Great 667 Re-Read 2019 - The Grim Grotto

[Foxy]

May 16, 2019 10:45:43 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

'"Of course, if there's any opportunity to remove your helmets you should do so! Aye! That way the system can recharge itself, and you'll have more air."' (p117) Contrary to what we heard earlier, this makes it sound like Widdershins knows exactly what's in the grotto.

Yes, you would think if he is familiar with Anwhistle Aquatics, he would know about the grotto being beneath it.

'[Citations for bravery] have not been known to be very useful when confronted by danger, whether deep underwater, or, as the Baudelaires would eventually learn, high up in the air.' (p120) I guess this doesn't exactly contradict what we find out later, but here it sounds more like they'll be in the SSHAMH when it happens, which might have been the plan when Handler was writing this. It's hard to say, though, because it seems like he would already have decided on Hotel Denouement and the Island as the main settings for the next two books.

I always imagined the Baudelaires were going to be reunited with the Quagmires. I found it quite disappointing that the reunion never took place, as the Quagmires were their only friends in the entire series.

Did Lemony rescue a kidnapped Gregor Anwhistle? When would this have happened and why was he kidnapped?

I thought Gregor died in the fire that destroyed AA?

I love the illustration of Sunny with the peanut butter.

Me too! The jar is pretty much the same size as her.

'"Otherwise, my stepfather will wonder what's become of us. Eventually he'd put on his diving helmet and go investigate..."' (p144) This is a perfectly reasonable thing for Fiona to assume, and a good reason for the children not to try to leave through the passage. Still, on a reread, it feels like a punch in the gut, knowing they'll have to go back to the abandoned submarine. 

But if the grotto was so narrow only a child could fit through it, I don't see how Widdershins could have even fit.

'"I'm beginning to think this is a fool's errand," Violet said, using a phrase which here means "errand performed by a fool."' (p152) Ha! This has to be one of the best 'which here means' in the series.

My favorite is still from TRR, "perpetuate his deception, a phrase which here means, 'lie, lie, lie'.

May 16, 2019 16:22:07 GMT -5 Dante said:

May 16, 2019 10:45:43 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

'It is often difficult to admit that someone you love is not perfect, or to consider aspects of a person that are less than admirable.' (p148) A very relatable sentiment. The idea of the Baudelaires drawing a line in their memories after their parents died adds to this. It fits in with the journey of the Baudelaires growing up over the course of the series, and the transition from the simple to the complex. Their realisation that they will be unable to go back also feels important.

I have always wondered if Lemony was also talking about Beatrice at this point.

I think that is entirely plausible. No one is perfect.

[Dante]

May 17, 2019 6:52:33 GMT -5 Foxy said:

But if the grotto was so narrow only a child could fit through it, I don't see how Widdershins could have even fit.

Although this is implied by page 113, the Baudelaires' passage through the grotto isn't described as being a particularly narrow fit. In fact, their journey into the grotto is undertaken in complete darkness while they are carried freely by the current - and only once does one of them briefly scrape against an external surface. Their return journey isn't described, but it's possible for the three fully-suited volunteers to travel while holding hands, which doesn't make the passage sound too snug.

Bearing in mind that, because of the darkness, the Baudelaires and Fiona literally could not see their surroundings - do we accept that the entrance to the grotto was genuinely too tight for an adult? Widdershins only starts out by saying that the submarine can travel no deeper, which is reasonable; it takes several more pages, until page 118, for him to say that the grotto is too narrow for him. But this is Widdershins we're talking about; do we believe him? I think perhaps there was some reason in particular he wanted the Baudelaires and Fiona to be the ones to enter the grotto; it would be easy to say that, as the captain, it's his responsibility to stay back and man the craft... but with Widdershins, there's always an ulterior motive, isn't there?

[Foxy]

Do you think Widdershins is a bad guy? Sometimes it seems like he is nice enough; he lets the Baudelaires stay on the submarine and doesn't believe they are criminals. But then you talk about him having ulterior motives... I wonder what the ulterior motives were?

[takatoguil]

Well, this is a man who sends four children unsupervised into one of the deadliest places in ASOUEland and ditches them while they're out, so calling him a good guy unreservedly seems like a bit of a stretch, even allowing for the moral ambiguity of the closest things we have to good people in the series.

Wouldn't it be ironic if he wasn't dragged away on some good guy mission like the TV show writers assumed in their struggle (which yes, I know includes Handler - the author is dead, folks), but was instead just volatile enough to switch sides for some reason we'll never be able to fathom?

[veryferociousdrama]

Esmelita sounds an awesome name! This doesn't have any point, I just though it.

Widdershins seems to be holding some form of regret about Aunt Josephine. If Josephine did survive TWW, which I believe she did, it's most likely she'd have been picked up in the Queequeg. Presumably she asked for him and Fiona not to reveal anything to anyone. We'll come back to to this point.

Hmm, Fiona's mother. Is she alive or not? She could be dead, she could be Miranda Caliban. I'm not entirely sure. But I don't like the idea of Widdershins being Thursday, who's clearly on the Villains' side.

