Great 667 Re-Read 2019 - The Grim Grotto

[veryferociousdrama]

The beginning of the end...

[Foxy]

Personal Notes:

What realtors attacked the Queequeg? (2)

Royal Gardens Fire (5) the Royal Gardens were mentioned in TBB

There is so much interesting about the grotto, but the kids are in the dark and can’t see any of it. They could have drained the grotto if they could have seen the mechanical device. (6)

Fiona says they have to go out another way, and then she insists they have to go back the way they came. (7)

The sugar bowl was taken away quite some time ago. (7)

Olaf knew Fiona when she was a baby. (9)

Esmé thinks Fiona is Sunny… (9)

“You’re a marshmallow, Carmelita.” (9)

How is a crouton supposed to save Kit? Is it a horseradish crouton? (10)

Are there only eight children aboard the Carmelita? Or does the submarine have more than eight arms? (11)

Esmé claims she was close friends with Fiona’s mother at school. (13)

It’s hard to imagine Count Olaf humming. (13)

---------------------------------------------------------------------

THE GRIM GROTTO



CHARACTERS:

Violet Baudelaire (1): turned fifteen

Klaus Baudelaire (1)

Sunny Baudelaire (1)

Quigley Quagmire (m) (1)

Captain Widdershins (2): showed an article from the Daily Punctilio to many people, including Beatrice, insisting it was true (13)

Josephine (m) (2)

Fiona (2)

Herman Melville (m) (2)

Phil (2)

Fiona’s mother (m) (2): supposedly died in a manatee accident – did not die in a manatee accident (13)

Jacques (2)

Jacques’ brother (2)

a dreadful woman who turned out to be a spy (2)

Madame Lulu (m) (3)

Gregor Anwhistle (4)

Madame diLustro (5): “I believe I’ve discovered your true identity.”

the woman Captain Widdershins went to school with who was like a Gorgon (5)

P.G. Wodehouse (m) (5)

Carl Van Vechten (m) (5)

Comyns (m) (5)

Cleary (m) (5)

Archy (m) (5)

Mehitabel (m) (5)

woman making her way to the Queequeg (6)

Edgar Guest (m) (7)

Duchess R (m) (7)

Kit Snicket (7)

the man with the beard but no hair (m) (9)

the woman with the hair but no beard (m) (9): Olaf mentions they are at the Hotel D

Hook-handed man/Fernald (9)

Snow scouts/other children (9): “Have mercy on us!”

Esmé Squalor (9)

Carmelita Spats (9)

Mr. Poe (12)



VIOLET’S INVENTION:

attempting to fix the telegram machine



KLAUS’S RESEARCH:

finding the Gorgonian Grotto



SUNNY’S BITING/COOKING:

Chowder (5); birthday cake (11), amuse bouche (12), chewing gum (13)



THE LIBRARY:

Fiona’s Mycological library (1)



V.F.D.:

Volunteer Factual Dispatch (2)

Voluntary Fish Domestication (5)

Visitable Fungal Ditches (5)

Vertical Flame Diversions (6)

Versed Furtive Disclosure (7)

Verse Fluctuation Declaration (7)

Volatile Fungal Deportation (7)

Verifying Fernald’s Defection (10)

Violet’s Fifteenth Date (11)



SNICKET SECRETS:

He had a shoe salesperson force ugly shoes on his feet when he really wanted a bright red pair of shoes with buckles. (1) The shoe store later gets alluded to as “fiercely guarded.”

He posed as a pirate pretending to be amazed. (3)

He is going to a room full of sand to look for a test tube. (3) Is he going to the Gorgonian Grotto?

Most of the dinner parties he attends end in gunfire or tapioca. (5)

He discovered a hiding place in a sideboard. (5)

He owned marmosets. (5)

He writes himself citations of bravery to cheer himself up. (6)

He was picking through a salad trying to find a small, herbed piece of toast to save Kit. (10)



REFERENCES (real and made up):

The Daily Punctilio (3)

Mushroom Minutiae (5)

Row, row, row your boat (7)

My Last Duchess by Robert Browning (7)

The Walrus and the Carpenter by Lewis Carroll (12)

The Wasteland by T.S. Eliot (12)

books on child rearing (12)

books on proper and improper diets (12)

books on the water cycle (12)

poetry by Elizabeth Bishop, Charles Simic, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Franz Wright, and Daphne Gottlieb (12)



SNICKETISMS:

the one about the water cycle (1), (6), (13)

the one about being passive (1)

the one about having a personal philosophy (2)

the one about “fits like a glove” (3)

the one about citations of bravery (6)

the one about half the battle (6)

the one about the word “lousy” (7)

the one about things which are difficult to see (8)

the one about considering a life of villainy (9)

the one about the way sadness works (10)

the one about having a dreadful singing voice (11)

the one about reading poetry giving you a feeling of power (12)



BAUDELAIRE FAMILY HISTORY:

The Baudelaire’s mother used to give them each a Hobson’s choice. Violet could either clean her room, or her mother would sing “Row, Row, Row Your Boat” over and over. Klaus could either do the dishes, or she would read Edgar Guest to him. Sunny had to choose between a bath or a pink dress. (7)

One time the children left the library window open, and an atlas was ruined. Their parents were very upset. (7)

The parents hid all the books on the shelf where Klaus took the atlas from to another location. (12)



SNICKET DICTIONARY:

Acted contrary to her personal philosophy: hesitated for a moment, and faced the middle Baudelaire (13)

Affinity for arson: enthusiasm for burning down buildings, no matter how many people were inside (9)

Agree to disagree: you’re probably right, but I’m too embarrassed to admit it (10)

