Rereading backwards

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

The introduction to chapter 12 is very good, and to this day I use Lemony's example in my personal life of finding a nasty insect in your food over and over as an example that no one gets used to bad things however small.

I didn't remember Olaf ripping the harpoon out of his stomach. It certainly killed him faster.

Ish claims he spent his life trying to protect the island from that deadly fungus. This shows once again that Ish arrived on the island at the time of Gregor A's schism.

From there the story follows the path on its own. We will witness how the Baudelaires managed to survive. But an interesting detail is that Lemony demonstrates to have a great knowledge of the Baudelaires' preferences regarding spices. Again I emphasize that this information can only have come from the Baudelaires who left it written on this island. Furthermore, the entire scene inside the aboretum in which the Baudelaires try to save their own lives is also a closed environment where specific dialogues and events took place without the presence of other people. How could Lemony know about these events? Only if they had been reported by the Baudelaires themselves and they left it registered on the island.

In any case, the scene of them looking for the right spice is really harrowing.

During the conversation Klaus talks about the teas being taken bitter. I believe, as he already said, that this custom was initiated for people to avoid being drugged.



It's touching when they decide to read the island's book, knowing it can be useless for lack of time. And Klaus says: "at least we die reading together."


Some observations Lemony wrote in this chapter serve as a prelude to Poison For Breakfast. Lemony talks about thinking about death, especially about thinking about it when you know death is almost certain soon.

"Most people do not choose their final circumstances, of course, and if the Baudelaires had been given the choice they would have liked to live to a very old age, which for all I know they may be doing." -

Well, that phrase makes it pretty clear to me that Lemony doesn't really know if the Baudelaires survived their departure from the island or not, but on the other hand he has no concrete reason to believe they died. It appears that Lemony simply ended his research in book 13, but there is no evidence that the reason he ended research here is because he believes the Baudelaires died shortly after leaving the island. This makes me wonder about the poster illustration in TBL: if that illustration represents a photograph that Lemony had access to, why is he still unsure about the Baudelaires' death, or rather, why doesn't he consider it strong evidence of are they dead? I will take a closer look at that poster when I reread TBL.

"Ishmael's fearmongering has stopped working on the passageway, even though we have a plethora of horseradish in the case of any emergency. We're trying a botanical hybrid through the tuberous canopy, which should bring safety to fruition despite its dangers to our associates in utero . Of course, in case we are banished, Beatrice is hiding a small amount in a vess—'"

So these words were written by Bertrand. They make it clear that Beatrice, Bertrand and Ish knew about the deadly MM fungus at the time the tunnel was being created. The logic was, "Even if the fungus gets to the island, we're protected. So we could continue with the tunnel if it weren't for Ish." Bertrand and Beatrice also knew about the dangers of the hybrid fruit to ferns. The fact that they have this information only confirms that they had already started their research off the island and knew about the side effects of the experiment.
So, the tunnel was more than a passageway to carry information: it was a means of dealing with the MM fungus.

The phraseology used also informs a lot about the way adults think about VFD at this time: they considered fetuses to be already associated. In fact, children weren't really free to choose whether or not to enter VFD. They were already associated with the organization even before they were born. And the final word certainly refers to the little boat that Bertrand had built, which was mentioned in some previous chapter. Evidently Daniel Handler put a red herring here to make some think it was the SB.

"We can't die here," Violet said, her voice only feeble her siblings could scarcely hear her. "Our parents saved our lives in this very room, many years ago, without even knowing it."

I remember using that phrase to show that one of the TBL letters came from the Baudelaires' mother. But I'll think about it better when I reread TBL.

And the chapter ends with a scene in which a serpent delivers a fruit to the Baudelaires. Many say this is a biblical reference, and I believe it really is. In The End there are many references to religion, and making references to events in the Garden of Eden seems to be something Daniel Handler had in mind. While the forbidden fruit that Adam and Eve ate brought death to them and to humanity, the fruit offered by Ink meant life to the Baudelaires. If we talk about symbolism here, that fruit was responsible for giving eternal life to Violet, Klaus and Sunny, as the open ending of asoue allows people for generations and generations to continue talking about these three characters. As long as there are people who remember them, they are alive, so to speak. Even after Daniel Handler's death, they will be alive.

