Great 667 Re-Read 2019 - The Slippery Slope

[veryferociousdrama]

Sorry guys, I've had a very busy week, I haven't been able to finish the book, and I'm staying with a relative this weekend where I don't have access to it. I'll have to post my notes next week.

[Foxy]

May 10, 2019 23:04:15 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

May 10, 2019 6:59:49 GMT -5 Foxy said:

Maybe it was an old article?

It still seems strange that information about storage in the headquarters of a secret organisation would be publicly revealed in a newspaper.

That's true, you wouldn't think there would be a big target audience for a subject like that.

'"I try to be as accommodating as possible."' (p186) Was Fernald a Snow Scout as a child?

If it use to be a more noble organization for young recruits, this is an entirely plausible idea.

although if you believe Beatrice survived the Baudelaire fire, you could argue he only started researching their lives in order for her to have an accurate account of what happened to the children while they were separated from each other.

I love that hypothesis.

'the afternoon slowly turned to evening' (p215) - it was morning when Sunny signalled using the VF Device! Has it really taken all day to climb up the waterfall?

I've never climber a waterfall using shoes with forks strapped to them, but I can't imagine it's an easy task.

Quigley seems sort of manipulative here, in the way he immediately is happy for Sunny to stay with the villains.

I agree. I think it's because it's not one of his siblings, and he really wants to defeat the bad guys. Since Sunny is so eager to stay behind, he is okay with it too.

May 11, 2019 0:54:32 GMT -5 veryferociousdrama said:

Sorry guys, I've had a very busy week, I haven't been able to finish the book, and I'm staying with a relative this weekend where I don't have access to it. I'll have to post my notes next week.

Hey, that's okay! Life happens!

[Carrie E. Abelabudite]

May 11, 2019 0:54:32 GMT -5 veryferociousdrama said:

Sorry guys, I've had a very busy week, I haven't been able to finish the book, and I'm staying with a relative this weekend where I don't have access to it. I'll have to post my notes next week.

No problem! I've been busy too, so I don't mind a slightly slower pace.

Chapter Eleven

I love the chapter illustration.

'Nearby were several half-burnt scraps of paper, stacked underneath a burnt teacup Klaus was using for a paperweight,' (p235) I'd never caught this mention of a teacup before. Clearly there's a VFD tea set at the headquarters, though it seems like the sugar bowl that was there was Esme's. 

The writing style of the explanation of Verbal Fridge Dialogue seems similar to that of Dr Orwell's and Monty's books.

Everything about Verbal Fridge Dialogue feels like a set-up. It seems like too much of a coincidence that the only book that didn't get burnt with he rest of the library was also the one that would help the children crack the code, and that the only scrap of poetry that survived was the exact one they needed - this is even lamp-shaded in the text. So, who is the JS for whom this message was intended? I don't think either Justice Strauss or Jerome Squalor fit the bill. I tend to agree with the Snicket Sleuth's 'JS' theory - not every aspect, but the general gist of it. The theory suggests that Jacques was originally meant to carry out a variety of tasks culminating in putting Olaf on trial, but after he died, Lemony, Kit and Dewey took over the project. There's some evidence that Lemony was at the HQ not long before the Baudelaires, so I think I'd say he was the one who left the message. Who was the intended recipient? Personally, I'd theorise that he knew that the Baudelaires (and maybe Quigley) were headed in the direction of the HQ, and left this message for them along with the book telling them how to crack the code. In this case, he might have written 'JS' in the jam so they wouldn't suspect how closely he was following them. If he had been in the area, he really should have helped them more directly, but that doesn't really seem to be the style of any of the VFD members.

'"What about the lemon juice?" Violet asked. "And the pickle?"' (p244) I believe Lemony mentions the pickle later, but I don't think the lemon juice is brought up again. However, I think it might be Lemony trying to let the Baudelaires know who sent the message. In one of the ATWQ books, doesn't he say he's sick of the nickname 'Lemonade'?It's possible VFD members sometimes call him this, and he is expecting the Baudelaires to be familiar with that.

'Violet and Klaus had never done anything as villainous as taking somebody prisoner,' (p248) I've already said this, but personally I think burning down Caligari Carnival is worse. Also, they didn't set the fire at Heimlich Hospital, but, through Violet's announcements, they might have caused some people who had already escaped to re-enter the building, possibly putting their lives in jeopardy.