Barracks: a type of bedroom that is usually uncomfortable (5)

Belting out: singing in a particularly loud and particularly irritating voice (11)

Brought Sunny up to speed: told their sister what had happened while she was suffering inside the diving helmet (12)

Byline: name of the person who wrote the article (10)

Byzantine in their design: so complicated that perhaps even Violet Baudelaire would have trouble working them. (3)

Cartographer: someone who is very good with maps, and of whom Violet Baudelaire was particularly fond (1)

Conversational opener: an interesting sentence to say out loud in order to get people talking (5)

Downcast: looking sadly at the floor (13)

Enormous presence: large physical size, combined with a vibrant personality and loud voice (8)

Excellent villain: someone particularly skilled at villainy (9)

Fits like a glove: something is very suitable (3)

Flew off the handle: became extremely angry (7)

Fool’s errand: Errand performed by a fool (7)

For naught: for nothing (3)

Fruits of their labor: the results of the terrible thing they did, even though they did not mean to do it at all (1)

Furtive journey: sneaking (9)

Had no prior experience: who had probably been kidnapped by Count Olaf and his associates on another occasion (9)

Harrowing journey: frantic and extremely distressing (5)

Hemming and hawing: muttering, and clearing of one’s throat, used to avoid making a quick decision (10)

Her voice faltered a bit: sounded as if she weren’t so sure (9)

Impassioned Oratory: emotional speech that the Baudelaires found utterly convincing, even if they did not quite agree with every word (5)

Implement an alternative strategy: would terrorize the Baudelaires in another way (7)

In the final analysis: after much thought, and some debate with my colleagues (13)

Indispensable item: the sugar bowl, although the children did not know why it was so important (5)

Inscrutable: either pleasant or nasty, but it was hard to tell (10)

Lay their cards on the table: receal themselves honestly to Olaf’s wicked henchman (10)

Minutiae: obscure facts (5)

Naming her salvation: something that would save her life or something that would rescue her from the Medusoid Mycelium or an item the eldest Baudelaire sill had in the waterproof pocket of her uniform, sealed in a tin Sunny had found in an underwater cavern (11)

Nodded off: fell asleep without considering even one of the books he had recently read (5)

Of all stripes: Good and bad (7)

Of their own volition: by choice (8)

Only by reputation: I don’t know him personally, but I’ve heard of the work he does. (4)

Opaque: something that is unnecessarily complicated (12)

Pantry: place where antidotes are hopefully stored (11)

Passive: accepting what is happening without doing anything about it (1)

Perifido: It would be foolish to trust one of Olaf’s henchmen (12)

Plaque: metal rectangle with words carved on it, usually to indicate that something important has happened on the spot where the rectangle is attached (2)

Playing with fire: any dangerous or risky activity (7)

Rallied: regained her strength, and ability to breathe (12)

Recede from view: disappear from the porthole as it hurried away from the Queequeg (4)

Resigned: as if the mycologist had given up entirely on defeating Count Olaf (12)

Rivulets: tiny steams of water (13)

Scram: slip out of the room unnoticed and walk down the shadowy hallway Olaf had led them down just a little while earlier (11)

Sideboard: piece of furniture in the dining room, with shelves and drawers to hold various useful items (5)

Shelved the discussion: temporarily stopped their conversation (12)

Spur of the moment: while travelling through the Gorgonian Grotto (6)

Standing vigil: keeping nearby, to make sure everyone is safe (13)

Steeled themselves: summoned up as much strength as they could (11)

Stupefaction: amazement at seeing a man for the first time since their stay at Lucky Smells Lumbermill, when his kindness toward them had been one of the few positive aspects of that otherwise miserable chapter in their lives (2)

Suited up: prepared their helmets for an underwater journey (7)

Tables have turned: a situation that has suddenly been reversed, so that those who were preciously in a powerless position could suddenly find themselves in a powerful one, and vice versa. (12)

Tureen: a wide, deep dish used for serving stew or soup, instead of a small, terrified girl curled up in a piece of deep-sea equipment (8)

Uncharted waters: any place that is unknown, such as a forest in which every explorer has been lost, or one’s own future, which cannot be known until it arrives. (5)

Up and running: not destroyed under suspicious circumstances (6)

Volatile (12)

Waiting in the wings: coming up more quickly than you’d like (6)

Wheeze: make a hoarse, whistling sound indicating that her throat was almost completely closed up (11)

Whet my appetite: one’s hunger being awakened (7)

Whimsical: full of comic nonsense (12)



SUNNY SPEECH:

Absurdio: Philosophers live at the tops of mountains or in ivory towers, not underneath the sea. (5)

Amnesi: You’re forgetting something! (13)

Amuse bouche: Tiny water chestnut sandwiches, with a spread of cheese and sesame seeds (12)

And like sugar bowl. (6)

Antidote? (7)

Aye? (2)

Aye. (13)

Bamboozle! (I’m confused.) (3)

Bath or pink dress. (7)

Bugaboo? (5)

Caligari (1)

Chowda? (4)

Code (13)

Cook and teeth! (13)

Correctiona: Fiona was right, too – we’d better hurry if we want to escape from the Carmelita before Olaf notices we’re not in the brig. (13)

Count Olaf. (4)

Crew? (8)

Cuisi-: I’m looking forward to examining the kitch- (3)

Dephinpat? (What are Volunteer Factuall Dispatches, exactly?) (3)

Distance? (12)

Due: (Two) (13)

Esmelita: Along with Esmé Squalor and Carmelita Spats. (1)

Etartsigam: The initials were J.S. (5) (magistrate backwards)

