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Post by the panopticountolaf on Dec 30, 2021 9:51:58 GMT -5
I think they both survived(this is actually implied in LSTUA)but didn't see each other again. I thought it was TBL where that was implied? In BB to LS #1 Lemony's made that note about Beatrice's "true identity", but I never picked up on anything in TUA. |
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 30, 2021 11:10:57 GMT -5
I think I'm going to cry... After so long is anyone really interested in this without my having encouraged the subject? It's a shame the other two people who could contradict me aren't here. That's why I need to be more careful when I talk about it... It's quite a responsibility now.
So I will try to be as neutral as Wikipedia. (This is boring, but it's better than talking lightly in the hope that someone will restrain me.)
Some fans believe that LSTUA should be considered as canonical and part of the same fictional universe as asoue. However, some fans are more supportive of the idea that LSTUA contains elements that indicate that Daniel Handler has changed his views on his own history from the time of LSTUA's publication to the time of TE's publication. Regardless of what is right or wrong, it is almost unanimous among fans that turning to LSTUA to better understand the universe of asoue is a good idea, although in doing so we often separate ourselves with apparent contradictions, both within history and conceptual contradictions. Understanding the nature of these contradictions is something every fan should do, whether he decides to resolve these contradictions through hypotheses or theories or he decides to simply accept that they exist.
That being said, one of the apparent contradictions found at LSTUA is the fact that Prufrock Prep continued to function for many years after the publication of asoue's first books, and that his best-known teachers continued to work there for a few years until there was no morep teachers qualified to teach. According to LSTUA, a few years after TRR's publication, Lemony was at Prufrock Prep, where he received information about an Olaf henchman who was searching for Uncle Monty's surviving reptiles. When Lemony went there, the school was still functioning. And as I said, the school continued to function until Mrs. Bass was arrested.
Asoue's chronology, however, makes it clear that the entire main story of asoue takes place in just one year. (TE chapter 14 covers 1 additional year). So, if the story assembled in LSTUA is canonical, we would have to admit that Mrs. Bass and Mr. Remora survived the Hotel D fire and Nero also survived and went back to work at Prufrock Prep. In this case, Ms. Bass would have gone unpunished until she was finally arrested some time later and only then did the school fail. The point is that, if LSTUA's reassembled history is right, Carmelita also survived the fire, in which case her parents wrote to Nero later in the aftermath of the fire talking about the dangers of some books. In this case, Miss K cannot be Kit Snicket, as she must be someone else, as Kit died shortly after the D hotel fire.
Regarding Esmé, we realize that the one who managed to find one of the surviving reptiles was Esmé's fan club. This indicates that Esmé may have survived the Hotel burning, and those women who managed to get the remains of the mamba-du-mal were Esmé's new troupe. Some point to the fact that the henchman's letter was not addressed to Olaf, but to Genius, which is not a false name used by Olaf at any point in the books. Some claim that Genius may be another villainous person who didn't live with Uncle Monty, so he was unable to give the henchman more useful information on how to find the reptiles. Based on this, some believe that Genius could be another name for Esmé, although this is just a hypothesis without strong theoretical support.
According to LSTUA, Carmelita wrote an autobiography in which she talked about a librarian who shared the same characteristics as Lemony's companion. Thus, some claim that that librarian went to work at Prufrock Prep only after the return of the surviving teachers from the Hotel D fire, since no librarian is named at the time of the main events described in TAA. Coupled with the fact that at the time of writing TAA Prufrock Prep had been closed for many years, some deduce that Carmelita survived the fire, returned to Prufrock Prep, met the librarian, and only some time later did she write his fully authorized autobiography.
In any case, it's almost a consensus among fans that Daniel Handler hadn't thought of the plot involving the Hotel D. During the writing of TSS he apparently decided that the fate of some important characters would be uncertain even for Lemony Snicket. Many claim that if the fate of characters in TSS had definitive evidence about their survival or not, that would be a conceptual contradiction between the evidence and the author's desire. Both through what is written in TE and through what has been said (or rather, what has not been said) by the author in interviews, Daniel Handler preferred to leave the true fate of important characters open. But for this to be so, a relatively new current of thought has emerged in which the following moderate idea is defended: "we prefer to consider LSTUA as a book that has its own universe and its own timeline, which may at times be identical to the main universe of asoue but that at times is different." In this "LSTUA universe" there was no fire at Hotel D, and Kit did not die and Esmé and Carmelita are still alive. In the main universe of asoue, Kit has died, and Esmé and Carmelita's fate is uncertain.
