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Post by veryferociousdrama on Jun 2, 2019 15:48:08 GMT -5
Tissues out!
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Jun 3, 2019 6:46:20 GMT -5
General Notes
The first time I read this book, I found it kind of boring. I think it was just a combination of it not including some of the things I had liked so much about the previous few entries in the series, and how much more philosophical it was than the earlier books, which caused the pacing to be somewhat slower. When I got older and became more interested in the mystery/VFD conspiracy, I then found the ending really frustrating. However, every time I reread the book, I like it more. I think it's very fitting for this series that the finale completely subverts all our expectations, and I think it also works really well as a foil to TPP. I don't like it as much as TPP, but other than that I'd say it's my favourite in the series, though it's hard to pick between this and TSS, because the things I like about them are so different.
I really like this dedication, even though it's simple.
Chapter One
I love Lemony's musings on onions - the analogy works really well, I think.
'I am sorry to tell you this, but that is how the story goes.' (p2) I love how sentences from TBB are repeated in this book, and this one is especially fitting.
'all Olaf had been doing for the past few days was bragging about [his crimes].' (p5) It says on the previous page that they've only been on the boat for one night.
'it was the Baudelaires, not Olaf, who had burned down the Hotel Denouement.' (p7) I'm not sure this is fair. It was the Baudelaires' idea, but Olaf helped.
'Klaus was examining his notes on V.F.D. and the schism, which was an enormous fight involving all of its members and had something to do with a sugar bowl.' (p7) I know this is just summarising what Klaus thinks, which might not be correct, but it's still odd - I don't think the schism and the sugar bowl have ever been directly connected before this. Indeed, the original schism probably can't be related to the sugar bowl - certainly not the same sugar bowl Beatrice and Lemony stole from Esme - although a more recent sub-schism might be.
It's very funny that Sunny now uses more complex words than standard English, like 'equivalent flotilla' instead of 'same boat'.
'Violet, Klaus, and Sunny like all children, had always wanted to believe the best about their parents, but as time went on they were less and less sure.' (p17) A very relatable thought.
I really like Lemony's description of a moral compass here.
'When the Baudelaires first encountered count Olaf, their moral compasses never would have told them to get rid of this terrible man,' (p18) This has been pointed out before, but Violet actually does think about hurting Olaf in TBB. I think this shows not so much how the Baudelaires' morality itself has changed, but rather their awareness of it.
'But as it happened, Violet, Klaus and Sunny did not have to make this decision, because at that instant, as with so many instants in the Baudelaire lives, the decision was made for them,' (p19) This is important, I think. There are some instances where the Baudelaires have made bad choices, but in a lot of cases, they have just been sort of swept along into unfortunate situations.
'"Unless," Sunny said,' (p20) Since Klaus is talking about needing nourishment in the previous line, some people have suggested that Sunny is proposing they eat Olaf here, but I think she's just saying that their food will last longer if they push him overboard. It does say on page 16 that, without Olaf on the boat, 'There would be one fewer person with whom to share the remaining beans'.
Chapter Two
The Egmont version of this book is missing illustrations - the one for this chapter, and then the final three illustrations. For those, they just have blank pages, but here, they inserted a picture of Handler posing as Snicket, holding a manuscript (it's the same photo that is used for the 'About the Author' section at the end of Chapter Fourteen) It looks pretty bad - I don't know why they didn't check they had all the illustrations.
Presumably, Lemony ended up on the Island after eventually managing to successfully research the experience of a storm at sea. It almost seems like you can only get there by being shipwrecked, which has all kinds of strange implications.
'"Unless we find our concierge sunglasses,"' (p30) Did the Baudelaires have their concierge sunglasses at the beginning of the storm? They must have taken them off before the trial in order to put on their blindfolds.
'Count Olaf led the way, [...]interrupting the silence every so often to demand coffee, fresh juice, and other equally unobtainable breakfast items.' (p34) The way this is phrased makes me think he could be asking for the sugar bowl, though it's not a very significant moment even if so.
In Lemony's memory of Beatrice, it's weird she'd be referring to him as 'Mr Snicket'. Maybe they're in a situation where they have to pretend they don't know each other, like Lemony and Kit in ?4. One wonders what situation this would have been, though - from the context, it sounds like they're about to go to a VFD party, in which case it's weird they'd be disguising their identities, unless enemies they wanted to spy on would also be there.
'"People have lived on the island for many, many years."' (p40) This is probably true, but Friday shouldn't know anything about the Island's history before Ishmael came there.