Flosh: Don’t worry – I cleaned my teeth before using them as kitchen implements. (4)

Food: (talking about what to use as a code) (7)

Friend! (1)

Gack!: Look at that mysterious figure emerging from the fog! (13)

Gangway! (13)

Greenhut!: You could be of enormous help. (13)

Gum! (13)

Help! (13)

Hewenkella: (How will we be able to see our way?) (6)

Hmmm: (Something about knowing Violet was lying.) (7)

Hobson: I didn’t have much choice, given our surroundings. (7)

Hour? (8)

I? (What can I do?) (2)

I dunno, look! (6)

Imposiyakto?: How can we get to the bottom of the toboggan? (1)

Lousy. (7)

Malady: I’m beginning to feel unwell. (8)

Mamasan: (Something about what their mother used to say.) (7)

Me? (7)

Mission? (2)

Mission: Once we find the sugar bowl, our work here is done. (6)

Mmph!: (Dragging a diving helmet out of the kitchen) (13)

More code (13)

Mycolo: (Inside this helmet is the bugaboo of the mycological pantheon – the Meducoid Mycelium) (13)

Near you. (12)

No! (12)

Noblaym: But it’s still not our fault. (1)

Nottooti? (How do you know so much about us?) (2)

Obvio!: There’s only one answer that will get us into the submarine. (1)

Olaf! (4)

One (13)

On three: After I say one and two. (13)

Oxo?: Does that mean we can breathe without our helmets? (6)

Passive (1)

Periscope (5)

Pesto lo mein: (I found a package of soft Chinese noodles, which I tossed with an Italian basil sauce I got out of a jar. (7)

Pinstripe: Don’t worry – I’m used to ill-fitting clothing. (3)

Please (10)

Pronto: (7)

Procto?: The other end? (4)

Provisions: cooking supplies (11)

Quarwa? (5)

Quigley (1)

Rekoop: I had a brief nap, and when I woke up I felt well enough to cook something (12)

Rendezvous: (13)

Rest here. (12)

Sayonara (13)

Selphawa!: We can’t think about Quigley now – we have to think about ourselves. (1)

Serve cake: (13)

Shalom!: (Hello) (1)

Shivalrush: That’s very kind of you. (7)

Shiver me timbers! (We’re surprised!) (3)

Silencio: We never heard a reply. (4)

Sink?: Wouldn’t the sugar bowl just drift to the ocean floor? (4)

Snack!: Why don’t we stop for a bite to eat? (7)

Sous: I haven’t been cooking for very long. (2)

Speaking which (7)

Subjavik: (something about everything being so dark that it is unrecognizable (1)

Taykashans!: It’s our only chance to travel safely through these waters. (1)

Tedium (something about the watercycle being dull (1)

Thank you, saved me. (12)

Three can soup, jar peanut btter, box crackers, pesto, wasabi, lo mein. But nadasuchre. (6)

Tingamebob: There’s plenty of materials here in the sand. (7)

Traitor (13)

Tuckered: (I’m exhausted) (12)

Ugh: (talking about Carmlita singing and dancing) (9)

Ulp: I don’t like the idea of drifting by myself in a diving helmet. (6)

Utensi: (Something about utensils) (7)

Valve? (13)

V.F.D.! (1)

Wane: (Talking about the Meducoid Mycelium) (7)

Wasabi? (7)

Wasabi. (11)

Water (12)

What next? (12)

Whyno? (Why not?) (3)

Yes, Fiona? (6)

Yomhuledet: Don’t worry – Phil and I have arranged a surprise dessert for tomorrow night. (4)



GEOGRAPHY:

Mount Fraught (m) (1)

Stricken Stream (1)

Gulag Archipelago (4)

Mediocre Barrier Reef (4)

Anwhistle Aquatics (4)

Lake Lachrymose (m) (5)

Heimlich Hospital (m) (5)

Gorgonian Grotto (5)

Briny Beach (12)



FOODOLOGY:

Lemon-lime soda (3)

Chowder (5)

Peanut butter and crackers

Pesto lo mein

Chef’s Salad (10)

tagliatelle grande (11)

gum (11)

water chestnuts (11)

sesame seeds (11)

white, soft cheese (11)

Coconut cream cake (11)

Amuse bouche (12)

[Carrie E. Abelabudite]

May 13, 2019 7:25:20 GMT -5 Foxy said:

What realtors attacked the Queequeg? (2)

Presumably the same ones who sold Curdled Cave. Why they would have done this is unclear - they must be on the villainous side of the schism.

Royal Gardens Fire (5) the Royal Gardens were mentioned in TBB

And their being burnt down is mentioned in the RE notes. Here, we find out that Jacques proved that the fire was an arson before he died - maybe that's why Olaf says he's wanted for arson in TWW.

Olaf knew Fiona when she was a baby. (9)

The relationship between Olaf and the Widdershins family is an interesting one, although we only ever see fragments of it.

“You’re a marshmallow, Carmelita.” (9)

This is one of my favourite lines in the series.

How is a crouton supposed to save Kit? Is it a horseradish crouton? (10)

I was thinking that too, although the crouton comment throws a lot of confusion into the timeline. 

Are there only eight children aboard the Carmelita? Or does the submarine have more than eight arms? (11)

I thought maybe more than one child was operating each arm.

Esmé claims she was close friends with Fiona’s mother at school. (13)

Fiona's mother probably should have been a few years older than Esme - not so much so that they could not have gone to the same school at the same time, but enough that it's doubtful they would have been friends. It's easy to assume Esme is lying here, but probably more interesting to assume she isn't.