'Her fingers bumped up against the large bread knife,' (p248) I love the way the existence of the knife is played up.

'"Do you think this is what our parents would do?"' (p250) Quite possibly, yes, but I like how the Baudelaire parents are still being used as a moral compass here. It makes it all the more shocking when we find out the truth.

'It might seem right to wear a navy blue suit, for instance, but when you arrive there could be several other people wearing the same thing, and you could end up being handcuffed due to a case of mistaken identity.' (p250-1) Did this happen to Lemony? It could be an explanation as to how he was so widely blamed for Olaf's crimes.

'Klaus nodded solemnly. "We'll fight fire," he said, "with fire."' (p252) This is genuinely a good example of fighting fire with fire, but we see how other characters take the idea to an extreme.

The third sleepless night in a row for the Baudelaires - and they haven't had a good night's sleep since before they arrived in VFD nine days ago.

It's interesting that Lemony is playing up the 'we can't know anything for sure' angle here, when earlier in the series, he seemed to be so confident in the unfortunate-ness of the tale he was telling. In particular I'm thinking of the 'I always know' passage from TMM. It's a thematic progression that works well, I think.

'the three volunteers could not help wondering if they were villains too,' (p255) Is this the first time 'volunteer' and 'villains' have been contrasted with each other in this way? It seems like such a staple of the series, yet I don't think it has come up before, even if the terms 'volunteer' and 'villain' have been used. 

Chapter Twelve

Like the crowd scene in THH, Esme's clothes in the chapter illustration look like they're from the Elizabethan times - the ruff in particular. 

'"Just think, by the end of the day I'll have more new members of my troupe than ever before!"' (p264) So, the recruited Snow Scouts were always meant to work for Olaf specifically? That seems sort of odd - why would the Sinister Duo not want them to be their henchpeople? I guess they want everyone to work together to burn down Hotel Denouement, but then this doesn't happen. Maybe they changed their plans when the date of the trial got moved.

I love the idea of Esme being called 'your Esméship'.

Sunny going down to 'get the cigarette' would actually probably be the best possible outcome. Violet, Klaus and Quigley would have been able to see it was her in time to stop her from falling into the pit, and then the five of them would have been able to escape together.

'"I just love springing traps on people."' Olaf says this on p266, yet neither he nor Esme consider that the smoke at the bottom of the waterfall might be one.

If the waterfall were almost vertical, how could you toboggan down it?

'"'The world is quiet here,'" Quigley read. "What do you think it means?"' (p269) Firstly, I think this is the first time the Baudelaires have come across this expression (except Violet, who thinks she has heard it before). Secondly, Quigley seemed to know the 'I didn't realise this was a sad occasion' code earlier, so it's odd he wouldn't be familiar with 'the world is quiet here' as the motto for VFD. Maybe he knew that 'I didn't realise this was a sad occasion' was a VFD phrase, but didn't know what it was used for, or its correct response.

'"The destruction of V.F.D. headquarters has caused even more damage than I thought."' (p271) But we know from Lemony's comment earlier that animals are able to rebuild their habitats to a degree. There's a faint sense of hope in that.

Were Beatrice and Bertrand going to a funeral when they sang 'the world is quiet here' to Violet? Also, why were they singing The Little Snicket Lad to her? Considering their for the most part lack of desire to tell their children about VFD, this is striking.

The Nietzsche quote seems important in representing the overall moral message of the series.

I'd forgotten Esme was wearing orange lipstick to go with her fire dress.

How deep could the pit be, if Violet, Klaus and Quigley dug the whole thing in one night with just their hands?

'"Many years ago, I was supposed to waste my entire summer reading Anna Karenina,"' (p278) Presumably to be able to get into the headquarters. Also, Esme's speech here really drives home the contrast between the two sides of VFD and their attitudes toward reading/literature. As we'll see, the 'noble' side sometimes descends into elitism, and the 'wicked' side fiercely opposes this, but to the point it becomes destructive. One possible cause for the schism.

What secret code could be contained in "The Itsy Bitsy Spider"?