Is Phil a Volunteer? It doesn't really make sense if he's not in VFD to be on a VFD ship. But it seems weird if he is though. One conclusion is that he, and a few people we see in TPP are kind of half-members, as in they know some information, but VFD mainly use them.

How old is Widdershins? If he taught Olivia the code, was she his apprentice? I imagine him to be quite old.

Despite TSS, from a first time reader POV, this is the first time you really imagine how big VFD is on both sides of the Schism. You really get the greatness of the situation.

How do the other Volunteers know Jacques is dead? The most logical explanation is that Hector telegrammed everybody else, informing them of the news. But the Queequeg isn't getting telegrams... Do the news reports contain pictures?

How was Anwhistle Aquatics burnt? If it's in water.

Just who is the swimming woman? I believe her, personally, to be Aunt Josephine. She got picked up by the Queequeg, but asked Widdershins and Fiona not to say anything, and was hiding out in the area. Even if she did see the Baudelaires, she didn't say anything either because she was guilty for what had happened in TWW, or she is angry about what happened. I suppose it also makes sense to be R. I'm neutral about the matter.

The Baudelaires finally remembering the bad stuff about their parents is a turning point. Like some form of phase of grief.

Kit's letter to Gregor begging him not to release the poison is very dark and much unlike any Volunteer's actions throughout the series prior. I'm sure Gregor had good intentions, but somewhat misguided. Who would he have poisoned? Olaf? Esme? The Sinister Duo?

So Widdershins and Phil have disappeared, presumably picked up by the woman; Josephine or R. She was presumably picking them up to take them to the Hotel, but they somehow got split up during their journey.

When did Olaf/Sinister Duo kidnap the kids from Prufrock Prep? It was most likely the Sinister Duo, and I expect after Ms K left, and the kids are all sat there in TUA. Nero's very much an idiot, so I doubt he'd have noticed if a huge bunch of kids were stolen if a small bunch were.

Do we forgive Fernald now we know he was once a Volunteer? No, I don't think so. He's still a pretty bad person, who did some very bad things. But I suppose a theme that's starting to come up in the series is that good people do bad things, and nobody's entirely good or evil.

So Fiona/Fernald's birth father left? Makes me suspect he's a Villain. I wonder why Handler decided to make Widdershins their stepfather, and not their birth father. Probably to make him a guardian instead of a parent.

How long did it take between Fiona joining the troupe and her leaving it? And how did Olaf, Esme and Carmelita get to the Hotel?

My respect for Mr. Poe has dwindled even further if he's given up hope of finding the Baudelaires just under two weeks after they went missing. Though to be fair a lot seems to have happened to everyone in that past fortnight.

[Carrie E. Abelabudite]

May 19, 2019 2:10:27 GMT -5 veryferociousdrama said:

Hmm, Fiona's mother. Is she alive or not? She could be dead, she could be Miranda Caliban. I'm not entirely sure. But I don't like the idea of Widdershins being Thursday, who's clearly on the Villains' side.

Even if Miranda Caliban is Fiona and Fernald's mother, I don't think it necessarily follows that Widdershins is Thursday. I get the feeling that Mrs Widdershins would have died/left her family a couple of years before Friday was born, so if she is the same character who later turns up as Mrs Caliban, Friday's father would either possibly be the same man as Fiona and Fernald's father, or else someone else altogether. I don't think there's any indication in the text that he's villainous - in TE, Kit says she had coffee with him recently, which she probably wouldn't have done if he were openly on the 'wicked' side of the schism.

Is Phil a Volunteer? It doesn't really make sense if he's not in VFD to be on a VFD ship. But it seems weird if he is though. One conclusion is that he, and a few people we see in TPP are kind of half-members, as in they know some information, but VFD mainly use them.

I think he is a volunteer in the sense that he is currently working to help VFD. He doesn't seem to have been recruited as a child, but presumably Widdershins has filled him in on what he needs to know about the organisation. It seems like, by the time of ASOUE, the VFD training process is not what it once was. If many parents no longer wanted their children to be recruited, their whole operating system would have to have adapted quite a bit. Add this to the fact that there seem to be many disagreements within the organisation, and that their enemies are actively stopping them from trying to communicate, and it explains why so few VFD members seem to have the full picture.

How do the other Volunteers know Jacques is dead? The most logical explanation is that Hector telegrammed everybody else, informing them of the news. 

Presumably they read it in TDP. Widdershins says that most of the articles have a grain of truth, so although he did not believe the Baudelaires were murderers, he probably did realise that Jacques was actually dead.

How was Anwhistle Aquatics burnt? If it's in water.

I think most of it was above the water. The only part that wasn't, the Gorgonian Grotto, is still intact.

When did Olaf/Sinister Duo kidnap the kids from Prufrock Prep? It was most likely the Sinister Duo, and I expect after Ms K left, and the kids are all sat there in TUA. Nero's very much an idiot, so I doubt he'd have noticed if a huge bunch of kids were stolen if a small bunch were.