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Post by Dante on Jun 3, 2019 11:33:40 GMT -5
'it was the Baudelaires, not Olaf, who had burned down the Hotel Denouement.' (p7) I'm not sure this is fair. It was the Baudelaires' idea, but Olaf helped. Another example of Handler trying too hard, I think, to make us believe in the Baudelaires' moral degeneration. It's especially baffling that this actual new information on the sugar bowl comes in a book in which the sugar bowl is no longer relevant. I'm not sure if it's Handler actively rewriting the plot, or him forgetting exactly what he had already established in the previous book - see above in the case of the Baudelaires' morality, too. I think I'm actually the one who first pointed this out to Egmont; they hadn't realised that they'd been sent an incomplete file, as I recall it. I can only suppose that they received what was supposed to be the complete file and sent it straight on to the printers without actually looking it over. Chapter Two must have been a placeholder. |
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Post by Foxy on Jun 3, 2019 13:22:23 GMT -5
Personal Notes:
Really? Count Olaf’s hopes and dreams are to buy himself a car and run people off the road? (1)
“It’s worse than that salad your parents used to make!” Why did the parents invite Count Olaf over? (1)
“It depends on how you look at it.” (3) theme of the book
“I’m not but a fairly innocent maiden with my belly full of baby.” (6) best line of the entire series
“But they weren’t convinced that Count Olaf should be locked in a cage himself…” (6): What exactly do they think jail is?
“the way most classrooms have at least one child who is quite unpopular (7) this is a very sad truth
“Do you think that I just sat in my home in the city, waiting for you miserable orphans to stumble into my path?” (7): No, he went around stealing cake.
“A schism.” “Gesundheit.” (8)
Where are the Quagmires? (8)
“They did not understand how Count Olaf had entered their lives.” (9)
Where were the triangular picture frame and the brass lamp in the shape of the fish? (9)
Glittering green dragonfly mask is probably Beatrice’s. (9)
Piece of rubber that looked like a fan belt – from Olivia? (9)
broken telegraph pole – another nod to TCC (9)
Cape made of silk – Snicket’s (9)
Backdrop of a sunset, such as might be used in the performance of an opera – La Forza del Destino? (9)
Ishmael was on the bathyscape Snicket had destructed? (10) Also, which waiter was Ishmael talking to at what restaurant? Larry?
“the destruction of a tea set” (10) dun dun dun.
“Some time ago, two women sailed off with this very snake…” (10): the white-faced women? (10)
Ishmael has the Duchess’s ring. (10)
Count Olaf and Ishmael know each other. (11)
“The adoption papers were hidden in the hat of a banker who had been promoted to Vice President in Charge of Orphan Affairs… although at the time he was better known under his stage name.” Mr. Poe doesn’t get that promotion until after the first book, and he isn’t known under a stage name during any of the books, so this is not the same Mr. Poe? (11)
“… which for all I know they may be doing.” (12) Maybe the Baudelaires are still alive.
“Beatrice is hiding a small about in a vess[el]” (12): the sugar bowl?
“He’s been here the longest…” (13): what about the colonists who were already there when Ishmael arrived?
“There’s something in the hybrid that’s bad for people who haven’t been born yet.” (13): GMO!!!
“…and my brothers.” (13): Does Kit think Lemony is dead? Does everyone think Lemony is dead?
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THE END
CHARACTERS:
Violet Baudelaire (1)
Klaus Baudelaire (1)
Sunny Baudelaire (1)
Count Olaf (1)
Kit Snicket (1)
Quagmire Triplets (1)
man with a rickshaw business in the Caspian sea (1)
Carmelita Spats (m) (1)
Esmé Squalor (1)
Captain WIddershins (m) (1)
Friday (2)
Ishmael (3): used to be a school teacher who taught chemistry class (10): escaped from a cage Count Olaf locked him in (11)
Uncle Monty (m) (3)
Madame Lulu (m) (3)
Justice Strauss (m) (3)
Fiona (m) (3)
Snow Scouts (m) (3)
Alonso (4): endured a terrible political scandal (11)
Ariel (4): escaped from prison after disguising herself as a man for years (11)
Sherman (4)
Robinson (4): bearded man in overalls
Erewhon (4): old woman: lived on an island even farther away (11)
Wheydon (4): red-haired woman: arrived on a raft of books (11)
Ferdinand (4)
Larsen (4)
Omeros (4): a boy about Klaus’s age