[TheAsh]

Jun 14, 2021 18:39:05 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

Chapter 11 -

In chapter 11 the schism takes place. Apparently it's something really violent and worrisome. If there were weapons in the hands of some, it is possible that there would have been deaths. Interestingly, this schism only proves that even Ish's attempts to keep the peace on the island didn't work. Even if the Baudelaires had not reached the island, the schism would have taken place. The End has proven to be one of the few ASOUE books in which the plot advances independently of the Baudelaires' presence. And this is increasingly reinforced in the speeches of the characters and Lemony, who claim that the story of the Baudelaires is not the only story in the world. In TE they are more witnesses to the events. This is a counterpoint to their performance in TPP. In TPP their presence and decisions affected the fate of many people who were in the hotel. But on the island, they're just castaways who are less willing to change than many of the characters who were already there.

This time the cause of the schism is the question of whether it is worth sacrificing the fun that a non-peaceful life brings or not. Of course you could just talk about it, but it's hard to convince people of anything. This is even a religious issue. Erewhon came from a peaceful island, and ended up on another peaceful island. He wanted to venture out into the world, and take risks and have the fun of a free life as a reward. On the other hand, Alonso came had a troubled life involved in politics, and all he wanted was a quiet life. Is it worth leaving the peace promoted by a rigid religious community and venturing far away? It is interesting that the solution to the problem was well ahead of everyone: those who wanted a life full of adventure and problems should have the courage to venture out to sea and leave the island. But the real problem is that these people didn't want to leave the island. They wanted to stay on the island and make the island a place full of dangerous adventures, and drive out those who defended the distance from the dangers of the world. War was practically inevitable, as it was not just an ideological issue... It became a territorial issue: who would be able to stay on the island and establish their way of thinking there? Daniel Handler exemplifies here how civil wars start.

I found it interesting that Friday is the most confusing... She says that all she wanted was a simple life with her father and mother together. She doesn't think that learning to read is making life difficult.

Suddenly, the schism that seemed to have only two sides starts to fragment, each one screaming that they prefer something different. We can assume that the VFD schisms ended up generating several fragmentations, taking as an example what happened on the island.

It is interesting that only Olaf calls Ishmael Ish. But let's talk about Olaf's monologue, which is just as intriguing as Ish's monologue.

I will summarize the important parts of the monologue here:





- Oh, Ish, I told you many years ago that I would triumph over you someday, and at last that day has arrived. My (female) associate with the weekday for a name (Monday) told me that you were still hiding out on this island. She (Monday) was trying to blackmail an old man who was involved in a political scandal. 

Well... that's the only part that really matters in Olaf's monologue. And the fact that Poe was once an actor. So... Who is Monday? She is a woman, who was an associate of Olaf. She knew Ish was on the island, which makes us assume she was someone who was on the island at the same time as Ish. She left the island or at the time Beatrice and Bertrand left there, making her a former supporter of Beatrice and Bertrand or she left the island at the time Thursday left the island. Another important piece of information is that Olaf swore he would triumph over Ish. This shows that Ish ended up becoming an important leader of one of the VFD factions. Olaf wanted to triumph over Ish, certainly he wanted to defeat the ideology espoused by Ish.

Another important detail we have here is that, unlike the Netflix series, in which Olaf frees himself from his prison, in the book TE Olaf is released by some who believed he had enough power to dethrone Ish. This attitude certainly reflects what had happened years earlier, when one of the VFD factions decided to enlist Olaf's help in destroying the deadly MM fungus.

No longer part of Olaf's monologue, but rather a dialogue in which Olaf explains the differences between him and Ish, we have a very important phrase for us to understand the VFD schism:

"If you were to wash the clay off Ishmael's feet,
you'd see he has the same tattoo as I do... The difference is that Ishmael is unarmed. He abandoned his weapons long ago, during the V.F.D. schism, refusing to use violence of any sort."

Olaf speaks here about The VFD Schism. The use of the definite article only makes me conclude that it refers to the Great Schism. Ish is old enough to have been a part of VFD since before the Great Schism. He also has the tattoo, indicating that he had been part of the organization since before this event that took place in Kit and Dewey's childhood. Hence we have the conclusion that Ish was part of the side that refused guns of any kind. This underscores the nature of the Great Schism of VFD: one side advocated violence as a mechanism to bring peace, after all for them fire must be fought with fire. The other side, which Ish supported, argued that the world should be quiet, and refused to use violence of any kind. In ATWQ and in some parts of TBL we find texts that reflect the way of thinking of the pacifist side of VFD. And we also know that Olaf stayed on the pacifist side of VFD along with Lemony and Beatrice for a few years. But eventually Olaf became an outspoken villain, meaning Oalf stopped trying to help the world. His violent methods are not motivated by an attempt to fight fire with fire. He's greedy, and that's evident here when he wants to become king of the island. Lemony soon realized that fire sometimes needed to be fought with fire when he killed Hangfire. Kit, Beatrice and Bertrad, as adults, also surrendered to the ideology that it is sometimes necessary to kill people to bring peace. They didn't become outright villains. They just changed their views. And, after many years, we have witnessed the downfall of the main herald of total pacifism in VFD history: Ish.