General Notes

I would say that this book is the weakest out of the last four, but still better than the first nine. I really like how the Baudelaires are in a setting where they encounter proper VFD members, and become more and more entrenched in the conspiracy. I also love the message of moral relativity that's introduced with this book. However, there are some elements in the setting and the plot that just don't come off as believable, even by Snicket standards.

The Egmont and HarperCollins covers are very similar, but I would say I prefer the Egmont one - I like the way Klaus' arm reaches out of the frame, and how Fiona is just visible in the background.

The dedication offers a slightly different slant on Lemony's motivation for researching the lives of the Baudelaires; it makes it seem like he's doing it to avenge Beatrice or her death in some way. I imagine this would be confusing for a first-time reader who didn't know Beatrice's identity.

Chapter One

The water cycle passages always make me laugh. It makes me think of one time when I was about ten and had a test on the water cycle at school, and I tried to claim that reading this book counted as studying.

'the phenomenon of what happens to Sunny Baudelaire over the course of these pages is the most dreadful phenomenon I can think of,' (p4) I don't think this line stood out to me particularly the first time I read the book - I'm not sure what I would have thought it was referencing.

'"I only wish we knew where [Quigley] was going."' (p5-6) He got swept away by a tributary - I doubt he even knows where he's going.

'They knew that Count Olaf was very eager to get his filthy hands on a certain sugar bowl,' (p7) This seems to elevate the significance of the sugar bowl - in TSS it wasn't really a central mystery, but suddenly it's something the Baudelaires regard as an important unanswered question.

'"Olaf said he'd be right behind us."' (p8) Except he has no way of getting down the mountain, since Violet punctured the tyre on his car. I guess he might have had a spare one with him, but still. The Baudelaires realised that he wouldn't be hot on their heels at the end of TSS, but now they seem to have forgotten. I guess the same can be said for Handler - Olaf's movements, and geography in general, are very confusing in this book.

'the Baudelaires had expected to see the hinterlands, a vast expanse of flat landscape where they had spent quite some time.' (p12) They were there for three days!

The Baudelaires realising the extent of the damage they caused to the hinterlands is a very sobering and powerful moment.

I think Sunny's letting them off a bit too lightly here. I guess it's fair to say the fire wasn't her fault, since she had already been taken to the car by Olaf by the time Violet and Klaus set fire to the tent, but I think the two of them can and should be blamed for that. They definitely did not have to do it, as Violet argues they did.

'the scraps of paper blowing past the Baudlaires were from another publication that would have been of enormous help had they stopped to collect the pieces.' (p14) What could this have been? The only thing I can think of is maybe an 'Infrequently Asked Questions' VFD pamphlet.

'At first it seemed to be the eye of some terrible sea creature,' (p18) Foreshadowing? I guess you could say this book is specifically a take on sea exploration stories like 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.

How could a periscope display the VFD insignia? You'd think the lens would be obscured, in that case.

Here, Sunny seems the most practical out of the Baudelaires.

[Dante]

May 13, 2019 16:44:05 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

'the Baudelaires had expected to see the hinterlands, a vast expanse of flat landscape where they had spent quite some time.' (p12) They were there for three days!

I'm of the opinion that the Village of Fowl Devotees, the Last Chance General Store, and Heimlich Hospital are all retroactively part of the Hinterlands; the environs of those locations, flat and empty and desolate, fit the Hinterlands description. I know TCC describes the hinterlands as "a vast and empty place very far from the very outskirts of the city, without even a small village for hundreds of miles" (p. 7), which seems to preclude any civilisation - but Caligari Carnival is there, after all, and the fact that it's able to get custom within a very short time of a new attraction being announced indicates that there's some scope for advertisement. It's shaky, but "without even a small village for hundreds of miles" can just about be read as indicating that it's dotted with small villages widely-separated.

This bumps the amount of time spent by the Baudelaires in the Hinterlands to over a week - which still isn't much, but a lot happened. With that said, I do think that Handler is unconsciously writing here from the perspective of the author, and we don't question it much because of our perspective as the readers. The characters spent only a few days in the Hinterlands; but in the real world we were there for years!

'At first it seemed to be the eye of some terrible sea creature,' (p18) Foreshadowing?

Or a good example of how easily a submarine can be mistaken for a sea monster...

[Foxy]

May 14, 2019 3:46:42 GMT -5 Dante said:

I'm of the opinion that the Village of Fowl Devotees, the Last Chance General Store, and Heimlich Hospital are all retroactively part of the Hinterlands;

Okay, speaking of this: yesterday I was googling the Luckiest Kids in the World jacket, and I found an alternate one which was purple and yellow from Egmont which I think went with THH instead of TUA. And then I clicked on the website, and the tab was called "The Hostile Hospital - Twenty-Four Doldrum Drive". What's that about?

[Carrie E. Abelabudite]

May 14, 2019 3:46:42 GMT -5 Dante said:

I'm of the opinion that the Village of Fowl Devotees, the Last Chance General Store, and Heimlich Hospital are all retroactively part of the Hinterlands; the environs of those locations, flat and empty and desolate, fit the Hinterlands description. I know TCC describes the hinterlands as "a vast and empty place very far from the very outskirts of the city, without even a small village for hundreds of miles" (p. 7), which seems to preclude any civilisation - but Caligari Carnival is there, after all, and the fact that it's able to get custom within a very short time of a new attraction being announced indicates that there's some scope for advertisement. It's shaky, but "without even a small village for hundreds of miles" can just about be read as indicating that it's dotted with small villages widely-separated.

That probably makes the most sense - the Netflix show emphasised this idea with the 'Visit VFD, the hub of the hinterlands' sign.