'"Mush!" Esmé called from the toboggan.' (p282) My cousin used to make me pull her bike while she shouted 'Mush!' at me, so I always feel for the Baudelaires in this scene. 

I love the description of the VFD HQ here.

'the brave volunteer who tossed the sugar bowl out the kitchen window so it would not be destroyed in the blaze,' (p284) Who would this have been? I used to think it was Lemony, but I don't think he'd refer to himself as a 'brave' volunteer, and it seems like he does meet the Baudelaires in TPP.

'The Baudelaires would never do any of these things, any more than I will [...] retrieve my pickle from the refrigerator in which I left it, and return it to its rightful place in an important coded sandwich.' (p284) So, Lemony was definitely at the headquarters, and probably not long before the Baudelaires were. This makes it more likely that he was the one who left the message, I think.

'"You will give us Sunny," [Violet] said, "because we know where the sugar bowl is."' (p290) Here, it seems like Violet has cracked the secret of the sugar bowl - it's important not so much because of what's in it, but because it can be used as leverage. We'll see this continue to play out as the series goes on.

[Dante]

May 11, 2019 20:25:49 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

Everything about Verbal Fridge Dialogue feels like a set-up. It seems like too much of a coincidence that the only book that didn't get burnt with he rest of the library was also the one that would help the children crack the code, and that the only scrap of poetry that survived was the exact one they needed - this is even lamp-shaded in the text. So, who is the JS for whom this message was intended? I don't think either Justice Strauss or Jerome Squalor fit the bill. I tend to agree with the Snicket Sleuth's 'JS' theory - not every aspect, but the general gist of it. The theory suggests that Jacques was originally meant to carry out a variety of tasks culminating in putting Olaf on trial, but after he died, Lemony, Kit and Dewey took over the project. There's some evidence that Lemony was at the HQ not long before the Baudelaires, so I think I'd say he was the one who left the message. Who was the intended recipient? Personally, I'd theorise that he knew that the Baudelaires (and maybe Quigley) were headed in the direction of the HQ, and left this message for them along with the book telling them how to crack the code. In this case, he might have written 'JS' in the jam so they wouldn't suspect how closely he was following them. If he had been in the area, he really should have helped them more directly, but that doesn't really seem to be the style of any of the VFD members.

'"What about the lemon juice?" Violet asked. "And the pickle?"' (p244) I believe Lemony mentions the pickle later, but I don't think the lemon juice is brought up again. However, I think it might be Lemony trying to let the Baudelaires know who sent the message. In one of the ATWQ books, doesn't he say he's sick of the nickname 'Lemonade'?It's possible VFD members sometimes call him this, and he is expecting the Baudelaires to be familiar with that.

'the brave volunteer who tossed the sugar bowl out the kitchen window so it would not be destroyed in the blaze,' (p284) Who would this have been? I used to think it was Lemony, but I don't think he'd refer to himself as a 'brave' volunteer, and it seems like he does meet the Baudelaires in TPP.

'The Baudelaires would never do any of these things, any more than I will [...] retrieve my pickle from the refrigerator in which I left it, and return it to its rightful place in an important coded sandwich.' (p284) So, Lemony was definitely at the headquarters, and probably not long before the Baudelaires were. This makes it more likely that he was the one who left the message, I think.

You've already covered why you think Lemony isn't the person who threw the sugar bowl from the window; if he's also the person who left the Verbal Fridge Dialogue, he would almost have to be the bowl-thrower, though, and for that reason, I believe he did neither.

The allusion to "the blaze" makes it seem fairly reasonable that the sinister duo's attack was imminent when the sugar bowl was evacuated, and while it's clear that the volunteers at the headquarters were forewarned, the act of throwing the sugar bowl from the window seems like the desperate act of somebody who wasn't sure if they had time to escape undetected; additionally, the days indicated in the Verbal Fridge Dialogue mean it must have been left either on the day the Baudelaires arrived or the day before, which is a similarly narrow window of time. I'm not willing to posit two separate people individuals hanging around the headquarters at this critical period when the sinister duo didn't notice anyone at all. So I favour both the bowl-thrower and the fridge-arranger as being the same person; and therefore not Lemony.