Finn (4): a young girl
Brewster (4)
Calypso (4)
Byam (4): had an unusally curly mustache: lived a simply life as a sailor (11)
Mr. Pitcairn (4)
Dr. Kurtz (4): veterinarian
Professor Fletcher (4)
Madame Nordoff (4) – suggests they return to Winnipeg? (11)
Rabbi Bligh (4)
Jonah Bellamy (4)
Sadie Bellamy (4)
Dr. Orwell (m) (4)
Mrs. Miranda Caliban (4): Friday’s mother
Charles (m) (5)
woman disguised as a pretzel vendor (5)
financial expert (5)
coat-check boy (5)
playwright (5)
waitress (5)
woman disguised as a puppy (5)
Dewey Denouement (m) (6)
Incredibly Deadly Viper (6)
Thursday (m) (8): Friday’s father, who is still alive
Mr. Poe (m) (9)
Little girl with one eyebrow and one ear (m) (10)
terrible woman (m) (10): drunkard who killed a man with a cantaloupe
two brothers (m) (10): owned a melon farm
Monday (11): Count Olaf’s associate, a woman
old man who was involved in a political scandal (11)
Gonzalo (m) (11): Alonso’s acquaintance
a man who owned a schooner (11): Count Olaf decided to steal the schooner, adopted grandson had his same name
Humphrey (m) (11): Weyden’s acquaintance
Betrand (m): Omeros’ acquaintance
trolley driver (m) (13)
botanical hybridization expert (m) (13)
typewriter repairpeople (m) (13)
violinist at the restaurant where the Baudelaire parents met (m) (13)
Hector (m) (13)
Fernald (m) (13)
Beatrice II (13)
VIOLET’S INVENTION:
water filtration device (13)
KLAUS’S RESEARCH:
read A Series of Unfortunate Events (12)
childcare (13)
SUNNY’S BITING/COOKING:
helped cook island food
baby food (13)
THE LIBRARY:
the arboretum
SNICKET SECRETS:
He stood on a large wooden boat, ready to take notes, but by the time the storm was over, he never wanted to speak of it again. (2)
He spoke with the Baudelaire’s mother, and she said to ask people which secret code they prefer, or find out whom they’ve been spying on lately. (2)
He was shipwrecked recently and washed aboard a barge where he was served a five-star meal after the storm in a creek. (4)
He was hiding in an alley pretending to look for a puppy who was actually a disguised woman the same day Sunny had her first swim in the Fountain of Victorious Finance. (5)
“or most secret organizations have at least one rhetorical analyst who is under suspicion.” (7)
After he concluded his investigation, he visited certain graves, spent his mornings standing out on a brae staring out at the same sea at which the Baudelaires stared. (13)
REFERENCES (real and made up):
Zombies in the Snow
The Little Engine that Could (10)
story about a girl who takes the first bite of an entire bushel of apples (13)
Ivan Lachrymose – Lake Explorer (13)
Mushroom Minutiae (13)
The Night has a Thousand Eyes by Francis William Bourdillon (13)
This Be The Verse by Philip Larkin (13)
P.G. Wodehouse
V.F.D.:
Very Flavorless Diet (5)
Vaporetto of Favorite Detritus (13)
Volunteer Fire Department (13)
SNICKETISMS:
the one about the layers of an onion (1)
the one about a moral compass (1)
the one about there being lots of words which mean more than one thing (2)
the one about peer pressure (5)
the one about hallmarks (6)
the one about “as honest as the day is long” scarcely meaning anything at all (6)
the one about thinking about something being like picking up stones while on a walk to shatter the glass doors of a museum (8)
the one about the Cimmerians (8)
the one about “in the dark” and ballerinas (9)
the one about the Little Engine that Could (10)
the one about happiness being easier to get used to than despair (rootbeer floats) (11)
the one about how the first bite of an apple is the best (13)
the one about the end (13)
the one about crying about all the terrible things that have happened (13)
BAUDELAIRE FAMILY HISTORY:
Their mother told them people love to talk about themselves. (2)
Their mother had a nifty card trick. (4)
Their mother used to make ceviche at the beginning of crab season. (4)
Their father let Sunny swim in the Fountain of Victorious Finance on a very hot day while their mother was in a building receiving a weather report and a naval map which she would study later that evening. A pretzel vendor spied on them and took pictures, which she gave to a financial expert (Esme?) who went to a restaurant (Veritable French Diner to meet Jerome?) where the coat-check boy took the camera and gave it to a playwright for dessert (Al Funcoot?) but the waitress threw the dessert out (Jacqueline Szezka?). (5)
Klaus’s father would find him in the morning still clutching his flashlight and his book. (8)