Does it say the 'recruits' are from Prufrock? I thought they were just a subset of the captured Snow Scouts. I guess many of them could have been students there like Carmelita.

Chapter Eight

I really cannot picture the layout of the Queequeg. This gets even harder to imagine when we get to the Carmelita.

The description of the woman disguised as a mailbox always makes me laugh.

'And a small, ceramic bowl, with a tight-fitting lid to keep something important inside, might be difficult to find in the laundry room of an enormous hotel,' (p178) I'd forgotten that particular subplot was set up here. Of course, the sugar bowl is never actually in the laundry room. Does Lemony think his enemies might be reading this book? He might be attempting to throw them off with this line. If that's the case, though, it's odd he would have revealed as much as he has. I guess it's also possible he doesn't know the whole plan - Dewey seems to have masterminded it, and he might not have told many people in order to make the decoy more convincing.

'"Get Sunny out at once, or she'll be poisoned!"' (p179) Will she? Or will she just suffocate? This is never made entirely clear.

Chapter Nine

Olaf's story here makes it sound like he went to the city before getting the Carmelita, which seems impossible given that at the end of TSS he was stranded at the top of Mount Fraught with no transport and managed to get back near the Stricken Stream in time for his brief appearance in Chapter Four. Now I think of it though, it's possible the eye submarine there might not necessarily be Olaf - if the Carmelita is a VFD-standard sub he stole, other volunteers/villains might have the same one. If that's true, his movements between the end of TSS and this point make much more sense, though it still seems like it should have taken longer to do all the things he's been described as doing during this period.

I'm curious about the relationship between Olaf and Captain Widdershins. Olaf must have met Fiona as a baby, which suggests the Widdershins family might have been friends with him, but the idea that he was throwing thumbtacks as her negates this to a degree. Still, the line '"Your stepfather has abandoned you, eh? Well, I suppose it was only a matter of time."' (p195) implies that he knows Widdershins quite well, or at least feels as though he does. It would also make more sense for Fernald to join Olaf's troupe if he knew and trusted him prior to the destruction of Anwhistle Aquatics.

'"A tap-dancing ballerina fairy princess veterinarian doesn't wear hand-me-downs!"' (p207-8) Carmelita is wearing clothes from Olaf's disguise kit - wouldn't those also technically be hand-me-downs?

'"You like that sugar bowl more than me," Carmellta pouted.
     "of course we don't, darling," Esmé said. "Olaf, tell her that sugar bowl doesn't mean a thing to you! Tell her she's like a wonderful marshmallow in the middle of our lives!"' (p208) Well, this is a one-eighty for Esme..

The ending of this chapter is amazing.

Chapter Ten

I assume Lemony is speaking from his own experience in the passage about sadness.

'"Those are just the bad aspects of [Count Olaf," the hook-handed man said. "There are many good parts, as well."' (p216) The first time in the series where it seems like Count Olaf isn't entirely evil.

'"Why should I care if [Sunny] dies?" [Fernald] asked. "She's made my life miserable from the time I met her."' (p218) Another perspective that's very different to what we've seen so far. Though Fiona's argument against this statement is entirely fair.

'"The Widdershins family's participation in a recent schism has raised several questions"' (p221) - This surely cannot be referring to the main schism that divided VFD. The way it is phrased makes it sound like it's something on a more personal scale. I guess the argument between Gregor and Kit/Widdershins/Fernald could be counted as a schism.

'"The difference between the two sides of the schism," Klaus said, "is that one side puts out fires and the other starts them."' (p221) Although the schism isn't quite as clear-cut as Klaus makes it sound here, and although the 'good' side of VFD is certainly not as truly noble as Klaus seems to think, this is a very good point that is easy to forget, what with everything that comes after. One side of VFD at least tries to do the right thing, even though they do not always succeed, and the other side has just given up on caring, even if they started out with pure intentions.

'"The Punctilio got everything wrong," [Fernald] said."' (p222) Odd that Jacques of all people would have written such an inaccurate article. I think Dante has made this point before, but it is possible he uses his influence in TDP as a way to stop his enemies, even if that means telling falsehoods about them.

'"The last time you saw me," [Fernald] said to Fiona, "I had two hands, instead of hooks. Our stepfather probably didn't tell you what happened to me"' (p222-3) - Based on the things Fernald says in this chapter, it sounds like he was indeed a guilty party in the destruction of Anwhistle Aquatics, but he did not act alone. This line makes it seem like Widdershins knew what happened. If that's the case, maybe they set the fire together, but then it's hard to see why Fernald would have run away. Maybe Widdershins pressured him into setting/helping him set the fire?

'"People aren't either wicked or noble," the hook-handed man said. "They're like chef's salads, with good things and bad things chopped and mixed together in a vinaigrette of confusion and conflict."' (p223) Probably the most important thing anyone says in the whole series.

I don't think that the portraits on the uniforms are the best way of highlighting the moral differences between Fernald and the Baudelaires. I know there's meant to be a degree of absurdity in Klaus' comparison between Herman Melville and Edgar Guest, but it sort of trivialises a very serious moment.