"Don't be so sure about that," Ishmael said, and raised an object in the air so everyone could see it... Now the weapon was adding another chapter to its secret history, and was pointing right at Count Olaf. "I had Omeros keep this weapon handy," Ishmael said, "instead of tossing it in the arboretum, because I thought you might escape from that cage, Count Olaf, just as I escaped from the cage you put me in when you set fire to my home... I'm going to do what I should have done years ago, Olaf, and slaughter you. I'm going to fire this harpoon gun right into that bulging belly of yours!" 

I find it interesting that Olaf denies setting fire to Ish's house. For some reason, I believe him. It is not like Olaf to deny having killed someone when his cover is no longer working. Anyway, we already know Ish shot him. And I find it very bizarre that Olaf falls down laughing, as if he has triumphed over Ish. After all, Olaf managed to turn the harbour of peace into someone violent, not only by inducing him to kill him, but also by making him responsible for the deaths of dozens of people. Olaf could have displayed the helmet containing the MM fungus, and made Ish surrender. But that wouldn't have been as complete a victory as making Ish an assassin. Of course, this at the same time induced him to unmask his hypocrisy in front of everyone on the island. Ish showed that she was a hypocrite by guarding a weapon. Ish showed he was a liar by showing that he had no foot problems. Olaf had managed to turn the Baudelaires into arsonists and now managed to turn Ish into an assassin. It is true that there is nothing to indicate that Olaf planned all this unfolding of events. However, as he fell to the ground laughing, he certainly thought about how all this just proved that he had indeed triumphed.

I don't think that the use of the definite article means it refers to the "great schism" but rather the schism that happened while Olaf was alive. Also, I think the weapon that Ish refused to use was the MM.

I think this chapter proves my theory that history in ASOUE is a loop, with the same events repeating themselves again and again (as would be expected for a series set in a world of books). This is why i think DH duplicates events: because the same events happen again and again like a time loop, and you can extrapolate from one event to figure out what happened by another. (This is in essence the whole theme of TE.)

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Well... I think the Great Schism happened while Olaf was alive. The Great Schism I refer to was the one that, shortly after it, stopped getting tattoos. So Olaf and Ish were already in VFD before the Great Schism.

I agree that important events essentially end up repeating themselves in the ASOUE universe (and unfortunately in our universe), but each repetition has significant differences. Olaf was on VFD when the Great Schism took place. He was still a child or at least a teenager. He later made his own schism. Then in Gregore's time there was another schism. Olaf entered into a truce, and at the time of the main events of ASOUE, Jacques could tell Jerome that Olaf had recently performed a schism, (indicating that the truce he had begun had ended).

[Hermes]

It looks like this will be the last post ever made at 667.

Oh, wait...

I think the Great Schism definitely happened when O was alive. The Great Schism is clearly the one described by Kit and Dewey in TPP; that was the major transformation, before which VFD was an open organisation, with opium dens and geodesic domes where volunteers could meet to exchange messages, etc. K and D were four years old at the time, and O is close in age to them, though prematurely aged...., so must have been alive.

I'm not so sure about the tattoo evidence, since as I've said before, we are never told it changed immediately after the schism.

[TheAsh]

Jun 23, 2021 5:37:49 GMT -5 Hermes said:

It looks like this will be the last post ever made at 667.

Oh, wait...

I dont get the joke.

[Hermes]

I mean, it looked like JL's post would be the last post ever made at 667, since a whole day had passed and nobody had said anything, but then I replied to it, so it wasn't the last post any more.

[TheAsh]

Jun 23, 2021 6:04:06 GMT -5 Hermes said:

I mean, it looked like JL's post would be the last post ever made at 667, since a whole day had passed and nobody had said anything, but then I replied to it, so it wasn't the last post any more.

yeah, this place is slowly dying. Hope PFB fixes things.

