|
Post by R. on Aug 23, 2020 10:16:30 GMT -5
This may sound really weird at first, but think about it. They are both ruthlessly determined individuals who, as Elllington said, will do anything and everything to achieve their goals. They are both notably tall, with dark hair, and in Snicket’s descriptions of them both, he pays a lot of attention to their fingers and fingernails. They both take very good care of their appearance. Their names both begin with E, and their surnames are both obscure English vocabulary words. They are also both very talented at disguising themselves. Perhaps the reason Esmé holds a grudge against the Snickets is her father’s murder. Personality-wise, they are charismatic yet deceitful and manipulative individuals who use others to further their own goals. Think about it.
|
|
|
Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 23, 2020 11:17:00 GMT -5
I have to say that this is an interesting way of thinking, and that if that were true it would be a great Plot Twist. However, I think the reason for the similarities is because the same person created both characters. But to significant differences: Esme's interest in what is in and what is out is very characteristic, and if it were really the author's intention to indicate that they are the same people, I believe he would give a clearer indication of this including, perhaps, some similar way of speaking.
|
|
|
Post by R. on Aug 23, 2020 11:22:34 GMT -5
Just because it is characteristic, it doesn’t mean it was an interest she had as a child. Her way of speaking could have changed as she grew older and moved to the city. I imagine she changed a lot following the death of her father.
|
|
|
Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 23, 2020 12:04:19 GMT -5
Yes, this is a good counter-counter-argument. In fact, even Josephine and Lemony himself have significant differences between the adult and young versions of them. But do you think Daniel Handler would in fact miss out on the opportunity to make it more evident that they are the same person? I mean, that would be a really big plot twist that would have been wasted without a clear indication. But who knows, he saved that for the next book, Poison for Breakfeast. It would be nice that ATWQ would become Esmé's origin story.
|
|
|
Post by R. on Aug 23, 2020 12:29:07 GMT -5
It would, I’m so excited for Poison For Breakfast, aren’t you? Also, Daniel Handler is known for being vague and not obvious in his writing, so he wouldn’t necessarily make it clearer that they were the same person.
|
|
|
Post by FileneNGottlin on Aug 23, 2020 20:33:24 GMT -5
My first though when I saw this was “That doesn’t make any sense, Ellington only drinks coffee, and Esme owns a tea set!” But it still seems unlikely. The fact that there isn’t evidence against it doesn’t count as evidence for it.
|
|
|
Post by Christmas Chief on Aug 24, 2020 12:57:52 GMT -5
Interesting connections, R.! If Ellington is Esme, do you see any clues as to what could have happened to her between ATWQ and ASOUE to bring out her darker qualities?
|
|
|
Post by R. on Aug 24, 2020 13:43:24 GMT -5
Probably just grief over her father’s death and a desire for revenge against Lemony. I personally believe that she fled to the city, where she was found and taken in by Count Olaf.
|
|
|
Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 24, 2020 14:52:56 GMT -5
Probably just grief over her father’s death and a desire for revenge against Lemony. I personally believe that she fled to the city, where she was found and taken in by Count Olaf. I may not believe it canonically, but I'm sure it would be a great fanfic. I can already imagine the beginning of her relationship with Kit, until she finds out that Kit was Lemony's sister, and then devise a plan to influence the death of Count Olaf's parents and frame Kit and Lemony, and then she decides to change her name ... It would be nice to read something like that. Have you ever thought about publishing fanfic?
|
|
|
Post by R. on Aug 24, 2020 15:13:07 GMT -5
Yes! I am totally writing that!
|
|
|
Post by counto on Aug 25, 2020 5:13:55 GMT -5
Can't wait to read about it
|
|
|
Post by R. on Oct 28, 2020 5:35:05 GMT -5
Just found new evidence for the theory in the third book! When Lemony sees Ellington on the wall, she is described as wearing a dress that was ‘the colour of the sunset’ the colours normally associated with sunsets are reds, oranges and yellows, and maybe a bit of grey because of the clouds. These are the same colours as Esmé’s dress in TSS. Also, when Ellington leads Lemony to the fire pond, the scene is unsettlingly similar to the scene prior to Esmé pushing the Baudelaires down the elevator shaft in TEE. Coincidences, or deliberate references?
|
|
|
Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Oct 28, 2020 6:31:42 GMT -5
I hate to be like Dante, but being coincidences or references, they are still not evidence in this case, don't you agree?