This bumps the amount of time spent by the Baudelaires in the Hinterlands to over a week - which still isn't much, but a lot happened. With that said, I do think that Handler is unconsciously writing here from the perspective of the author, and we don't question it much because of our perspective as the readers. The characters spent only a few days in the Hinterlands; but in the real world we were there for years!

I actually read all of the books over a short period of time, but I was young enough that I didn't notice any discrepancy with the timeline. 

Chapter Two

I like Captain Widdershins' contradictory instructions.

It's odd that Widdershins at first doesn't seem to know who they are, but then appears to realise before Violet introduces herself.

I love Lemony's thoughts on having a personal philosophy. 

'"We've been attacked by villains and leeches, by sharks and realtors, by pirates and girlfriends, by torpedoes and angry salmon!"' (p36) So, Josephine's fear of realtors wasn't so irrational after all. 'Girlfriends' makes me think of Esme, but maybe from the context, it makes the most sense to assume that they are the girlfriends of the pirates. It's possible said pirates are of the female Finnish variety, but I wouldn't necessarily think of them as being anti-VFD if they rescue the Baudelaires later.

I'd never noticed Widdershins using the phrase 'the belly of the beast' here before. Interesting call-back to TCC, but I like how the expression is repurposed for a different context.

'"The original second in the crew of two was Fiona's mother, but she died in a manatee accident quite a few years ago."
     "I'm not so sure it was an accident," Fiona said' (p42) I think I said this in a different thread, but this makes it sound like Fiona's mother was murdered. The emphasis is slightly different later.

If Fiona's mother didn't die/go away until she was, say, six or seven, Lemony might actually have been working on the Queequeg fairly recently. He'd probably know Fiona quite well. Also, could Widdershins really have forgotten Lemony's name? Maybe he's not saying it on purpose, thinking it will have significance to the Baudelaires/trying to protect Lemony's privacy.

'"We must find that sugar bowl before Count Olaf does!"' (p44) This is the point where the sugar bowl really becomes the driving force behind the plot.

Chapter Three

When did Lemony disguise himself as a pirate? This makes me think of Captain Sham, but this disguise must be different, although it could be comprised of similar elements. Also, I guess this means that the 'pirates' who attacked the Queequeg might just be villainous VFD members in disguise.

Widdershins taught Olivia about how to include a coded stain in a map? You'd think they'd be around the same age, but this makes it seem like Widdershins is a few years older at least. It almost sounds like he was her teacher or something, but I don't think that can have been the case.

What is in the test tube that Lemony is looking for?

'"my stepfather said we couldn't do anything about all the treachery the stories contained."' (p59) Seems odd for a member of an organisation dedicated to stopping treachery.

'"My stepfather said that the amount of treachery in this world is enormous, and that the best we could do was one small noble thing."' (p59) Despite this attitude possibly being at odds with the ethos of VFD, it seems to be one that many members have adopted. They aim to make the whole world quiet, yet really all they can manage are small areas of calm - and these are constantly under attack by villains.

[crono288]

May 14, 2019 8:15:52 GMT -5 Foxy said:

Okay, speaking of this: yesterday I was googling the Luckiest Kids in the World jacket, and I found an alternate one which was purple and yellow from Egmont which I think went with THH instead of TUA. And then I clicked on the website, and the tab was called "The Hostile Hospital - Twenty-Four Doldrum Drive". What's that about?

Looks like that's a small fansite run by forum member Q.R.V., probably originally for the game of the same name and then expanded to include those (rather impressive!) pages listing promotional items, among other things.

[Hermes]

May 13, 2019 16:44:05 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

'the Baudelaires had expected to see the hinterlands, a vast expanse of flat landscape where they had spent quite some time.' (p12) They were there for three days!

Dante's reading is certainly possible, but it's a persistent feature of the late books that while the explicit timeline, which can be worked out in some detail, has things happening very quickly, there are a lot of parenthetical comments which imply a much slower timescale - e.g. 'in the last few months Sunny had...' done various things that actually happened in the last two weeks. This has caused some debate in the past, bearing on the question of how unreliable a narrator Lemony is.

[Foxy]

May 14, 2019 3:46:42 GMT -5 Dante said:

The characters spent only a few days in the Hinterlands; but in the real world we were there for years!

So true!

May 14, 2019 9:55:22 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

So, Josephine's fear of realtors wasn't so irrational after all.

This makes me wonder if maybe all her fears were rational after all.

'"The original second in the crew of two was Fiona's mother, but she died in a manatee accident quite a few years ago."
     "I'm not so sure it was an accident," Fiona said' (p42) I think I said this in a different thread, but this makes it sound like Fiona's mother was murdered. The emphasis is slightly different later.

Are all the manatees mentioned in the series part of the same story? I don't think anyone died.

Widdershins taught Olivia about how to include a coded stain in a map? You'd think they'd be around the same age, but this makes it seem like Widdershins is a few years older at least. It almost sounds like he was her teacher or something, but I don't think that can have been the case.

Maybe Olivia was Widdershins' apprentice?

[Carrie E. Abelabudite]

May 15, 2019 5:02:25 GMT -5 Hermes said:

Dante's reading is certainly possible, but it's a persistent feature of the late books that while the explicit timeline, which can be worked out in some detail, has things happening very quickly, there are a lot of parenthetical comments which imply a much slower timescale - e.g. 'in the last few months Sunny had...' done various things that actually happened in the last two weeks. This has caused some debate in the past, bearing on the question of how unreliable a narrator Lemony is.

Out of story, it seems like Handler is just getting confused with the time scale. In story, saying that Lemony is an unreliable narrator is one way of resolving the discrepancy, but I think it makes things unnecessarily complicated. With that said, though, I can't really think of another in-universe explanation, except to say that Lemony is also confused. Which I guess is him being unreliable in a sense.

