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Post by R. on Oct 30, 2020 1:27:46 GMT -5
I’m sorry Marlowe , but the only silly person here is you. Sardonic Series and Wretchedly Wrong Questions are places for calm debate, not sarcasm and insulting each other. In your ‘debunking’ of my theory, you call Esmé rude and condescending, yet here you are talking rude and condescending rubbish at me. I have looked through your posts, and you have never posted a single theory in your life. What do you know? Re-read ATWQ with my theory in mind, you may be surprised.
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Post by Dante on Oct 30, 2020 4:11:34 GMT -5
Allow me to intervene before this develops further. R. is correct regarding the presentation of Marlowe's counter-argument; while I agree with the criticism he presents purely insofar as the text goes, the personal aggression with which it was expressed is unwarranted. I'm aware that things in this forum sometimes do get heated, and it can on rare occasions be difficult to remain composed where a theory seems more a function of personal obliviousness; I have been guilty of that, too. But I don't think roxy222's idea warrants this behaviour, and I would like to see a retraction or apology for the aggressive elements in Marlowe's response. The points stand, but not the manner in which they were made. roxy222, for your own part, I understand in the circumstances why you responded in kind, but targeting Marlowe's posting history is unnecessary and falls short of your own standard. Please remain civil whilst discussing your theories. Interrogate the text, not each other.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Oct 30, 2020 6:25:23 GMT -5
Good intervention, Dante. Dante and I can be a little aggressive towards each other at times, but we have a history together. Before I started posting theories, I talked to him in private messages, and I still do from time to time. We know what offends and doesn't offend each other, and at least we try to avoid words that would affect our dignity as people. At least we try.What I mean is that establishing a relationship of rivalry does not mean exchanging offenses. Anyone can offend another person and there is no merit in that. A true rival is someone you respect in the first place, and in the second place you try to defeat him using the rules of some kind of game (even if they are unofficial rules). The rivalry between theorists and counter-theorists is valid. The theorist has the advantage of great imagination. The counter-theorist has the advantage of destructive argument. But if someone attacks the other person's dignity, the game is out of the rules (unless it is previously agreed how far "offenses" can go). PS - And Marlowe, if you had seen R. in the interview, you would know that she has the courage to face Daniel Handler himself with all the determination and strength and put him against the wall. She will never fall without shooting before. That's why I'm a fan of hers. Even without agreeing with her, I would never be aggressive against her. She could find my address and burn my house. And I like my home.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 30, 2020 6:47:46 GMT -5
In a way I would love to believe that E and E are the same person, because it would help to make sense of the sugar bowl: given the connection between it and the Great Unknown hinted in TGG, there's some attractiveness in the view that it contains the eggs of the Bombinating Beast, and Ellington could claim to be the owner of that, as her father discovered it. (While in the show E only owns the bowl, not its contents, I've never been convinced this is true in the books.)
However, it seems to me that their personalities are just too dissimilar. So I prefer the theory that Ellington is Madam di Lustro (who we know has a 'true identity'.) I also find some attractiveness in the view that Ellington is Fiona's mother - there does seem a similarity in perosnalities there - but I suspect Fernald's age might cause problems for that. (Actually, do we know that Madam di Lustro isn't F and F's mother?)
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Post by Dante on Oct 30, 2020 10:20:28 GMT -5
So I prefer the theory that Ellington is Madam di Lustro (who we know has a 'true identity'.) I also find some attractiveness in the view that Ellington is Fiona's mother - there does seem a similarity in perosnalities there - but I suspect Fernald's age might cause problems for that. (Actually, do we know that Madam di Lustro isn't F and F's mother?) Do we know that Madame diLustro isn't Fernald and Fiona's mother? We do not, but that is with the caveat that we know very little about Madame diLustro. There are only two references to her, I believe, in the entire series: TRR p. 27, in which Snicket describes her as "a good friend, an excellent detective, and a fine cook, but she flies into a range if you arrive even five minutes later than her invitation states"; and the "Madame diLustro, I believe I've discovered your true identity!" line from page 92 of... well well well, TGG.