It's not clear how far in advance of the fire Lemony might have left that pickle there. The argument in favour of Lemony leaving the message would be that the lemonade signifies his name as the sender in the same way that the darkest of the jams of three indicates the recipient; but wherefore then the pickle? Was the recipient meant also to take the pickle and hand it to Lemony on meeting him? My reading has tended to be that the lemonade and pickle are part of a second, separate message; the lemonade indicating the addressee, and the pickle waiting for him. This also fits the picture of Lemony as always being a few steps behind the Baudelaires, rather than ahead of them; this is effectively verified by page 102, in which Lemony describes himself as presently being on the way to the Valley of Four Drafts, rather than having already been there.

TPP leaves enough clues to make it clear that Lemony (appearing as the Chapter Ten taxi driver) is the one who ends up with the sugar bowl after all is said and done; additionally, part of the evidence for this involves his very possession of what is almost certainly the coded sandwich he wanted that pickle for, as shown on page 251:

I do know who the man was, and I do know where he went afterward, and I do know the name of the woman who was hiding in the trunk, and the type of musical instrument that was laid carefully in the back seat, and the ingredients of the sandwich tucked into the glove compartment, and even the small item that sat on the passenger seat, still damp from its hiding place[...]

Respectively: Lemony; destination unknown; the person who retrieved the sugar bowl from the pond (probably the woman in a diving suit from p. 153, who is perhaps also the TGG p. 127 "swimming woman" (who isn't actually said to be swimming)); an accordion, an instrument Daniel Handler plays; the coded sandwich mentioned in TSS; the sugar bowl.

Lemony having been both the person who both threw the sugar bowl from the headquarters window, and the person who ultimately came into possession of it, seems to me to be a fairly pointless diversion; not least as there's another unseen step between it being carried towards the ocean and it being delivered by crow to the Hotel Denouement anyway. That's two possible steps at which we might ask why it didn't end up with Lemony already. The fact that he nabbed off with it before the trial indicates that either the sugar bowl was never truly meant to be involved in the trial - which seems to be the object of Dewey's plan - or that Lemony intended to withhold it as evidence - in which case why didn't he take it with him from the headquarters? TSS pp. 101-102 indicate that Lemony wishes to get his hands on the sugar bowl personally; this is achieved in TPP; and lines up with him being able to move about openly and take an office under his own name by the time of TBL. Lemony got the sugar bowl, used it to clear his name, and is no longer a fugitive from justice.

[Carrie E. Abelabudite]

Chapter Thirteen

The argument between Olaf and Esme gives us a good sense of the difference in their priorities. That Esme wants the sugar bowl more than Olaf is consistent with what happens later, but at other points in this chapter Olaf also seems very anxious to get it. He still wants it in the later books, but it doesn't seem like he cares about getting it as much as he does here.

It's also interesting that the Sinister Duo care a lot less about the sugar bowl than either Olaf or Esme (although they still wanted it enough to search the wreckage of the headquarters for it), and instead seem much more focused on their 'recruitment scheme'.

'The two white-faced women sighed, but hurried over to the casserole dish and lifted it together, as if they were cooks removing something from the oven' (p293) - Which, of course, they were in TAA. This book has a lot of references to that one that I hadn't noticed before.

And the Baudelaires think the white is similar to the one Olaf used for his Coach Genghis disguise! Is a whistle mentioned in the TUA disguise kit? I now can't remember.

'Some of [the eagles] looked very old, old enough to have been in the skies when the Baudelaire parents were children themselves.' (p294) How long do eagles live?

Olaf says he has all the VFD reptiles except one, so I guess his attempt to snatch the rest of them was apparently successful despite his incompetent cow-disguised associate.

'"Don't interrupt," the sinister woman interrupted.' (p295) Ha! I'm actually getting an S. Theodora Markson vibe from this line, though I don't think she can be the woman with hair but no beard. Maybe Olaf could have been this woman's apprentice?

'"You may have the carrier crows,"' (p295) So, the crows have been trained by VFD.

'"They'll either be recruited, or they'll be our prisoners. But one thing is for certain - we'll burn down every single one of their parents' homes."' (p297) A very sinister method, but maybe not unprecedented.

'"Of course," [Olaf] said quickly, "the main reason we're doing all this is to get our hands on all those fortunes."' (p297) A very effective moment of putting Olaf's villainy into perspective.