Chapter Four

The description of the Queequeg uniforms is a nice inversion of the pinstripe suits from TEE.

How would Fiona even know Quigley by reputation?

'"The volunteers lost track of [Quigley] a long time ago, along with Hector and the other Quagmire triplets."' (p69) This is confusing. They must have lost track of Quigley when he left Monty's house, but the way Fiona phrases this makes it sound like Quigley's movements were connected with Hector, Duncan and Isadora escaping in the SSHAMH, which I don't think can be true.

'"I found nothing that would interfere with receiving a telegram. [...] I think there must be a problem at the other end."' (p72) It sounds like there has been a villainous attack on Volunteer Factual Dispatches as well as regular telegrams and phones. Clearly, communications between volunteers have become compromised, which explains why so few of them seem to know what others are doing.

Why would Captain Widdershins have wanted Fiona to research the life of Herman Melville?

I forgot that the Mediocre Barrier Reef was in the book as well as the Netflix show.

Why Anwhistle Aquatics would have offered rhetorical advice is unclear.

Judging from what we later find out, Widdershins probably should know about the Gorgonian Grotto. I'm not sure if he's lying here, or he just hasn't put two and two together.

How did Olaf get down the mountain so quickly? And where would he have picked up the submarine? You'd think it would be too big to fit in the Stricken Stream, and if it had been in there, it would have come into contact with the Queequeg earlier.

Our first glimpse of the Great Unknown. Almost everything in this book makes it sound like it's a submarine, such as Lemony referring to it as an 'underwater craft' (p85)

Widdershins doesn't seem to know what the question mark is. The first time I read this, the line '"Even worse than Olaf, probably,"' (p87) made me think that it was a submarine operated by the Sinister Duo, since they were the only agents worse than Olaf we had seen so far.

Another amazing chapter ending. Lemony's right, it is a great conversational opener.

Chapter Five

I love the bit about conversational openers.

Seems like VFD members have a lot of dinner parties. A lot of their rituals as an organisation revolve around food.

'"Madame diLustro, I believe I've discovered your true identity!"' (p92) I think this is the only one of Lemony's friends from early on in the series that he mentions after the VFD subplot picks up. We already know from TRR that she likes hosting dinner parties and gets angry if people are late, but what is her true identity? I think this has been connected with Madame Lulu, but it's odd Olivia would have used two such similar aliases. Presumably, in any case, Madame diLustro is using the same disguise.

'Sunny was still a bit too young to carry hot food by herself,' (p94) But not too young to cook it? I love these little absurd details.

I also really like Lemony's musings on uncharted waters, which definitely seem to foreshadow what happens to the Baudelaires at the end of the series.

Here, we get some important back-story for VFD. 

So, when would the Snicket Snickersnee have happened? Fiona must have been alive, but it seems like it probably would have occurred more than, say, ten years prior to the events of ASOUE.

Now we find out that Lemony actually does have pet marmosets, or did at one point.

Widdershins' 'GG' guesses are very silly, but they still make me laugh. As with his lack of knowledge about the grotto earlier, later plot developments make it seem like he's lying here.

'"I thought I'd never live to see your mycological studies be put to good use," and I'm sorry to say that he was right.' (P101) This line is very confusing. First of all, it makes it sound like Widdershins is about to die, but we later find out he survives until the end of TE at least. Then, doesn't Fiona remembering about the Medusoid Mycelium and telling everyone about it before they enter the grotto count as Widdershins living to see her mycological studies be put to good use?

Mushroom Minutiae is another VFD book written in an incredibly confusing and opaque style.

'"I told you that book was too difficult!" Captain Widdershins said.' (p102) So, Widdershins has tried to stop Fiona reading this book in the past. Why? It must reveal a secret he's trying to keep covered up, but what?

'"The poison of a deadly fungus can be the source of some wonderful medicines."' (p106) From this, we see that there could be a legitimately noble reason to grow the MM, though we later find out that's not why it has been cultivated.

'"think of Count Olaf's enormous submarine, and the even more enormous one that chased it away!"' (p107) Widdershins certainly seems to think the question mark is a submarine, though we know from earlier that he doesn't actually know what it is.

'Perhaps it was because of their long, exhausting day, which had begun on the icy summit of Mount Fraught, but Violet didn't ponder one single mechanical idea as she got into bed,' (p110) I think this is probably more because she hasn't has a good night's sleep since before they went to VFD, unless you count the time she was under anaesthesia. 

Finally, the Baudelaires actually get some rest. Although I don't think they sleep again from here until they arrive on the Island.

Widdershins seems sort of manipulative here. He won't tell any of the children why the sugar bowl is important because he wants to protect them, yet he's perfectly willing to let them risk their lives to get it.  

[Hermes]

DH has actually said at one point that Lemony is unreliable; Beatrice also provides evidence of this, saying that his account of things sometimes differs dramatically from the Baudelaires' own. (Of course, it could be the Baudelaires who are unreliable. But Beatrice is at least right that he has a lousy sense of direction, given the position of the mountains in TCC.)

But how unreliable he is can still be debated. The milder view, which most people will prefer, is that the explicit dates are reliable, while the 'last few months' and so on are an error, caused by Lemony getting confused in-story the same way Handler did in real life. The more extreme view is that the events really took much longer, and the explicit dates are a deliberate foreshortening of events, intended to add excitement, and leave out long periods when the Baudelaires sat around doing nothing.