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Post by the panopticountolaf on Dec 30, 2021 12:34:57 GMT -5
Masterfully done, Optimism is my Phil-osophy!  The only thing I'm confused about is the timeline involving Mrs. Bass's bank robbery. In Nero's letter to the Spats parents about Mrs. K's booklist, he mentions that "Mrs. Bass always seems to be taking a day off to take care of some business she has at the bank" (p. 130 in my US version) But in the timeline you propose Bass has already robbed MMM and is sitting on her fortune. (Maybe she's depositing her newfound wealth bit by bit so as not to attract attention.) Any thoughts on this? |
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 30, 2021 12:48:34 GMT -5
Yes, that's exactly it. In the timeline I propose, she has been going to the bank to steal money from time to time. She was only arrested after a few robberies. On the other hand, some who try to put Miss K's trip to Prufrock Prep before the main events recorded in TSS claim that Miss Bass has been going to the bank to plan a single robbery.
For me this interpretation of a single robbery doesn't quite fit the events described. Mrs Bass in TSS seems to have decided to steal the go with right after receiving the invitation regarding the party that was to be held at the hotel. The invitation she received apparently came from people who wanted to steal the guests' goods. So it seems that this invitation came after Olaf and Esmé found out about the last safe place. The way Nero's letter speaks of Mrs. Bass's visits to the bank seems to indicate that she went to the bank from time to time over a relatively long period. We need to remember that Nero himself was also invited to the event that would take place at Hotel D and that during the main events described in TSS, TGG and TPP, Carmelita was not at school. (I always figured the students were on winter break, so it was no wonder Carmelita who was studying at boarding school wasn't at school. Bruce is not a Prufrock Prep teacher...he himself should be on vacation from work involving reptiles). So, if we are going to consider LSTUA's reassembled history as canonical, everything leads us to believe that Miss K's going to Prufrock Prep to recruit two orphans happened after the main events described in TPP.
In this case, Miss K is not Kit. It is significant that at the building committee meeting, there are two people named after K. One of them is a neophyte. Kit was no neophyte at the time of the committee. So canonically there is another person whose name begins with K.
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Post by the panopticountolaf on Dec 30, 2021 13:13:07 GMT -5
The way Nero's letter speaks of Mrs. Bass's visits to the bank seems to indicate that she went to the bank from time to time over a relatively long period. Ahem. If I may...  Nero says that Mrs. Bass is "always" taking a day off to visit the bank — evidently so many visits that her ability to properly teach the students at Prufrock Prep is impaired. (Nero states that "Things are a bit slow at the school" and that the children have "no teachers... of any kind" even though Bass is still employed by the school) If Bass's bank robbery took place BEFORE The Penultimate Peril (and let's face it, how else is she getting those money bags?) and the letter to Mr. and Mrs. Spats is from after TPP, then what is Bass doing? Robbing another bank, of course! Mrs. Bass is a serial bank robber who has probably stolen from many banks all over ASOUEland. Why am I bringing this up in the middle of a discussion about Esme and Carmelita? Don't ask questions!! My theorizing muscles are sore from disuse, and I was feeling a mite argumentative. |
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 30, 2021 13:13:30 GMT -5
Of course, if Mrs. Bass had died in the fire, she wouldn't have been arrested for theft. (In general, dead people are not arrested). If she was arrested for theft, she needs to have returned to Prufrock Prep and continued teaching there after the fire, because Prufrock Prep only closed down after she was arrested. If she went back to teaching there, it's because there were still students there, and probably a vice principal. So, no matter what you believe: Ms. Bass is a survivor of the Hotel D fire.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Dec 30, 2021 13:22:00 GMT -5
The way Nero's letter speaks of Mrs. Bass's visits to the bank seems to indicate that she went to the bank from time to time over a relatively long period. Ahem. If I may...  Nero says that Mrs. Bass is "always" taking a day off to visit the bank — evidently so many visits that her ability to properly teach the students at Prufrock Prep is impaired. (Nero states that "Things are a bit slow at the school" and that the children have "no teachers... of any kind" even though Bass is still employed by the school) If Bass's bank robbery took place BEFORE The Penultimate Peril (and let's face it, how else is she getting those money bags?) and the letter to Mr. and Mrs. Spats is from after TPP, then what is Bass doing? Robbing another bank, of course! Mrs. Bass is a serial bank robber who has probably stolen from many banks all over ASOUEland. Why am I bringing this up in the middle of a discussion about Esme and Carmelita? Don't ask questions!! My theorizing muscles are sore from disuse, and I was feeling a mite argumentative. Yes, I believe that. Although she may be robbing the same bank over and over again, as Nero talks it seems to indicate that he knows which bank she is going to frequently. |
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