'"Once you tell us where the sugar bowl is,' said the man with a beard but no hair, "you can leave, volunteers, and take your baby friend with you. But wouldn't you rather join us?"' (p297-8) He does seem to have some sense of honour, and even a grudging respect for the volunteers.

'"Here come my new recruits!"' (p298) Are they Olaf's recruits, or the Sinister Duo's? This is never made entirely clear.

'The Baudelaires were unlikely to convince anyone they were telling the truth while their faces were unnecessarily covered.' (p301) I think that people would be much less likely to believe them when they're actually showing their faces.

'"And you're one of those twins!" Olaf said to Quigley. "You died a long time ago!"' As jeanlucio10 pointed out in another thread, Quigley actually can't be the survivor mentioned in the Snicket File, since otherwise Olaf would know he wasn't dead.

'"None of you are members of V.F.D. You're just a bunch of orphan brats."' (p303) That depends on your definition of 'members of VFD'. Considering that they are actively working to help the organisation, I would say they count as volunteers by now. But clearly Olaf doesn't see it that way - maybe this could have been a contentious issue in the schism.

'"For a while, it was fun to fight fire with fire, but we've seen enough flames and smoke to last our whole lives."
     "We don't think it was a coincidence that our home burned to the ground," said the first woman. "We lost a sibling in that fire, Olaf."' (p304) Now we see that Olaf also has used a similar 'recruitment scheme' to the Sinister Duo. Maybe he lied to the women about who set the fire and invited them to join his troupe as a way to avenge their sibling? As these two have found out, fighting fire with fire is a slippery slope.

Hugo's mention of dill is interesting, though I'm not sure what to make of it.

Fernald calls Bruce 'Uncle Bruce'? He must have been a Snow Scout when he was younger, although it doesn't seem like Bruce recognises him.

Lemony's discussion of what people might adopt as their pledge feels important.

How did Carmelita escape recruitment? This is never clarified.

"'A long time ago, I tricked you out of a reptile collection that I needed for my own use."' (p313) This doesn't exactly fit what we've heard so far. In TRR, it seemed like Bruce was working for the Herpetological Society, and Olaf's henchman was wandering the countryside looking for the reptiles in TUA, which doesn't strike me as something he'd do if Olaf had tricked Bruce into handing them over. I guess he eventually caught up with Bruce and managed to get them? It's a little confusing, though, not least because that's not Olaf ticking Bruce out of the reptile collection even if it is someone working on Olaf's orders.

'"But Violet has the longest hair," Carmelita volunteered,' (p315) Interesting word choice. Not sure if it means anything, though.

'"They'll burn your parents' house down."' (p316) I think that's actually the Sinister Duo, though Olaf seems to be in on the plan.

'"What are you going to believe, Carmelita?" Count Olaf asked. "A silly book, or something an adult tells you?"' (p317) I like how this series points out that adults can't always be trusted. We've seen this before, but this is really a blatant example of it, and one that is sure to resonate with any child.

'"You'll be like the daughter we never had," Esmé said, stroking [Carmelita's] tiara.
     "Or something," added Olaf, who looked like he would prefer having another employee rather than a daughter.' (p317) Here we can see the first cracks in Esme and Olaf's relationship.

Esme's pledge is great. I wonder if shows a Snow Scout as a child, too? The Netflix show certainly implies that (I'm pretty sure she talks about having been False Sprinng Queen in the THH episodes).

Sunny referencing a famous MacGuffin by saying 'Rosebud' is a good reminder of the sugar bowl's ultimate role in the narrative.

'"Do you think [Bruce is] really a member of V.F.D.?"' (p323) Why would Quigley or anyone else think this? There is absolutely no evidence to suggest it might be true.

I love how Violet ends up using the bread knife, which we have been reminded of throughout the book, for a non-violent purpose.

'"We can't even be certain what V.F.D. stands for, or if our parents are truly dead."' (p332) Yes, you can. Although I do really like the way each answer we get in this book leads to more questions, it's sort of annoying that Handler continues to tease these two things as mysteries, despite the fact that for all intents and purposes they have been solved. He doesn't even need to do this, considering there are still quite a few other unanswered questions he could have brought up here.

The theme of the 'unknown' is continued with the passage on the white-faced women.