|
|
|
Post by Marlowe on Oct 29, 2020 17:06:17 GMT -5
I'm sorry, this is just plain silly. This may sound really weird at first, but think about it. They are both ruthlessly determined individuals who, as Elllington said, will do anything and everything to achieve their goals. They are both notably tall, with dark hair, and in Snicket’s descriptions of them both, he pays a lot of attention to their fingers and fingernails. They both take very good care of their appearance. Their names both begin with E, and their surnames are both obscure English vocabulary words. They are also both very talented at disguising themselves. This is a laundry list of distortions, vague generalizations, and superficial commonalities that could be broadly applied to any pair of people. When/where is Esme ever described as having dark hair? When/where is "taking good care of her appearance" ever considered a major trait of Ellington's? Jean Lucio and Jacques Snicket both have names that begin with the letter J. Oh my God, should we consider that they're the same person, too? Mr. Poe and Marlowe both have the same names as famous writers. Oh my God, could it be that Poe is me and I am him? You see where I'm going with this. Perhaps the reason Esmé holds a grudge against the Snickets is her father’s murder. Personality-wise, they are charismatic yet deceitful and manipulative individuals who use others to further their own goals. Think about it. Sigh. Let's talk about manipulation first. Ellington uses her grief over her father to court sympathy, making her appear as a devastated daughter just trying to do the right thing. Esme never resorts to any such tactics. The most/only notable time she did something like this was her charming of the freaks, and her manipulation was markedly more theatrical than Ellington's - coming very close to outright flirting with Kevin as she kisses him on the nose, dabbing at eyes with a hankie, putting on a I LOVE FREAKS dress. EF would never be this blatant and obvious. Ellington is calculating and thinks out plans for herself. Esme is nowhere near as clever, instead mainly depending on Olaf to carry out most of the planning. She is more content to lounge around and indulge in what is "in". Despite the many questionable things she does, Ellington never appears to be rude, obnoxious, or condescending. It's part of her manipulation. Esme is all three in spades, and she barely bothers to appear as anything else in her disguises/manipulation. She was even noticeably condescending in the aforementioned scene from TCC. Just found new evidence for the theory in the third book! When Lemony sees Ellington on the wall, she is described as wearing a dress that was ‘the colour of the sunset’ the colours normally associated with sunsets are reds, oranges and yellows, and maybe a bit of grey because of the clouds. These are the same colours as Esmé’s dress in TSS. Also, when Ellington leads Lemony to the fire pond, the scene is unsettlingly similar to the scene prior to Esmé pushing the Baudelaires down the elevator shaft in TEE. Coincidences, or deliberate references? Definitely coincidences. Full quote from TSS, emphasis mine: "The dress was made of layers upon layers of shiny cloth, in different shades of yellow, orange, and red, all cut in fierce triangular shapes so that each layer seemed to cut into the next, and rising from the shoulders of the dress were enormous piles of black lace, sticking up into the air in strange curves." There is no similar description in ?3. As for the comparison to the elevator scene in TEE, sorry, I must have missed the part where Ellington shoves Lemony into the pond as she cackles and reveals her real motivations for everything she's done. Oh wait. Probably just grief over her father’s death and a desire for revenge against Lemony. I personally believe that she fled to the city, where she was found and taken in by Count Olaf. You're saying that Hangfire's death alone is responsible for EF's wholesale personality change? That the murder was enough for Ellington's IQ took a massive drop, taking a bizarre interest in fashion out of nowhere, accumulating wealth sizable enough to purchase a large penthouse apartment, becoming the sixth-most important financial advisor in the city despite showing absolutely no interest or skill in that area previously? You could nearly rationalize it by saying she took this interest gradually over the years, but what would be the thread that links these hypothetical past/future versions of Esme/Ellington together? This depends far too heavily on speculative, fill-in-the-blanks conjecture. I've seen people change after the death of a loved one. But this would have to be some supernatural, Freaky Friday salsa for a change this immense to happen. And what of Esme's extensive history with the VFD, as documented in LS:TUA, The Beatrice Letters, the main series itself? She's talked in the books about her hatred for the noble, fire-stopping, well-read volunteers, has she not? What would that have to do with "revenge against Lemony?" So let's stop this now, it's getting too silly. April Fool's was months ago.
|
|
|
Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Oct 29, 2020 19:45:42 GMT -5
Marlowe , did you happen to see Roxy222 in the interview with Daniel Handler?
|
|