Chapte Eleven

I like the way the illustration is split around the text.

I love Carmelita's song.

Which poet wrote about the MM? Presumably a VFD member - maybe Isadora's poetry tutor?

'"Does 'dilution' mean the same things 'antidote'?"' (p245) The text acts like it does, but I'm not sure it should. 'Dilute' sounds like it makes the poison weaker without entirely countering its effects. Then gain, it's not actually been established that the MM is, indeed poisonous and does not kill people simply by obstructing their airways. Everybody talks as though it is poisonous, but the description of Sunny being 'infected' really just makes it sound like she can't breathe because the mushrooms are growing in her throat.

Chapter Twelve

Who took the photo of the Widdershins family? Could it have been Olaf, on the same occasion he threw thumbtacks at Fiona?

Fiona must really have bad vision if she needed glasses at such a young age.

'"In just a few minutes," Esmé bragged, "we will arrive at the Hotel Denouement, thanks to our bratty rowing crew."' (p278) Wait, what? I'm sure this is inconsistent with the amount of time it takes for the Bauds to get to Briny Beach later. Even if Hotel Denouement is on the other side of the city, I presume it should take more or less the same amount of time to get there from the Mortmain Mountains. Then, this completely contradicts the descriptions in the previous books of how far way the hinterlands/mountains are from the city.

Wait, the Widdershins family has a fortune? It's odd that Widdershins can't seem to afford to hire someone to repair the submarine properly, then. Maybe Olaf is confused here.

I don't get why the Baudelaires are so angry at Fiona at this point. They heard Fernald tell Esme that Fiona was joining the troupe, and, at that time, they understood he was lying to offer an explanation as to why they weren't in the brig. Presumably, Fernald and Fiona haven't had time to tell the truth/escape, and the only way for Fiona to help stop the Baudelaires from being captured would be to put on the Edgar Guest uniform. 

Chapter Thirteen

Mr Poe looks very sinister in this illustration as compared to the illustration of him from TMM.  

Chapter Thirty-Nine of Mushroom Minutiae is Visitable Fungal Ditches. Why this would be so crucial remains unknown. Does this connect with any of the VFD stories we hear over the course of the series?

'I think how terrible it would feel to be chased out of a cloud by the process of precipitation, and tumble to earth like a sugar bowl.' (p285) Another clue to what will happen to the sugar bowl in TPP.

I like the sense of things coming full circle present in this chapter. It reminds me of the déjà vu bit from TCC, but it's a variation that feels fresh.

Again, I think the Baudelaires are overly judgmental of Fiona. Of course she would say she has joined the 'bad' side of the schism when Olaf is standing right there, regardless of what she actually intended to do. Her next line, about the family being together again, does make it sound like she's serious, though.

'"We didn't get away from you lat time," Klaus said. "you helped us sneak over here, to save Sunny. You said you wanted to come with us when we escaped in the Queequeg and joined VFD at the last safe place."' (p287) Why sell Fernald out like this? It's not like it will help the Baudelaires - if anything, it diminishes the chance that he'd be willing to let them escape again.

'"I also find this amusing!"' (p289) Ha!

'"How can you ask me to abandon my brother?"' (p290) I have no doubt the Baudelaires would do the same thing as Fiona is here were their situations reversed. I think they're a lot harsher on her than they should be.

I forgot that Olaf actually attempted to do a dance in this chapter. He's a lot closer to his Netflix counterpart here than he is in the early books.

Honestly, I think the worst thing Fiona does in this book is tell Olaf what's in the diving helmet. I guess he probably would have found out anyway, but still. It doesn't come across as something she had to do.

'"The Medusoid Mycelium," [Olaf] murmured, and he ran his tongue thoughtfully along his teeth. "Could it be?"
     "impossible," Esmé Squalor said. "That fungus was destroyed long ago."' (p296) This, to my mind, debunks the popular fan theory/Netflix solution that the sugar bowl contains horseradish. I guess we could say Esme wants to find the sugar bowl just because she feels it is hers, but the last couple of books have proven that finding it is also important to Olaf, and there's no reason why he would feel this way if it contained an antidote to a fungus he didn't know still existed. With that said, as with other characters, it's possible they think it contains something other than what it actually does. Though, considering Esme is its original owner, this seems less likely. 

'"For far too long, you keep defeating my plans and escaping from my clutches - a happy cycle for you orphans and an unprofitable one for me. But now the tables have turned, Baudelaires."' (p300) I like how this book challenges so many of our previously-held assumptions.

It's sort of unfair that Lemony wouldn't offer Klaus the same level of privacy he did Violet in TSS (I mean, I get why Handler couldn't include a similar passage in this scene, but still).

'[Widdershins] was wrong about his wife's death, because as Fiona suspected, Mrs Widdershins did not die in a manatee accident.' (p310) Unlike what Fiona said about her mother earlier, this sounds like Mrs Widdershins is still alive.