[Foxy]

May 15, 2019 10:22:08 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

'"I found nothing that would interfere with receiving a telegram. [...] I think there must be a problem at the other end."' (p72) It sounds like there has been a villainous attack on Volunteer Factual Dispatches as well as regular telegrams and phones. Clearly, communications between volunteers have become compromised, which explains why so few of them seem to know what others are doing.

If the noble side of the schism is so much smarter and more well-read than the evil side of the schism, why is the evil side able to prevail like this so much of the time?

I forgot that the Mediocre Barrier Reef was in the book as well as the Netflix show.

I love this part!

Widdershins' 'GG' guesses are very silly, but they still make me laugh.

I don't know about everyone else, but I think if you took out all the stuff about the water cycle, all the ridiculous stuff Widdershins rambles on about, and the annoying laugh of Count Olaf, you would have a far shorter, far less irritating eleventh installment of the series. Upon rereading, I often skip these parts!

[Dante]

May 16, 2019 6:59:43 GMT -5 Foxy said:

I don't know about everyone else, but I think if you took out all the stuff about the water cycle, all the ridiculous stuff Widdershins rambles on about, and the annoying laugh of Count Olaf, you would have a far shorter, far less irritating eleventh installment of the series. Upon rereading, I often skip these parts!

The Moby-Dick parallel goes deeper than I thought.

[Carrie E. Abelabudite]

May 15, 2019 10:41:15 GMT -5 Hermes said:

DH has actually said at one point that Lemony is unreliable; Beatrice also provides evidence of this, saying that his account of things sometimes differs dramatically from the Baudelaires' own. (Of course, it could be the Baudelaires who are unreliable. But Beatrice is at least right that he has a lousy sense of direction, given the position of the mountains in TCC.)

But how unreliable he is can still be debated. The milder view, which most people will prefer, is that the explicit dates are reliable, while the 'last few months' and so on are an error, caused by Lemony getting confused in-story the same way Handler did in real life. The more extreme view is that the events really took much longer, and the explicit dates are a deliberate foreshortening of events, intended to add excitement, and leave out long periods when the Baudelaires sat around doing nothing.

I guess I'd probably agree with the first option. Like I said yesterday, I think assuming Lemony is deliberately lying makes things more complicated than they need to be, since we have no way of finding out what 'really' happened.

May 16, 2019 6:59:43 GMT -5 Foxy said:

I don't know about everyone else, but I think if you took out all the stuff about the water cycle, all the ridiculous stuff Widdershins rambles on about, and the annoying laugh of Count Olaf, you would have a far shorter, far less irritating eleventh installment of the series. Upon rereading, I often skip these parts!

I know a lot of people find these annoying, but they always make me laugh. Even the water cycle parts, though I have to admit I can't read those passages straight through.

Chapter Six

'"Of course, if there's any opportunity to remove your helmets you should do so! Aye! That way the system can recharge itself, and you'll have more air."' (p117) Contrary to what we heard earlier, this makes it sound like Widdershins knows exactly what's in the grotto.

'[Citations for bravery] have not been known to be very useful when confronted by danger, whether deep underwater, or, as the Baudelaires would eventually learn, high up in the air.' (p120) I guess this doesn't exactly contradict what we find out later, but here it sounds more like they'll be in the SSHAMH when it happens, which might have been the plan when Handler was writing this. It's hard to say, though, because it seems like he would already have decided on Hotel Denouement and the Island as the main settings for the next two books.

'"And you still won't tell us why the sugar bowl is important?" Violet couldn't help asking.
     "It's not the sugar bowl," Captain Widdershins said, "it's what's inside it. Aye! I've already said too much! Aye! There are secrets in this world too terrible for young people to know!"' (p121) This really goes against what we've been told about the sugar bowl so far. TSS definitely made it sound like it contained evidence of Olaf's crimes, but based on Widdershins' speech here, that can't be the case. After all, the Baudelaires have already been the victims of many of Olaf's crimes; there would be literally no reason not to tell them. This has brought me to theorise that the sugar bowl contains evidence of the crimes of the 'noble' side of VFD, and the actual reason Widdershins won't tell the children is to save face. If this is the case, Lemony's statements about it in TSS don't make much sense, but like I said in that thread, you could argue he has been deluded about the sugar bowl's contents. Of course, the same could be said for Widdershins here. If it's such a disaster for the sugar bowl to fall into Olaf's hands, you'd think the volunteers would have removed its contents while it was at the headquarters, but it's possible they might have. If that is true, then the sugar bowl would be empty by this point, and the only reason any of the volunteers would be looking for it would be in order to lure Olaf into the trial.

'Sunlight had not reached the waters of the grotto for quite some time - not since Anwhistle Aquatics was still up and running, a phrase which here means "not destroyed under suspicious circumstances"' (p126) - The most obvious thing to assume here would be that Olaf burnt it down, which makes it all the more interesting when we realise it's more complicated than that.

Who is the woman heading for the Queequeg? Presumably she's the one with the sugar bowl, who also convinces Widdershins and Phil to leave. I've seen it theorised that she is R, and that seems like a possibility. There are also mysterious women running around in TPP, though I'm not sure if they can all be the same person.

'"How can we still be below the surface of the sea, without any water around us?"' (p129) This is a good question that's never answered.

Did Lemony rescue a kidnapped Gregor Anwhistle? When would this have happened and why was he kidnapped?

I love the illustration of Sunny with the peanut butter.

Chapter Seven

'"It looks like they've stopped advancing," Violet said, pointing at the line of gray mushrooms, and the other volunteers saw that she was right.' (p142) Is this the first time the Baudelaires are referred to as 'volunteers' by the narrative?