The family once attended a Sicilian picnic. (9)
Before Sunny was born, Violet and Klaus had an argument about whose turn it was to take the garbage out. Violet’s mother brought her star anise tea, and she remembered it was her turn. (10)
The harpoon gun was used to shoot at a cotton candy machine at a county fair when the parents were very young. (11)
Their father used to make curried peanut soup, and their mother used to make gingerbread. (12)
Their parents met at a candle-lit restaurant where a violinist was playing, and there was something hidden in the violin which a girl put there, and a man made the girl an orphan, and a tea party was held at a penthouse suite, and a baker made scones, and the baker’s assistant smuggled a secret ingredient into the scone batter, and someone pretended to be a fire. (13)
The children are named after people who have died. (13)
SNICKET DICTIONARY:
Aberrant: very, very wrond, and causing much grief (13) (nod to TBB)
Anarchic: apple-loving (13)
Area of expertise: the part of the room in which each Baudelaire would most like to spend time (9)
Argy-bargy: argument (11)
Braeman/braewoman: someone who lives all alone on a hill (5)
Contemptuously: while trying to scratch his nose within the confines of the bird cage (7)
Countered: said in a firm and sensible tone of voice, even though it was not necessarily a sensible thing to say (4)
Detritus: all sorts of strange items (2)
Don the garments of shibboleth: wear the warm and somewhat unflattering clothing that was customary to people they hardly knew (3)
Don’t rock the boat: don’t upset people by doing something that is not customary (4)
Dubious scientific efficacy: unlikely to heal sore feet (3)
Feet of clay: a person who appears to be honest and true, but who turns out to have a hidden weakness or treacherous secret (7)
Grating: irritating, and sadly familiar (5)
Had Ishmael in tow: dragged along he sleigh behind them, sitting on his white chair as if he were a king with his feet still covered in hunks of clay and his woolly beard billowing in the wind (6)
Hallmarks: distinguishing characteristics (5)
Herculean task: something you would rather not do on a library raft floating on a flooding coastal shelf (13)
Hold their tongues: keep from confronting Olaf about his foolishness (1)
How do you like them apples?: I find this situation quite remarkable (13)
Idleness: lounging around with Mrs. Caliban, sipping cordial and staring at the sea (5)
Imperious: mighty and a bit snobbish (6)
In medias res: in the midst of things or in the middle of a narrative (13)
Insouciant: the opposite of curious (5)
Intact: not broken, so the food stored inside was still edible (1)
Joint was hopping: full of islanders in white robes, all holding items they had scavenged from the coastal shelf (3)
Labor: the process by which a woman gives birth (13)
Languor: inability to pull a large, wooden sleigh at a reasonable pace (11)
Look a gift horse in the mouth: turn down an offer of a hot meal, no matter how disappointed they were in the person who was offering it (8)
Palatable: that wasn’t ceviche (4)
Peer: someone with whom you are associating (5)
Pressure: the influence such people often have (5)
Quivering in mirth: making unpleasant rustling noises (11)
Reconcile: admit that it didn’t matter in the slightest whose turn it was, and that the only important thing was to get the garbage out of the kitchen before the smell spread to the entire mansion (10)
Refresher course: another opportunity to feel the stalks and caps of the Medusoid Mycelium begin to sprout in her little throat (12)
Reiterated: announced for the umpteenth time (1)
Revere: praise highly, and have a great deal of respect for (2)
Savor: read slowly, as each sentence in their parents’ handwriting was like a gift from beyond the grave (12)
Sheepishly: looking quite embarrassed to be following the orders of a young girl (2)
Sibilant: a sort of whistle or hiss (12)
Soda jerk: ice cream shop employee who is trying to injure your tongue (11)
Submerged: hidden (3)
Succumbing: aceepting, rather than refusing, what you are given (5)
Talaric: just reaching the ankles (5)
The end: completion of a story. (13)
Tide them over: help deal with a difficult situation (13)
Under a cloud: people who are out of favor in a particular community (6)
Unfavorable light: the things the Baudelaires had done that were perhaps as treacherous as Count Olaf (3)
Zabras: small boats usually used off the coasts of Spain and Portugal (9)