I wonder what the woman who convinced Widdershins to leave the Queequeg said to him.

'Captain Widdershins was wrong to trust his stepson for so many years, and wrong to participate in the destruction of Anwhistle Aquatics,' (p310) Huh. So Fernald was certainly not entirely responsible for the fire, and might well have acted on his stepfather's orders. If that's the case, why was Widdershins wrong to trust him? Maybe because he trusted Olaf?

'he was wrong to insist, as he did so many years ago, that a story in The Daily Punctilio was completely true, and to show this article to so many volunteers, including the Baudelaire parents, the Snicket siblings, and the woman I happened to love.' (p310) It's possible this article accused Lemony of crimes Olaf had committed, or else was his obituary. Also, this has been pointed out before, but it's weird the Baudelaire parents are separate from Beatrice on this list. I guess we could say Lemony is referring to a different generation of Baudelaire parents?

'there are secrets in this world too terrible for anyone to know, wether they are as young as Sunny Baudelaire or as old as Gregor Anwhistle' (p311) - This makes it sound like Gregor is vey old, but we know Josephine can't be more than, say, three or four years older than Lemony, which means she can't be older than her early forties or so by the time ASOUE is taking place. Assuming Ike was not older than Josephine by a huge amount, Gregor probably can't be older than, say, his early seventies, and probably should be a bit younger than that. Maybe he is not literally the oldest person Lemony knows, just an example of a generically old person with whom he is acquainted. That's a bit of a stretch, though.

'They could not even tell, just as I will not tell, if it was some horrifying mechanical device, such as a submarine, or some ghastly creature of the sea.' (p311) I think this is the first indication that the question mark might not be a submarine. What Lemony says about it here fits with the idea that it could be the Bombinating Beast, but doesn't have to mean that it is. No matter what, he does seem to know its true nature, making the fact that he calls it 'the great unknown' odd, but more on that when we get to TE.

Poe thinks JS stands for Geraldine Julienne?? Also, who told him the Baudelaires would be at Briny Beach? The Snicket Sleuth theorises it was Kit, in order to make leaving with her seem more appealing - a real-time example of a Hobson's choice. That paints her as very manipulative, but isn't necessarily out of line with what we see of her character in TPP.

This is a real moment of character development for the Baudelaires - we see that they are finally completely unwilling to put their faith in the hands of conventional authority. Instead, they put it in the hands of VFD. TPP and TE will show that this faith is ultimately somewhat misplaced.

I love the ending. I'm not sure it's as good as TCC, but it's definitely close.

To My Kind Ediotr

I think the first time I read this book, I assumed TPP might feature wild animals, since the letter at the end of THH was also torn up. I must have overlooked the fact that the first letter gives the 'very long fingernails' explanation.  

[Foxy]

May 18, 2019 12:49:49 GMT -5 takatoguil said:

Wouldn't it be ironic if he wasn't dragged away on some good guy mission like the TV show writers assumed in their struggle (which yes, I know includes Handler - the author is dead, folks), but was instead just volatile enough to switch sides for some reason we'll never be able to fathom?

It wouldn't be completely out of the realm of possibilities. Fiona switched sides - kind of - until she and Fernald double-crossed Count Olaf.

May 19, 2019 2:10:27 GMT -5 veryferociousdrama said:

How do the other Volunteers know Jacques is dead? The most logical explanation is that Hector telegrammed everybody else, informing them of the news. But the Queequeg isn't getting telegrams... Do the news reports contain pictures?

Did the Baudelaires say something about this in their telegram to Mr. Poe?

Just who is the swimming woman? I believe her, personally, to be Aunt Josephine. She got picked up by the Queequeg, but asked Widdershins and Fiona not to say anything, and was hiding out in the area. Even if she did see the Baudelaires, she didn't say anything either because she was guilty for what had happened in TWW, or she is angry about what happened. I suppose it also makes sense to be R. I'm neutral about the matter.

Yes to Aunt Josephine!!!

Nero's very much an idiot, so I doubt he'd have noticed if a huge bunch of kids were stolen if a small bunch were.

Either that or he just wouldn't care.

My respect for Mr. Poe has dwindled even further if he's given up hope of finding the Baudelaires just under two weeks after they went missing.

Ha! I never realized this.

May 19, 2019 19:16:21 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

May 19, 2019 2:10:27 GMT -5 veryferociousdrama said:

Hmm, Fiona's mother. Is she alive or not? She could be dead, she could be Miranda Caliban. I'm not entirely sure. But I don't like the idea of Widdershins being Thursday, who's clearly on the Villains' side.

Even if Miranda Caliban is Fiona and Fernald's mother, I don't think it necessarily follows that Widdershins is Thursday. I get the feeling that Mrs Widdershins would have died/left her family a couple of years before Friday was born, so if she is the same character who later turns up as Mrs Caliban, Friday's father would either possibly be the same man as Fiona and Fernald's father, or else someone else altogether. I don't think there's any indication in the text that he's villainous - in TE, Kit says she had coffee with him recently, which she probably wouldn't have done if he were openly on the 'wicked' side of the schism.