'And I have not tracked down the refrigerator in which the Baudelaires found the Verbal Fridge Dialogue,' (p334) There's a suggestion in the Rare Edition notes that the box the fridge came in was at Olaf's house. Considering this came out at the same time as those, it makes sense Handler would make a connection here.

If Lemony were the one who left the code for the Baudelaires to find, he would know exactly what was meant by the message (which presumably refers to the sugar bowl being sent to the Gorgonian Grotto, before eventually ending up at Hotel Denouement). It's odd, then, that he would act like he doesn't understand the poem here, but his guesses as to what the message might mean seem pretty accurate.

Also, I can't believe I wrote so many notes for this chapter. I always forget how much happens in the last third or so of this book.

To My Kind Editor

I can barely read anything in this letter.

'I'm afraid the ink I am using has become diluted,' Reminds me of the ink from the octopi in Stain'd-by-the-Sea, though IIRC that just became faded rather than diluted specifically.

[Foxy]

May 11, 2019 20:25:49 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

'"What about the lemon juice?" Violet asked. "And the pickle?"' (p244) I believe Lemony mentions the pickle later, but I don't think the lemon juice is brought up again. However, I think it might be Lemony trying to let the Baudelaires know who sent the message. In one of the ATWQ books, doesn't he say he's sick of the nickname 'Lemonade'?It's possible VFD members sometimes call him this, and he is expecting the Baudelaires to be familiar with that.

I don't understand why anyone would have lemon juice instead of lemons, and squeeze their own lemon juice fresh.

'Her fingers bumped up against the large bread knife,' (p248) I love the way the existence of the knife is played up.

The knife keeps getting brought up over the course of the book, and I love how it is finally utilized.

'It might seem right to wear a navy blue suit, for instance, but when you arrive there could be several other people wearing the same thing, and you could end up being handcuffed due to a case of mistaken identity.' (p250-1) Did this happen to Lemony? It could be an explanation as to how he was so widely blamed for Olaf's crimes.

I find it hard to believe Count Olaf would ever wear clean clothes or something as nice as a navy blue suit, but who knows?

'"Just think, by the end of the day I'll have more new members of my troupe than ever before!"' (p264) So, the recruited Snow Scouts were always meant to work for Olaf specifically? That seems sort of odd - why would the Sinister Duo not want them to be their henchpeople? I guess they want everyone to work together to burn down Hotel Denouement, but then this doesn't happen. Maybe they changed their plans when the date of the trial got moved.

What ever ends up ultimately happening to the snow scouts after TGG?

If the waterfall were almost vertical, how could you toboggan down it?

Snicket physics do not equal real life physics, I think.

Were Beatrice and Bertrand going to a funeral when they sang 'the world is quiet here' to Violet? Also, why were they singing The Little Snicket Lad to her? Considering their for the most part lack of desire to tell their children about VFD, this is striking.

And why would Bertrand be okay with singing a song about Beatrice's former love interest?

What secret code could be contained in "The Itsy Bitsy Spider"?

Maybe it's code for if it's good fire starting weather or not?

May 12, 2019 5:29:06 GMT -5 Dante said:

Lemony having been both the person who both threw the sugar bowl from the headquarters window, and the person who ultimately came into possession of it, seems to me to be a fairly pointless diversion; not least as there's another unseen step between it being carried towards the ocean and it being delivered by crow to the Hotel Denouement anyway. That's two possible steps at which we might ask why it didn't end up with Lemony already. The fact that he nabbed off with it before the trial indicates that either the sugar bowl was never truly meant to be involved in the trial - which seems to be the object of Dewey's plan - or that Lemony intended to withhold it as evidence - in which case why didn't he take it with him from the headquarters? TSS pp. 101-102 indicate that Lemony wishes to get his hands on the sugar bowl personally; this is achieved in TPP; and lines up with him being able to move about openly and take an office under his own name by the time of TBL. Lemony got the sugar bowl, used it to clear his name, and is no longer a fugitive from justice.

Maybe he was the one who threw the sugar bowl out the window because if the Sinister Duo found him with the sugar bowl, there would be big trouble, but if he was just found without it, that would be less bad?