SUNNY SPEECH:
All overboard. (1)
Already lost. (2)
Anais: In the flesh. (8)
And baby. (8)
And Dewey is dead. (13)
And if not? (8)
And kitchen, maybe horseradish. (12)
And now. (5)
And spices? (10)
Apples! Bitter apples! (12)
Beans: Count Olaf is spouting pure nonsense. (1)
Boswell: Your life doesn’t interest me. (7)
Brae? (3)
But what to do? (7)
Cloves, cardamom, arrowroot, wormwood. (12)
Coastal shelf. (2)
Cook? (3)
Demarc? (What’s a facilitator?) (3)
Diaspora: We live in such a distant place that the battle between V.F.D. and their enemies seems very far away. (5)
Dreyfuss?: What precisely are you accusing us of? (6)
Electra: A family shouldn’t keep such terrible secrets. (10)
Enigmorama: (It seems this island has plenty of secrets.) (8)
Equivalent Flotilla: (we’re in the same boat) (1)
Familia? (9)
Fat chance. (3)
Ferment? (3)
Fibber. (6)
First swim. (5)
Fountain. (5)
Friday! Take apple! (13)
Fritters with cinnamon. (9)
Fungus! (7)
Fustianed! (You’re lying!) (7)
Gal Friday. (3)
Gentreefive: (agreement) (12)
Gibbon: We want to read this history, no matter how miserable it is. (10)
Grate coconut. Delicious cake. (4)
Guesso. (3)
Have an apple. (13)
Hightail it: We’d better hurry. (12)
Holiday? (3)
Hope horseradish. (12)
How many? (8)
I still miss home. (5)
If fire, then saltbake carp. (7)
If we fail, at least we die reading together. (12)
In medias res! (13)
Incredi!: (Incredibly Deadly Viper!) (6)
Ink. (9)
Janiceps: I’m of two minds about living here. (5)
Jojishoji: I don’t believe that abridging the freedom of expression and the free exercise thereof is the proper way to run a community (10)
Kikbucit? (Is Count Olaf dead?) (2)
Kit did. (7)
Kontiki: There’s no way they’ll survive the journey. (13)
Land? Don’t see. (2)
Land ho! (2)
Lethe?: (What’s an opiate?) (10)
McGuffin: Your scheming means nothing in this place. (13)
Meledrub: I find that hard to believe. (4)
Negihama: (I could prepare some Japanese dishes for the colony if there were any wasabi to be had.) (4)
Neiklot: Why are you telling us about this ring? (10) (Tolkien spelled backward)
No apples. (10)
No bait and no net. Deep sea dive? (1)
No. In city. (5)
No throw this. (3)
No time. (13)
Nospine?: (Inveterate?) (5)
Okkulaklaus?: What about Klaus’s glasses? (3)
Or Eutrema. (12)
Or the triplets? (2)
Our parents. (12)
Ours too. (13)
Parents? (1)
Peer pressure (9)
Pellucid theatrics: (Your disguise isn’t working.) (6)
Perhaps (4)
Phearst: We should rescue her promptly. (13)
Plethora? (12)
Poppycock. (2)
Push Olaf overboard. (1)
Pyrrhonic?: How can you be sure of such a thing based on our clothing? (4)
Quid pro quo?: (If we help you, will you help Kit?) (8)
Razoo: You’re the one not to be trusted. (12)
Safe. (8)
Safe here! (13)
Same boat. (3)
Service à la Russe (9): Even with the simplest of ingredients, I could prepare an extremely elaborate meal (9)
Six six seven. (9)
Soubise!: Dinner is served! (1)
Split up. (13)
Stockpot (13)
Storm scavawha? (2)
Takk: (Good snake, Viper!) (7)
Taylit: Let’s follow the reptile and see where it heads. (9)
Tell us first. (7)
The shelf is flooding. (13)
Trahison des clercs! You’re forgetting about the quick-acting poison in the fungus! (12)
Tuber? (8)
Tumurchap (12)
Unless. (1)
Vaporetto? (13)
Viper. (8)
We know it. (13)
We’ll give you apples if you help. (13)
What? Who? (2)
What you mean? (7)
What you mean what you mean what I mean? (11)
Whatya fixin? (4)
Whisk. (3)
Who are you? (10)
Words fail me. (9)
Worried. (7)
Yaw: Ishmael’s story is
Yes. (6)
Yomhashoah: Never again. (7)
Yuck. (3)
GEOGRAPHY:
Briny Beach (m) (1)
Hotel Denouement (m) (1)
Lake Lachrymose (m) (1)
The island (2)
Caligari Carnival (m) (3)
Mortmain Mountains (m) (3)
Prufrock Preparatory School (m) (4)
Village of Fowl Devotees (m) (4)
Lucky Smells Lumbermill (m) (5)
Fountain of Victorious Finance (m) (5)
667 Dark Avenue (m) (5)
Finite Forest (m) (9)
Heimlich Hospital (m) (9)
Queequeg (m) (9)
Lucky Smells Melon Farm (10)
Café Salmonella (m) (10)
The Bistro Smelt (10)
Anwhistle Aquatics (m) (10)
Lousy Lane (m) (12)
FOODOLOGY:
ceviche (4)
cold salad of white beans, cherry tomatoes, and fresh basil, mixed together with lime juice, olive oil, and cayenne pepper
Turkish Coffee (8)
Oysters Rockefeller (8)
Onion soup (8)
Prosciutto (9)
Star anise tea (10)
Spices: sage, oregano, paprika, parsley, garlic salt, turmeric, nutmeg, marjoram, powdered lemon peel, salt, pepper, vindaloo rub, chipotle peppers, tarragon (12)
Curried peanut soup (12)