'"Otherwise, my stepfather will wonder what's become of us. Eventually he'd put on his diving helmet and go investigate..."' (p144) This is a perfectly reasonable thing for Fiona to assume, and a good reason for the children not to try to leave through the passage. Still, on a reread, it feels like a punch in the gut, knowing they'll have to go back to the abandoned submarine. 

I love the Hobson's choice story.

I also love the parent memories here. It's such a powerful moment.

'It is often difficult to admit that someone you love is not perfect, or to consider aspects of a person that are less than admirable.' (p148) A very relatable sentiment. The idea of the Baudelaires drawing a line in their memories after their parents died adds to this. It fits in with the journey of the Baudelaires growing up over the course of the series, and the transition from the simple to the complex. Their realisation that they will be unable to go back also feels important.

'"I'm beginning to think this is a fool's errand," Violet said, using a phrase which here means "errand performed by a fool."' (p152) Ha! This has to be one of the best 'which here means' in the series.

The idea that a whole book is dedicated to Versed Furtive Disclosure suggests there are many different poetry-related VFD codes. I don't think I'd ever picked up on that before. 

'The Baudelaires had lost track of time while searching through the sand of the grotto, and the snack Sunny had prepared them made them realize just how long it had been since they had eaten.' (p154) No matter how long they've spent in the grotto, there's no way they've gone as long without eating as they did earlier in the series.

'"We'll draw up a list of foods and what they mean in our code. We'll bring them up in conversation, and our enemies will never suspect that we're actually communicating."' (p159) I mean, I think they probably would, even if they didn't understand what was being said.

The letter from Kit to Gregor shows a more sinister side to 'noble' VFD than we've seen so far. I like how Fiona realises that the situation is more complicated than just pigeon-holing Gregor as a 'villain'.

If you read the passage about playing with fire closely you'll realise what happened to the sugar bowl, at least in broad brush strokes. What I like about this kind of reveal, though, is that it's very easy to skim over on a first read. I didn't pick up on it at first, anyway, which made it really exciting when I actually did notice it. I like how it's an extra piece of info for the sharp-eyed reader - for someone with good observational and/or note taking skills. It makes the reality of VFD feel much more immersive. The mention of card games is another clue that could easily go over your head on a first read.

[Dante]

May 16, 2019 10:45:43 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

'[Citations for bravery] have not been known to be very useful when confronted by danger, whether deep underwater, or, as the Baudelaires would eventually learn, high up in the air.' (p120) I guess this doesn't exactly contradict what we find out later, but here it sounds more like they'll be in the SSHAMH when it happens, which might have been the plan when Handler was writing this. It's hard to say, though, because it seems like he would already have decided on Hotel Denouement and the Island as the main settings for the next two books.

My interpretation at one point was that, when the Hotel Denouement inevitably set aflame, the Baudelaires would be trapped on the roof - only to be rescued by the SSHAMH... which would then be brought down over the seas by the sinister duo and their eagles, scattering the characters to the winds. I honestly believe something like that was probably what Handler was planning.

'Sunlight had not reached the waters of the grotto for quite some time - not since Anwhistle Aquatics was still up and running, a phrase which here means "not destroyed under suspicious circumstances"' (p126) - The most obvious thing to assume here would be that Olaf burnt it down, which makes it all the more interesting when we realise it's more complicated than that.

Thinking about it, it would be rather strange for sunlight to have reached the grotto while Anwhistle Aquatics was standing, too. What, did they have a series of giant skylights right down to the grotto?

Who is the woman heading for the Queequeg? Presumably she's the one with the sugar bowl, who also convinces Widdershins and Phil to leave. I've seen it theorised that she is R, and that seems like a possibility. There are also mysterious women running around in TPP, though I'm not sure if they can all be the same person.

One of TPP's mysterious women notably wears a diving suit, who I've taken as having retrieved the sugar bowl from the pond. If that's so, though, it would be farcical for her to also have been the one to remove the sugar bowl from Gorgonian Grotto and sent it off to its next destination; and yet I have always read the two as being the same person. The reason is that I've never interpreted her as being the person who removed the sugar bowl from the grotto; if we take the later hint you cite in relation to the "playing with fire" passage, regarding "journeying through a dark cave filled with a poisonous fungus in order to search for an object that was taken away quite some time before" (p. 163) - then, well, that doesn't apply to the woman in the passages, because she can only have been there minutes before, not "quite some time". The Baudelaires just missed her.

Thinking about it... it's clear there's no submarine that brought this woman to the grotto, or it would have been in the Queequeg's way, but presumably she can't have swum all the way there from the mainland. I'd imagine she must have come by boat, or perhaps by an aerial vehicle such as a plane or a helicopter, both of which we know V.F.D. uses; and descended from above using climbing equipment, which explains how she had access to the Vertical Flame Diversions. Did she anticipate that Widdershins was also hot on the trail of the sugar bowl, and go straight to the open end of the grotto after failing to find it - or perhaps he was always her target? And then she could have taken Widdershins and Phil away by means of this alternative vehicle.

In any case, what happens to the sugar bowl between the Stricken Stream and its delivery by crow to the Hotel Denouement is an utter blank. I'll want to discuss the mysterious woman and her motives again later, but this also marks the point at which Phil departs from the narrative, shortly to be forgotten entirely.

'It is often difficult to admit that someone you love is not perfect, or to consider aspects of a person that are less than admirable.' (p148) A very relatable sentiment. The idea of the Baudelaires drawing a line in their memories after their parents died adds to this. It fits in with the journey of the Baudelaires growing up over the course of the series, and the transition from the simple to the complex. Their realisation that they will be unable to go back also feels important.

I have always wondered if Lemony was also talking about Beatrice at this point.