May 12, 2019 10:57:21 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

The argument between Olaf and Esme gives us a good sense of the difference in their priorities. That Esme wants the sugar bowl more than Olaf is consistent with what happens later, but at other points in this chapter Olaf also seems very anxious to get it. He still wants it in the later books, but it doesn't seem like he cares about getting it as much as he does here.

I like when Olaf and Esme fight. I don't know why; usually fighting makes me very uncomfortable.

'Some of [the eagles] looked very old, old enough to have been in the skies when the Baudelaire parents were children themselves.' (p294) How long do eagles live?

Bald eagles can live about twenty years, and crowned eagles about fourteen years. The oldest eagle was thirty-eight years old.

Olaf says he has all the VFD reptiles except one, so I guess his attempt to snatch the rest of them was apparently successful despite his incompetent cow-disguised associate.

Was he the one in the cow disguise? I thought that was an associate writing to Olaf.

'"Don't interrupt," the sinister woman interrupted.' (p295) Ha! I'm actually getting an S. Theodora Markson vibe from this line, though I don't think she can be the woman with hair but no beard. Maybe Olaf could have been this woman's apprentice?

Hey, that's a good theory! But Beatrice and Olaf worked together, so were they both her apprentices?

'The Baudelaires were unlikely to convince anyone they were telling the truth while their faces were unnecessarily covered.' (p301) I think that people would be much less likely to believe them when they're actually showing their faces.

I think you're right.

Fernald calls Bruce 'Uncle Bruce'? He must have been a Snow Scout when he was younger, although it doesn't seem like Bruce recognises him.

I love that he calls him Uncle Bruce. Maybe it is because Uncle Bruce was a Snow Scout leader and Fernald was in his troupe, but I like the idea that Fernald just decided to call him Unlce out of the blue.

How did Carmelita escape recruitment? This is never clarified.

She wasn't standing on the net when it got lifted up.

'"But Violet has the longest hair," Carmelita volunteered,' (p315) Interesting word choice. Not sure if it means anything, though.

I think Carmelita is probably jealous of Violet, so she wants to pull her hair?

'And I have not tracked down the refrigerator in which the Baudelaires found the Verbal Fridge Dialogue,' (p334) There's a suggestion in the Rare Edition notes that the box the fridge came in was at Olaf's house. Considering this came out at the same time as those, it makes sense Handler would make a connection here.

What?! I totally missed that.

[Dante]

May 12, 2019 10:57:21 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

And the Baudelaires think the white is similar to the one Olaf used for his Coach Genghis disguise! Is a whistle mentioned in the TUA disguise kit? I now can't remember.

The disguise kit lists no whistles.

'Some of [the eagles] looked very old, old enough to have been in the skies when the Baudelaire parents were children themselves.' (p294) How long do eagles live?

Depends on the species of eagle, but a quick search around suggests that they can live twenty to thirty years in the wild; though birds will live longer in captivity, where they can be cared for in their old age. This seems unlikely to be the case for any eagles under the care of the sinister duo.

Olaf says he has all the VFD reptiles except one, so I guess his attempt to snatch the rest of them was apparently successful despite his incompetent cow-disguised associate.

In most series, this would flag up the reptiles being important again later; though here all it signifies is that one of the reptiles, the Incredibly Deadly Viper, is still a factor.

'"And you're one of those twins!" Olaf said to Quigley. "You died a long time ago!"' As jeanlucio10 pointed out in another thread, Quigley actually can't be the survivor mentioned in the Snicket File, since otherwise Olaf would know he wasn't dead.

I disagree with many of Jean Lucio's theories, but I have only respect for him for catching this subtlety. The question is - did Handler notice?

'"For a while, it was fun to fight fire with fire, but we've seen enough flames and smoke to last our whole lives."
     "We don't think it was a coincidence that our home burned to the ground," said the first woman. "We lost a sibling in that fire, Olaf."' (p304) Now we see that Olaf also has used a similar 'recruitment scheme' to the Sinister Duo. Maybe he lied to the women about who set the fire and invited them to join his troupe as a way to avenge their sibling? As these two have found out, fighting fire with fire is a slippery slope.

My interpretation of both Olaf and the sinister duo's aims of arson against the homes of their "recruits" is to ensure they have nowhere to go back to; no other choice.

How did Carmelita escape recruitment? This is never clarified.