Gingerbread (12)
applesauce (13)
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Post by Hermes on Jun 3, 2019 14:11:50 GMT -5
I continue to hold that the line about the sugar bowl actually tells us nothing new; Klaus is using 'schism' to mean 'a big fight', and the big fight, which is happening now, certainly involves the sugar bowl.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Jun 3, 2019 15:14:18 GMT -5
It's especially baffling that this actual new information on the sugar bowl comes in a book in which the sugar bowl is no longer relevant. Concerning the Sugar Bowl and the Schism, there is Hermes 's point, and there is the fact that Klaus may indeed have accidentally confused the capital-S Schism and the more recent sub-schism due to incomplete data. But if we take it at face value, then… Carrie E. Abelabudite, why exactly couldn't the same Sugar Bowl that was at the centre of the original Schism also have been involved in the much more recent scandal involving Esmé and Beatrice? Indeed, if the Sugar Bowl is an antique, an artifact of the original Schism, then that may make some sense of its later Squalid use; mayhaps the reason it was such an ideal hiding place for whatever is inside it is not that it is an inherently special bowl, but that it is such a sacred relic of V.F.D. history that no member would dare destroy it, and/or that if it was seen being treated with special care by its current holder, nobody would think anything of it and guess that there was something even more vital inside. How and why this "antique Sugar Bowl" would originally have been involved in the Schism, I can't tell you, but the wealth of plausible scenario is much greater if we stop constricting ourself to the necessity of the Bowl's contents being the important bit. How's that sound? or him forgetting exactly what he had already established in the previous book - see above in the case of the Baudelaires' morality, too. Concerning the circumstances of the Baudelaries' burning down the Hotel, I don't think he would 'forget' something this important, per se. But could it be that in an earlier draft of TPP they were much more culpable than in the finished product, and revisions be damned, this is the version that stuck in Handler's mind ever since? It is not unheard of for authors to forget, at the end of the harrowing experience of editing and publishing, which bits made it to the printed version and which didn't. |
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Post by Dante on Jun 3, 2019 16:28:30 GMT -5
Concerning the circumstances of the Baudelaries' burning down the Hotel, I don't think he would 'forget' something this important, per se. But could it be that in an earlier draft of TPP they were much more culpable than in the finished product, and revisions be damned, this is the version that stuck in Handler's mind ever since? It is not unheard of for authors to forget, at the end of the harrowing experience of editing and publishing, which bits made it to the printed version and which didn't. Now this I think is reasonable to propose; though one might also say that Handler tended to have various plans and anticipations for each book before he wrote it of which he would tend to have to throw roughly half out - so TPP was originally supposed to see the Baudelaires return to Olaf's house, where they would find certain information which they ended up discovering in the arboretum in The End (according to Handler). There was also a very early official synopsis for TGG on retailer websites which mentioned hypochondria as a part of the book; my theory is that, in an earlier draft or plan of TGG, Sunny (or whoever else happened to be infected) would transpire not really to have been contaminated with the Medusoid Mycelium, but merely believed themself to be so. It's easy to imagine this plot point being replaced with the real thing on the grounds that they would necessarily look identical in the build-up, for a better pay-off. |
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Post by Foxy on Jun 4, 2019 7:51:06 GMT -5
I wouldn't be able to buy into Sunny being a hypochondriac. Widdershins, maybe. I could see the plot going somewhere with that, like Widdershins agrees to give the Baudelaires to Count Olaf because Count Olaf promises to cure Widdershins of an illness Widdershins does not even have.
So if the Baudelaires returned to Count Olaf's house, do you think he would have had the book that was on the island?