I think Miranda Caliban is their mother, and Thursday is their father, and she got back together with him after leaving the Queequeg and had Friday.

'"People aren't either wicked or noble," the hook-handed man said. "They're like chef's salads, with good things and bad things chopped and mixed together in a vinaigrette of confusion and conflict."' (p223) Probably the most important thing anyone says in the whole series.

I agree. I think this is the theme of the entire series.

Wait, the Widdershins family has a fortune? It's odd that Widdershins can't seem to afford to hire someone to repair the submarine properly, then. Maybe Olaf is confused here.

Widdershins is so scatter-brained he probably never even thought to hire someone to fix the submarine. Either that, or he's one of those people who thinks, "Why should I hire someone when I can probably pick up another crew member to do the repairs for free?

Chapter Thirty-Nine of Mushroom Minutiae is Visitable Fungal Ditches. Why this would be so crucial remains unknown. Does this connect with any of the VFD stories we hear over the course of the series?

Where might these ditches be located?

'"How can you ask me to abandon my brother?"' (p290) I have no doubt the Baudelaires would do the same thing as Fiona is here were their situations reversed. I think they're a lot harsher on her than they should be.

Agreed.

'"For far too long, you keep defeating my plans and escaping from my clutches - a happy cycle for you orphans and an unprofitable one for me. But now the tables have turned, Baudelaires."' (p300) I like how this book challenges so many of our previously-held assumptions.

It depends on how you look at it.

This is a real moment of character development for the Baudelaires - we see that they are finally completely unwilling to put their faith in the hands of conventional authority. Instead, they put it in the hands of VFD. TPP and TE will show that this faith is ultimately somewhat misplaced.

But then later they go with Mr. Poe instead of getting into a taxi. :/

I love the ending. I'm not sure it's as good as TCC, but it's definitely close.

This one's my favorite ending, I think. Which is ironic, because this was one of my least favorite books.

I think the first time I read this book, I assumed TPP might feature wild animals, since the letter at the end of THH was also torn up. I must have overlooked the fact that the first letter gives the 'very long fingernails' explanation.  

Do you think Esme tore up the letters?

[Dante]

May 19, 2019 19:16:21 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

I really cannot picture the layout of the Queequeg. This gets even harder to imagine when we get to the Carmelita.

Handler really isn't very good with spatial layouts. I think he just makes it up as he goes along and doesn't worry about the details. Hmm, what does that remind me of?

'And a small, ceramic bowl, with a tight-fitting lid to keep something important inside, might be difficult to find in the laundry room of an enormous hotel,' (p178) I'd forgotten that particular subplot was set up here. Of course, the sugar bowl is never actually in the laundry room. Does Lemony think his enemies might be reading this book? He might be attempting to throw them off with this line. If that's the case, though, it's odd he would have revealed as much as he has. I guess it's also possible he doesn't know the whole plan - Dewey seems to have masterminded it, and he might not have told many people in order to make the decoy more convincing.

Strictly speaking, it's only a hypothetical. He might be joining forces with Dewey here to throw the villains off the scent - although this would only be a valid course of action in a very specific timeframe...

Olaf's story here makes it sound like he went to the city before getting the Carmelita, which seems impossible given that at the end of TSS he was stranded at the top of Mount Fraught with no transport and managed to get back near the Stricken Stream in time for his brief appearance in Chapter Four. Now I think of it though, it's possible the eye submarine there might not necessarily be Olaf - if the Carmelita is a VFD-standard sub he stole, other volunteers/villains might have the same one. If that's true, his movements between the end of TSS and this point make much more sense, though it still seems like it should have taken longer to do all the things he's been described as doing during this period.

Another case where the time between books seems strangely elastic. This is a difficult one to account for; it would be nice to suggest that he found the submarine at the Valley of Four Drafts ruins, but it's clear that he couldn't get it working until he rejoined the sinister duo - i.e. picked up a bunch of children to row the craft for him. Well, we never see his car again, so maybe he ran it on its punctured tyre to the point of collapse just to get to the hotel?

The ending of this chapter is amazing.

Easily one of the best in the series. We're so used to the troupe being blank ciphers that the idea of one of them having a name and a backstory connected to people we know is honestly flabbergasting.

'"The Punctilio got everything wrong," [Fernald] said."' (p222) Odd that Jacques of all people would have written such an inaccurate article. I think Dante has made this point before, but it is possible he uses his influence in TDP as a way to stop his enemies, even if that means telling falsehoods about them.

Aye, that is indeed my suggestion. It doesn't put Jacques in the best light - but it's far from being implausible, and nicely ties up a plot hole from the U.A. in which Jacques inaccurately suggests that Dr. Orwell was murdered by Olaf.