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Post by R. on Oct 30, 2020 10:22:46 GMT -5
TRR p. 27, in which Snicket describes her as "a good friend, an excellent detective, and a fine cook, but she flies into a range if you arrive even five minutes later than her invitation states" Hermes , that sounds even less like Ellington than Esmé does, according to some of you.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Oct 30, 2020 10:28:34 GMT -5
She was in disguise. She was pretending to be someone else with a different personality. It is difficult to establish any evidence of similarity from this. Madame Lulu had a very different personality than Olivia Taliban, even though they were the same person.
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Post by Hermes on Oct 30, 2020 15:07:03 GMT -5
Jean Lucio: Just what I was going to say! We do not know Madam di Lustro well enough to make a real assessment of her character, unlike Esme whom we follow closely over a number of books.
But when you mention Olivia, do you mean in the show? We know nothing about her, apart from the Lulu persona, in the book. (And it's Caliban, not Taliban.)
Dante: TGG introduces (apparently) four mysterious offstage female figures: Mrs Widdershins, Madam di Lustro, the Duchess, and the swimming woman. We are strongly tempted to believe that there are in fact fewer than four people here: but which are identical and which different is hard to say.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Oct 31, 2020 10:46:00 GMT -5
Oh, Caliban... Maybe it was failed to automatic rapid broker. Or maybe I confused some organizations ...
But the personality of Olivia Caliban in the books seems clearly enough to say that it is different from Madame Lulu. I mean, Olivia does not speak with accent, while Lulu speaks with accent. Olivia seems untouraging and medurous, while Lulu seems confident and even tored. Olivia seems to feel a little remorse as Lulu seems to me a cold person.
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Post by Marlowe on Oct 31, 2020 16:24:29 GMT -5
Yes, R., re-reading my post I have realized that adopting such an antagonistic tone was unproductive. I may still disagree with your position, but there was no excuse for condescension on my part. My apologies, and I hope we can both move forward from this incident.
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Post by R. on Dec 31, 2020 12:44:46 GMT -5
Oh! I just realised something. In SYBIS, someone mentions that Hangfire had a particular dislike of VFD. Also, Ellington immediately recognises the insignia and creates aliases by anagrammatising her name, a traditional VFD code. This implies that she knows about VFD, and is most likely against it. Try disputing this chunk of evidence, Marlowe!
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 31, 2020 13:31:33 GMT -5
Well ... I have to admit that yes, that is a reasonably very good argument. Congratulations Roxy222. Although the argument: "Eligton Feint belongs to VFD. Esmé belongs to VFD, so Esmé is Eligton" works just as well as "men have legs. Chickens have legs. Soon men are chickens." However, you establish that Eligton comes from VFD creates a valid doubt. It is the union of valid doubts that makes things more interesting. Both have the same initial. Both seem to have some background in some way connected to Kit Snicket. Both seem to be the same age group.
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Post by R. on Dec 31, 2020 13:33:10 GMT -5
But with all the rest of the evidence... One thing may work like that, but with everything combined it makes it quite likely. Optimism is my Phil-osophy , did you see my PM? I need help.
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Amber Rivers
Reptile Researcher
An AU where Violet Baudelaire grew up and became Huntress. Hear me out.
Posts: 25
Likes: 4
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Post by Amber Rivers on Mar 12, 2021 0:08:57 GMT -5
Interesting connections, R. ! If Ellington is Esme, do you see any clues as to what could have happened to her between ATWQ and ASOUE to bring out her darker qualities? I think her rage, grief, and loathing for VFD made her the way we know Esme Squalor. However, we know that Esme is/was a member of VFD given her relationship with Beatrice and everyone else. It could have been that Ellington found a way to infiltrate the organization (I still can't think of why and how, though) although I was thinking would that go against the process of recruitment of VFD? How old is Ellington in the books again? Although, I like this thought, I still think Ellington and Esme are two different people and, if they have met, they could have been chummy at best.
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Post by Dante on Mar 12, 2021 4:19:59 GMT -5
How old is Ellington in the books again? About Lemony's age; a little older than he is, or maybe just a little taller. (?1, pp. 130-131)
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