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Jun 4, 2019 11:32:49 GMT -5
So if the Baudelaires returned to Count Olaf's house, do you think he would have had the book that was on the island? One struggles to think of how it would have ended up in his possession, since he appears not to know about the Island when he washes up there in TE. Though he could of course be pretending not to recognize it, or just failing to recognize it because he's kind of an idiot for all his malice because so much time has passed. Certainly, if we assume Olaf was once on the Island, it makes sense of a few other things — such as and his scheme of dropping the Quagmires on "an island" which seems to be foreshadowing TE, or "again". |
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Post by Foxy on Jun 5, 2019 11:41:51 GMT -5
Uncle Algernon, I laughed so hard at the crossed-out portion of your post! I definitely think Count Olaf had been to the island before, and I also definitely think he completely forgot he had been there. This could partially be due to copious amounts of alcohol consumption throughout his life, and partially be due to his egocentrism.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Jun 5, 2019 14:56:36 GMT -5
So if the Baudelaires returned to Count Olaf's house, do you think he would have had the book that was on the island? One struggles to think of how it would have ended up in his possession, since he appears not to know about the Island when he washes up there in TE. Though he could of course be pretending not to recognize it, or just failing to recognize it because he's kind of an idiot for all his malice because so much time has passed. Certainly, if we assume Olaf was once on the Island, it makes sense of a few other things — such as and his scheme of dropping the Quagmires on "an island" which seems to be foreshadowing TE, or "again". Uncle Algernon, I laughed so hard at the crossed-out portion of your post! I definitely think Count Olaf had been to the island before, and I also definitely think he completely forgot he had been there. This could partially be due to copious amounts of alcohol consumption throughout his life, and partially be due to his egocentrism. I get the sense that Olaf hadn't necessarily been to the Island before, but he had heard of it, although Ishmael's rule might have been different from what he knew about it. I think he just doesn't know which island he is on when they first get shipwrecked, but then figures it out before the Baudelaires next speak to him. Chapter ThreeI absolutely love the segment about words with different meanings. 'The bears bear hard hard yarn yarns' never fails to make me laugh. '"It depends on how you look at it," Klaus said,' (p53) I love this motif. 'They would have mentioned [...] their own comrades, from Justice Strauss, who turned out to be more useful than they had first thought, to Fiona, who turned out to be more treacherous than they imagined.' (p60) When the Baudelaires met Justice Strauss, they thought she would be very useful as a way to escape Olaf, and, despite how hard she tried, she ended up not helping them very much in either TBB or TPP. Then, I'm not sure if it's fair to call Fiona treacherous. Chapter Four
Most of the names of the islanders are fairly obvious references, or else easy to look up, but there are a few I'm confused about: Finn (could this be a reference to Huckleberry Finn? It's not that intuitive compared to the other references), Willa, Mr Pitcairn (is this just a reference to the Pitcairn Islands?) Professor Fletcher, and Sadie Bellamy (I see in the character name thread that 'Bellamy' was the name of a pirate, but I don't get what 'Sadie' is a reference to, if anything). 'When I was shipwrecked recently,' (p87) Was this when Lemony ended up on the Island? If so, it must have changed quite a lot since the Baudelaires were there. Chapter Five
'the trick is to succumb to enough pressure that you do not drive your peers away, but not so much that you end up in a situation in which you are dead or otherwise uncomfortable. This is a difficult trick, and most people never master it, and end up dead or uncomfortable at least once during their lives.' (p95-6) This is one of my favourite quotes in the series. 'The days passed,' (p98) First of all, this is interesting, since it is fairly dissimilar to the more recent books that get right into the action, and in the vein of the early books where the Baudelaires have some time to get used to their new surroundings before Count Olaf shows up. Secondly, how long are they on the Island before Count Olaf shows up? This seems longer than the few days that typically seem to be the case - maybe a couple of weeks or so. This is the first book since TAA where you can really stretch out the time scale of the series. In a lot of ways, the Island seems very close to a utopia, yet, even at this point, the cracks are visible. 'After a few days,' (p100) Okay, so it can't actually be that long between when the Baudelaires arrive on the Island and the next storm. Maybe it is the five or six days that seem typical of pre-Olaf life in the early books. '"Not so long ago," [Violet] said, "we were desperate to reach the last safe place by Thursday. Now, everywhere we look is safe, and we have no idea what day it is."' (p102) An important moment of perspective. We really are far away from the past few books. I really like the counterintuitive tings the Baudelaires miss the most. I love the Fountain of Victorious Finance flashback. 'Sunny was talking about an afternoon long ago, during an unusually hot autumn in the city.' (p105) If Sunny had been '"just a few weeks old"' (p104) when this happened, her birthday must be in, say, late August or early September. If she had just turned one when the series starts (which makes sense, given the number of pre-fire family outings she experienced set against her not being able to walk or talk much at the start of the series and not having a birthday), this could help in dating the series. If it started in September, it must be around May or June now, according to my timeline. What was Beatrice trying to find out from the weather report and naval map? Not sure who the pretzel vendor is, but she must have given the photo to Esme. Is the 'playwright' in this story Olaf? And who is the 'lost puppy'? R, maybe? Chapter Six