'"The last time you saw me," [Fernald] said to Fiona, "I had two hands, instead of hooks. Our stepfather probably didn't tell you what happened to me"' (p222-3) - Based on the things Fernald says in this chapter, it sounds like he was indeed a guilty party in the destruction of Anwhistle Aquatics, but he did not act alone. This line makes it seem like Widdershins knew what happened. If that's the case, maybe they set the fire together, but then it's hard to see why Fernald would have run away. Maybe Widdershins pressured him into setting/helping him set the fire?

It's a very confused situation. It seems Widdershins was willing to participate in the destruction only so far, but wasn't willing to sacrifice his role and good name in V.F.D. He passed the buck, in other words; no wonder Fernald has such mixed feelings about him.

'"Does 'dilution' mean the same things 'antidote'?"' (p245) The text acts like it does, but I'm not sure it should. 'Dilute' sounds like it makes the poison weaker without entirely countering its effects. Then gain, it's not actually been established that the MM is, indeed poisonous and does not kill people simply by obstructing their airways. Everybody talks as though it is poisonous, but the description of Sunny being 'infected' really just makes it sound like she can't breathe because the mushrooms are growing in her throat.

There's very much a subtext of disease as much as poison to the Medusoid Mycelium; I guess it makes it easier to conceptualise. It's not necessarily clear that any of these versions of events line up with the actions the Baudelaires take in The End to prevent a future Medusoid Mycelium outbreak, but by that time the Medusoid Mycelium has basically become instant-acting magic rather than something you can probably safely hide from by sitting just a few metres away.

'"In just a few minutes," Esmé bragged, "we will arrive at the Hotel Denouement, thanks to our bratty rowing crew."' (p278) Wait, what? I'm sure this is inconsistent with the amount of time it takes for the Bauds to get to Briny Beach later. Even if Hotel Denouement is on the other side of the city, I presume it should take more or less the same amount of time to get there from the Mortmain Mountains. Then, this completely contradicts the descriptions in the previous books of how far way the hinterlands/mountains are from the city.

This is curious, and I can only put it down to Handler wanting to fill more time before TPP again; there's every reason to believe he expected TPP to involve the city quite heavily. Or perhaps there's just an extremely long peninsula between the hotel and Briny Beach, and it takes all night to get around it despite being only a short drive?

I don't get why the Baudelaires are so angry at Fiona at this point. They heard Fernald tell Esme that Fiona was joining the troupe, and, at that time, they understood he was lying to offer an explanation as to why they weren't in the brig. Presumably, Fernald and Fiona haven't had time to tell the truth/escape, and the only way for Fiona to help stop the Baudelaires from being captured would be to put on the Edgar Guest uniform. 

You delve more into this later, but likewise, I have always strongly disagreed with the Baudelaires' ultimate conclusions on Fiona. She never betrayed them; the moment she can act freely she lets them go without a quibble. In actual fact, they betrayed her - they were on the brink of ditching her with Olaf's troupe and going off on their own, with her submarine!

I like the sense of things coming full circle present in this chapter. It reminds me of the déjà vu bit from TCC, but it's a variation that feels fresh.

The fact that this is done here is perhaps one reason why we don't ultimately trouble ourselves with the promised third trip to Briny Beach in The End; it wouldn't achieve anything new.

'"The Medusoid Mycelium," [Olaf] murmured, and he ran his tongue thoughtfully along his teeth. "Could it be?"
     "impossible," Esmé Squalor said. "That fungus was destroyed long ago."' (p296) This, to my mind, debunks the popular fan theory/Netflix solution that the sugar bowl contains horseradish. I guess we could say Esme wants to find the sugar bowl just because she feels it is hers, but the last couple of books have proven that finding it is also important to Olaf, and there's no reason why he would feel this way if it contained an antidote to a fungus he didn't know still existed. With that said, as with other characters, it's possible they think it contains something other than what it actually does. Though, considering Esme is its original owner, this seems less likely. 

I've said it before, I'll say it again - and it goes for both the books and for Netflix, now: You can have horseradish in the sugar bowl, or you can have the plot of TGG - but you can't have both.

'"For far too long, you keep defeating my plans and escaping from my clutches - a happy cycle for you orphans and an unprofitable one for me. But now the tables have turned, Baudelaires."' (p300) I like how this book challenges so many of our previously-held assumptions.

Definitely one of my favourite lines in the book.

It's sort of unfair that Lemony wouldn't offer Klaus the same level of privacy he did Violet in TSS (I mean, I get why Handler couldn't include a similar passage in this scene, but still).

In fairness, this wasn't a private moment.

'he was wrong to insist, as he did so many years ago, that a story in The Daily Punctilio was completely true, and to show this article to so many volunteers, including the Baudelaire parents, the Snicket siblings, and the woman I happened to love.' (p310) It's possible this article accused Lemony of crimes Olaf had committed, or else was his obituary. Also, this has been pointed out before, but it's weird the Baudelaire parents are separate from Beatrice on this list. I guess we could say Lemony is referring to a different generation of Baudelaire parents?

As with certain uses of the term "red herring", I genuinely believe that Handler started out with the premise that Beatrice was the Baudelaire mother - and then at some point he wobbled, and was no longer certain; so he started planting doubts. This one's definitely a red herring too far, though (the other, more direct instances of red herrings can be argued to themselves be red herrings).

