Aug 8, 2018 17:05:46 GMT -5
Now, Josephine... Okay, so shes definitely off her rocker at the start. Her penchant for correcting grammar is fine, and doesn't really affect her care of the Baudelaire's as such... but the fears, yeah, those were pretty limiting. Also, she didn't seem that interested in the children. Her character goes downhill pretty fast when Captain Sham turns up, however. How do we reconcile Josephine Being unable to identify olaf? Is it just denial? Who knows!
Is she a Good Guardian, though. I would say Josephine is pretty much average. She isn't evil, but she's also pretty useless.
And, of course, did she really die at the end of TWW?
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Post by Dante on Aug 9, 2018 2:59:03 GMT -5
It's generally accepted that her willingness, at the end of the book, to surrender the Baudelaires to Olaf to protect herself is very much not her finest hour. She's not one of the outright evil guardians, as we see in the following books, but she is ruled by her fears and that compromises her morals. For her failure to recognise Olaf, I think we must accept that perhaps some characters like her haven't met him for a long enough time that all they see is somebody using the V.F.D. Disguise Kit - which is no bad thing. That also makes it easier for them to read the Baudelaires' qualms as misplaced rather than wholly mistaken. Denial isn't a bad explanation; Josephine badly wanted Captain Sham to be a person who would make her feel more safe, not less.
Is she still alive? The fact that the Queequeg's crew in TGG specifically mention patrolling Lake Lachrymose and having retrieved parts of her library from her fallen home without mentioning any sign that Josephine herself is alive makes it rather unlikely that she survived. I think it would be fine if you wanted to believe that, and I wouldn't have batted an eyelid if she had come back in TPP regardless, but I think TGG is otherwise definitive as a canonical position.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Aug 9, 2018 4:48:36 GMT -5
For her failure to recognise Olaf, I think we must accept that perhaps some characters like her haven't met him for a long enough time that all they see is somebody using the V.F.D. Disguise Kit - which is no bad thing. *eyes widening because I had never considered this could be the case and am therefore a certified idiot* Is she still alive? The fact that the Queequeg's crew in TGG specifically mention patrolling Lake Lachrymose and having retrieved parts of her library from her fallen home without mentioning any sign that Josephine herself is alive What sort of signs, however? Considering the voracity of the Lachrymose Leeches, the evidence would look the same way whether Josephine had perished or escaped: no body to be found. What do you expect they could have found as evidence that Josephine had survived, a bunch of angry, hungry leeches complaining about what quick swimmers some old women can be? |
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Post by Dante on Aug 9, 2018 9:06:20 GMT -5
What sort of signs, however? Considering the voracity of the Lachrymose Leeches, the evidence would look the same way whether Josephine had perished or escaped: no body to be found. What do you expect they could have found as evidence that Josephine had survived, a bunch of angry, hungry leeches complaining about what quick swimmers some old women can be? I was thinking more along the lines that they might have literally pulled her from the leeches themselves after she sank beneath the waves. I believe there has been past speculation to this effect. |
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Post by Foxy on Aug 9, 2018 18:40:44 GMT -5
I think you could make the case for Aunt Josephine being the worst guardian, including Count Olaf. You expect Count Olaf to be bad. Even when he is pretending to be nice to the children when he is trying to trick Violet into marrying him, the children still have no doubt he is evil. But they trusted Aunt Josephine to protect them from Count Olaf, and she sold them out! No one can do a perfect job of raising a child, but if you are going to volunteer to be someone's guardian, I feel it is implied you are willing to make sacrifices to protect them, not give them up to a villain when you are afraid. Josephine was a bad guardian.
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Post by Foxy on Aug 25, 2018 14:36:47 GMT -5
MisterM I was just wondering - are you going to post topics like this about Sir, Prufrock Prep, etc.? I want to make a case for Sir not being so bad...
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Post by MisterM on Aug 25, 2018 17:21:56 GMT -5
Yeah I will. I need to decide wether Sir counts as the guardian or Lucky Smells itself.
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Post by doetwin on Oct 10, 2018 20:31:37 GMT -5
Now, Josephine... Okay, so shes definitely off her rocker at the start. Her penchant for correcting grammar is fine, and doesn't really affect her care of the Baudelaire's as such... but the fears, yeah, those were pretty limiting. Also, she didn't seem that interested in the children. Her character goes downhill pretty fast when Captain Sham turns up, however. How do we reconcile Josephine Being unable to identify olaf? Is it just denial? Who knows! Is she a Good Guardian, though. I would say Josephine is pretty much average. She isn't evil, but she's also pretty useless. And, of course, did she really die at the end of TWW? As far as I'm concerned, she was not a good guardian. It's revealed in TVV that the Baudelaires' relatives had the option of not becoming their guardian, as this is what all of the Baudelaires' remaining relatives choose at the beginning of the book. That means that Josephine had a choice as well, and she chose to take them in. When you choose to become a parent, whether it's by birth or adoption, you have committed to accepting whatever challenges raising them might bring, as well as doing everything in your power to keep them safe, even if that means risking your own safety. If Josephine's sole concern was her own safety, then she shouldn't have agreed to adopt the Baudelaires. Another thing to keep in mind is that when Josephine was given the option of becoming the Baudelaires' new guardian, Monty had already been murdered, so it's not like she didn't have a head's up as to what she was signing up for. Of course, there is the possibility that Mr. Poe gave her the same false reassurance about Count Olaf that he constantly gave the Baudelaires, and told her that Olaf would never be able to find them, but that still doesn't excuse her selfish actions because of what I said at the end of the first paragraph. As per your last question, I definitely think she is dead. In TMM, Violet talked about building an inventing studio over Lake Lachrymose in memory of Josephine, and in TAA, Violet straight-up told Duncan and Isadora that Josephine was dead. The thing is, though, that her own death could have avoided had she not let her fear of realtors get the better of her. When Klaus told her that they might come to Curdled Cave, she was so terrified that she left the cave immediately and didn't consider that she had just eaten a banana and that it might be a good idea to wait a couple of hours before sailing across the lake. This carelessness not only sealed her fate, but almost sent the Baudelaires to their watery graves as well. MisterM I was just wondering - are you going to post topics like this about Sir, Prufrock Prep, etc.? I want to make a case for Sir not being so bad... I think we can agree that Josephine, Sir, Esme, and VFD all had the same incentive for adopting the Baudelaires, in that it was for their personal gain rather than out of any genuine concern for the children. For the latter three, it's pretty obvious. Sir wanted more free workers at his lumber-mill. Esme wanted the publicity of having orphans, as they were "in at the time, and also wanted some of their fortune. VFD wanted all their chores done for them. For Josephine, it's more complicated, but I think that we safely assume, based on her actions, that it wasn't out of the goodness of her heart. Josephine is described many times throughout TWW as an "old woman", which I think makes her motive for adopting the Baudelaires pretty obvious. She was expecting the Baudelaires to care for her when she got too old to care for herself. |
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