'At this point, you may find yourself recognizing all of the sad hallmarks of the Baudelaire orphans' sad history.' (p116) I love the way this is lamp-shaded here, especially given that this is the book that subverts all the previous tropes the most. Interesting that Olaf doesn't bother to disguise his ankle. Of course, Kit also has an ankle tattoo, so there's no reason why he should need to, but in all his previous disguises, how he covered up his tattoo was the most important part. I guess this disguise doesn't hide his eyebrow either, although his eyebrow is also visible in his 'Shirley' disguise. Has Mrs Caliban met Kit before? It seems like she might have. '"I've always wanted to meet a herpetologist," said Friday, who of course did not know the whole story of Monty and his murder.' (p130) I never noticed before just how much the idea of 'the whole story' is emphasised this early on in the book. It's even one of the first things Ishmael asks the Baudelaires after they meet him. '"There's so much of the world I"m missing by living here." "The world is a wicked place," Count Olaf said quietly,' (p130-1) This exchange seems really important. The last few books, TPP in particular, have tried to prove that Count Olaf is right. Yet, here, we also see that Friday is - that she does miss out on a lot living so far away from danger. The moment Olaf is forded into the cage is a powerful one. The plot of TPP centred on trying and failing to bring Olaf to justice. Here, though, Ish and the other islanders can force him into a birdcage just like that. This chapter ends with another Hobson's choice. |
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Post by Dante on Jun 5, 2019 16:32:09 GMT -5
Where were the triangular picture frame and the brass lamp in the shape of the fish? (9) Esmé mentions triangular picture frames as an in item in TEE (p. 120); but the brass lamps in the shape of fish are from the Prufrock library (TAA p. 52). Additionally, Uncle Monty's house had brass lamps, and the Baudelaires found one in Olaf's trunk in TCC, and of course there are the infamously absent lamps mistakenly sent to Hal that are referenced in TVV's Kind Editor letter but never appear. Most of the names of the islanders are fairly obvious references, or else easy to look up, but there are a few I'm confused about: Finn (could this be a reference to Huckleberry Finn? It's not that intuitive compared to the other references), Willa, Mr Pitcairn (is this just a reference to the Pitcairn Islands?) Professor Fletcher, and Sadie Bellamy (I see in the character name thread that 'Bellamy' was the name of a pirate, but I don't get what 'Sadie' is a reference to, if anything). I had a feeling they'd all been accounted for before, and digging through 667 eventually pointed me to Wikipedia's character list as featuring a comprehensive documentation of the prevailing theories on the islanders' names. It's hard to imagine Olaf speaking in such a quiet and sombre manner; reflective, even. It's easy to dismiss Olaf in The End as being at his most insane, but I also think it presents us with many new facets to his character. |
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jun 6, 2019 6:43:00 GMT -5
I think this book is strong evidence that Lemony was not writing the story of the Baudelaire siblings during the time of the events narrated.
After all, how could Lemony know what happened inside the boat in Chapter 1?
Why would not Lemony help Kit when she was close to dying?
Where has Lemony been hidden during the year in which they have been imprisoned on the island? Why did not Lemony Snicket ever introduce himself to the children?
But it is important to understand that realizing these details generates a back-to-back chain reaction.
Lemony could only know about what happened on the boat through the Baudelaire siblings themselves. But Lemony did not interview the Baudelaire siblings. A good source of information is the book the Baudelaire sibglins left on the island, called A series of unfortunate events. In fact, the name of the series of books "Lemony Snicket's A series of unfortunate Events" is derived from the book "The series of unfortunate Events" that was left on the island and contains in part the story we know told from the Baudelaire's point of view .
This explains why the story of ASOUE is narrated as if there was a camera filming what the Baudelaires saw or heard. In fact, the narration even contains what they thought.
When you associate this with the fact that Lemony was only confirming events during his search for TBB according to the notes, it is clear that Lemony had a source of information from the Baudelaire siblings. (I know those interviews are pretty funny, but remember that Lemony believes the best way to hide truths is to tell everyone pretending to be a joke. It's something like hiding something far ahead of everyone.)
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Post by Foxy on Jun 6, 2019 8:24:10 GMT -5
'"It depends on how you look at it," Klaus said,' (p53) I love this motif. I think this is kind of a theme of the series, along with "chef's salad." I would agree, it seems like they are there for a long time. Plus, Count Olaf gets hungry out on the coastal shelf. Maybe she was trying to find Lemony when he was shipwrecked. It's hard to imagine Olaf speaking in such a quiet and sombre manner; reflective, even. It's easy to dismiss Olaf in The End as being at his most insane, but I also think it presents us with many new facets to his character. Is Olaf more insane, or is he finally himself? Where has Lemony been hidden during the year in which they have been imprisoned on the island? Why did not Lemony Snicket ever introduce himself to the children? What do you mean by this? |
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jun 6, 2019 13:24:17 GMT -5
Where has Lemony been hidden during the year in which they have been imprisoned on the island? Why did not Lemony Snicket ever introduce himself to the children? What do you mean by this? I want to make it clear that it does not make sense for me to believe that Lemony was on the island during the events on the island. This means that Lemony did not witness the events on the island. He needed another source of information to know what happened on the island. If so it was in the TE book, this is a small piece of evidence that it was so for all ASOUE books. In fact, this was the first clue I followed to do my strange interpretation ... When I was in the prime of my youth and I read about the island's book, I realized: "Lemony wrote Asoue after the events ... After have found this book, and that is why he knows so much about what the Baudelaire siblings lived, even when they were alone in some environments... " Then I thought ... But wait ... What about that letter in TSS? And that's how it all began... |
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