'there are secrets in this world too terrible for anyone to know, wether they are as young as Sunny Baudelaire or as old as Gregor Anwhistle' (p311) - This makes it sound like Gregor is vey old, but we know Josephine can't be more than, say, three or four years older than Lemony, which means she can't be older than her early forties or so by the time ASOUE is taking place. Assuming Ike was not older than Josephine by a huge amount, Gregor probably can't be older than, say, his early seventies, and probably should be a bit younger than that. Maybe he is not literally the oldest person Lemony knows, just an example of a generically old person with whom he is acquainted. That's a bit of a stretch, though.

I feel that Josephine was almost certainly not envisaged as being Lemony's age until Handler decided to put her in ATWQ.

Poe thinks JS stands for Geraldine Julienne?? Also, who told him the Baudelaires would be at Briny Beach? The Snicket Sleuth theorises it was Kit, in order to make leaving with her seem more appealing - a real-time example of a Hobson's choice. That paints her as very manipulative, but isn't necessarily out of line with what we see of her character in TPP.

JS = Geraldine Julienne is an entertaining moment of stupidity for Poe, but I don't recall ever hearing a good explanation for it. Julienne, yes; but, say it with me now - what does the S. stand for?

I love the ending. I'm not sure it's as good as TCC, but it's definitely close.

Note also that this is where we learn Kit's full name, after knowing her for some years only as "K." Much discussion was had on what exactly the initial might stand for - a common practice in the series, of course; I personally favoured Kay, which I think would have been a good joke, but I suppose The Simpsons already did it...

I think the first time I read this book, I assumed TPP might feature wild animals, since the letter at the end of THH was also torn up. I must have overlooked the fact that the first letter gives the 'very long fingernails' explanation.  

The first (and, I suppose, the only) Kind Editor letter not to reveal the title of the next book. The year-long guessing game for the title - stretched out by HarperCollins almost to the limit - was tremendously good fun, though there's no doubting that the title we got was the best of the lot.

[Uncle Algernon]

May 24, 2019 15:27:11 GMT -5 Dante said:

'And a small, ceramic bowl, with a tight-fitting lid to keep something important inside, might be difficult to find in the laundry room of an enormous hotel,' (p178) I'd forgotten that particular subplot was set up here. Of course, the sugar bowl is never actually in the laundry room. Does Lemony think his enemies might be reading this book? He might be attempting to throw them off with this line. If that's the case, though, it's odd he would have revealed as much as he has. I guess it's also possible he doesn't know the whole plan - Dewey seems to have masterminded it, and he might not have told many people in order to make the decoy more convincing.

Strictly speaking, it's only a hypothetical. He might be joining forces with Dewey here to throw the villains off the scent - although this would only be a valid course of action in a very specific timeframe...

Alternate idea: since Lemony is, as a matter of fact, saying that letting the Bowl end up in the laundry room would be a bad idea (from the perspective of noble Volunteers then trying to reclaim it before the villains catch up with them), this may in fact be a clue that it's not in the laundry room. 

May 24, 2019 15:27:11 GMT -5 Dante said:

I've said it before, I'll say it again - and it goes for both the books and for Netflix, now: You can have horseradish in the sugar bowl, or you can have the plot of TGG - but you can't have both.

Unless, of course, the Sugar Bowl contains bitter-apple-cores/whatever but some villains, Olaf included, think it contains something else altogether. 

I don't think the criticism is as valid for the Netflix series as it is for the book-based theory, anyway. Strain belief though it might (though not moreso than many other bits of characterizations in ASoUE, I'd argue), the Netflix series makes it exceedingly clear that Esmé is obsessed with the Sugar Bowl not because of what it contains, but because it was stolen from her and nobody steals from Esmé Gigi Geneviève Squalor. Olaf, for his part, explicitly shows not a shred of interest in the Bowl until he learns that Medusoid Mycellium is still around (cf. "YES HONEY I KNOW YOU WANT THE SUGAR BOWL!!!!" in Part 1 of TGG) 

[Dante]

May 24, 2019 16:05:55 GMT -5 Uncle Algernon said:

Unless, of course, the Sugar Bowl contains bitter-apple-cores/whatever but some villains, Olaf included, think it contains something else altogether. 

At which point the question of what's really in the sugar bowl becomes moot, if there are people with mistaken beliefs and it's all a matter of opinion. Sugar bowl speculation is meaningless if an unknown number of the clues are in fact irrelevant, because we have no way of telling which are valid and which are not; it's only an interesting question if there's a grand unifying answer which accounts for every clue. There is no grand unifying answer.

This, incidentally, is what I've come to conclude; that the best-fit explanation is indeed that the characters in the series all have conflicting understandings of what the contents of the sugar bowl are - possibly derived from mistaking reports of multiple genuine secret-concealing sugar bowls for a single item. What's in the sugar bowl? It's impossible to determine and doesn't actually matter.