The positions of the characters in this sequence are somewhat unclear. Carmelita has to elbow her way past the Baudelaires to get to the very edge of Mount Fraught and stick the Springpole in the top of the frozen waterfall; the enormous net on the ground presumably does not extend as far as this edge, as the Baudelaires would never risk standing on it. All well and good. But when Bruce leads the Snow Scouts out onto the net, it's specifically to dance around the Springpole; how can they do that if it's planted right at the edge of the mountain - or how could Carmelita have impaled the Springpole right through the net without it interfering with the net being lifted? Did the Snow Scouts simply not get across the net by the time they'd finished their pledge - and if so, just how slowly were they walking while reciting their long, long pledge? Handler's sense of space and physical orientation is frequently rather confused in his narrative; the structure of the Carmelita next volume won't make sense either.

"'A long time ago, I tricked you out of a reptile collection that I needed for my own use."' (p313) This doesn't exactly fit what we've heard so far. In TRR, it seemed like Bruce was working for the Herpetological Society, and Olaf's henchman was wandering the countryside looking for the reptiles in TUA, which doesn't strike me as something he'd do if Olaf had tricked Bruce into handing them over. I guess he eventually caught up with Bruce and managed to get them? It's a little confusing, though, not least because that's not Olaf ticking Bruce out of the reptile collection even if it is someone working on Olaf's orders.

Perhaps Olaf tricked Bruce into accidentally releasing the reptiles somehow.

'I'm afraid the ink I am using has become diluted,' Reminds me of the ink from the octopi in Stain'd-by-the-Sea, though IIRC that just became faded rather than diluted specifically.

The Kind Editor letters becoming gradually more damaged was something I really enjoyed, and we here meet the point at which they stop openly revealing the title of the next book at all. Granted, it was pretty obvious what the title was going to be in this case, but it didn't stop people from making all kinds of guesses. The Grim Graveyard, The Grim Gameroom... TGG itself pokes fun at this.

[Carrie E. Abelabudite]

May 12, 2019 15:06:20 GMT -5 Foxy said:

What ever ends up ultimately happening to the snow scouts after TGG?

It's possible that some of them are at Hotel Denouement in TPP.

Maybe it's code for if it's good fire starting weather or not?

Good suggestion.

Was he the one in the cow disguise? I thought that was an associate writing to Olaf.

Right, it was the associate, but I'm surprised he was able to capture the reptile collection, given how incompetent he showed himself to be in that letter.

She wasn't standing on the net when it got lifted up.

I still don't understand why the Sinister Duo didn't make Carmelita stand on the net. As Dante notes in his post, the whole layout of that scene is confusing.

I think Carmelita is probably jealous of Violet, so she wants to pull her hair?

Oh, I just thought it was interesting that she is described as having 'volunteered' her opinion. Sorry, should have made that clearer.

What?! I totally missed that.

Looking back at the RE notes, it's not that obvious, but Lemony says that he has not been able to find the refrigerator, which is also a point he brings up at the end of TSS. I don't know if Handler intended for there to be a connection, but considering the notes were published at the same time as the book, it seems likely.

May 13, 2019 4:52:57 GMT -5 Dante said:

My interpretation of both Olaf and the sinister duo's aims of arson against the homes of their "recruits" is to ensure they have nowhere to go back to; no other choice.

Yes, that also seems like an important part of the recruitment process.

Perhaps Olaf tricked Bruce into accidentally releasing the reptiles somehow.

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Hermes]

As I have said before, Olaf's failure to realise that Q was alive is only evidence that he was not the survivor mentioned in the Snicket File if we suppose that the file identifies the survivor, and it's not at all clear that it does. Indeed, it's not impossible that we have the evidence mentioned in the file - the transcript of Zombies in the Snow - and it doesn't say who the survivor is.

Now that said, it does seem unlikely in that case that the survivor is Quigley, since his story does not at all fit what we learn from Dr Sebald, and no suggestion is made that he is lying (though I believe at one time many fans thought he was). It's quite likely that DH originally intended it to be Quigley, given that Sebald's files include a picture of three children, two of whom were sent to Prufrock Prep: but the story as a whole doen't support that. I therefore go along with the theory, which I think Dante proposed, that the survivor is the brother of the two orphans recruited by Kit.