[Hermes]

I hope to resume my Dante hat and comment on this, but it would cause too much confusion for me to start at the beginning when JL is near the end, so I will wait till he has finished this book, and then follow his example by reading his commentary backwards.

[the panopticountolaf]

I think I'll join in as well! I actually haven't read ASOUE as a whole since before the Netflix series, so this seems like a good opportunity to do so.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Jul 1, 2021 15:55:16 GMT -5 Hermes said:

I hope to resume my Dante hat and comment on this, but it would cause too much confusion for me to start at the beginning when JL is near the end, so I will wait till he has finished this book, and then follow his example by reading his commentary backwards.

Oh Hermes, thank you so much. I will finish soon.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Chapter 13:

From the moment the Baudelaire teeth bit down on the apple—first Violet's, and then Klaus's, and then Sunny's—the stalks and caps of the Medusoid Mycelium began to shrink, and within moments all traces of the dreaded mushroom had withered away, and the children could breathe clearly and easily.

The hybrid apple almost instantly cures the disease caused by the deadly fungus MM. This leads me to the conclusion that Kit's death was unnecessary. Kit could have been saved if the moment Beatrice Jr had her umbilical cord cut, she ate an apple. I don't know why Violet didn't even think about it, even if it didn't work out, I think it would be good for someone to have mentioned the possibility of saving Kit.


"Stockpot," Sunny said, and walked to the rack of pots on the ceiling, where the snake helped her take down an enormous metal pot that could hold a great number of apples and in fact had been used to make an enormous vat of applesauce a number of years previously."

This passage makes me even more certain that Lemony had read the island book, for how else would he know that precisely that cauldron was the same one that had been used to make a particular dessert years before? Certainly he read the island book and was able to compare information previously written in the book with the new information written by the Baudelaires.

"Who was playing the violin in the candlelit restaurant when the Baudelaire parents first laid eyes on one another..."

This description bothers me a lot. This seems to indicate that Bertrand and Beatrice met for the first time in a restaurant, however, I believed that one of the people cited by Lemony as B in the VFD school on TBL in Lemony's childhood was Bertrand. But to think that Bertrand Baudelaire first met Beatrice a few years after she met Lemony makes more sense given that Lemony apparently didn't trust Bertrand very much. In ATWQ, the way S. talks to Lemony about Bertrand seems to indicate that Lemony didn't know Bertrand personally or at least wasn't intimate with him.

Ish suggests that all islanders leave the island after being poisoned. I always imagined that Ish actually believed he could save everyone by getting to the factory that produced the poison's thinner. But rereading the chapter today, I realized that his plan was to let everyone die. Those people had failed to produce a peaceful community, and he himself had failed as a facilitator. As I said, Olaf had triumphed. Ish apparently acknowledged his defeat. But for some reason, this motivated him to let everyone die except himself. And just as some cult leaders led all the faithful to commit collective suicide by making them believe that this was the way to achieve salvation, Ish also made his faithful commit collective suicide. The deadly MM fungus wouldn't spread across the world, and Ish knew it. He would make sure everyone was dead before they reached shore.
I'm sorry for Friday... Ish has become a child killer. Friday chose to die rather than withdraw from her family's religious sect even though she was smart enough to realize that her decision would result in her own death. Daniel Handler makes the dangerous message in Ish's words very clear:
"Your mother is right, Friday," Ishmael said firmly. "You should respect your parent's wishes."

This time it wasn't a suggestion: it was something Ish said Friday should do. Ish didn't want to lose any of his faithful. Ish knew that apples could heal the island people, because he had read about it in the island book. He ate the apple himself to save himself. He really decided to kill the entire colony. And everyone followed him blindly to death.

But did they survive through the apple that Ink brought to them? I truly believe Daniel Handler inserted that hope here just to lessen how dark the story was. He left that question unanswered. Lemony Snicket doesn't know if they died or not. But I'm pretty sure Daniel Handler knows they're dead. People refused to eat the apple, even when they were poisoned, even with the arguments of the Baudelaires. Why would they change their minds when a serpent that doesn't speak came to the vessel? Ish didn't want people to eat the apple, he wanted them to die. Do you really think Ish would let one of the islanders eat the apple when the snake arrived? Also, how much time did the islanders have before they passed out from lack of air? The Baudelaires were infected at the same time and had almost no strength... So, in a few minutes the chance of saving the islanders through a single apple brought by a mute animal would become close to zero, considering that the only person who would still be awake and with strength would be Ish himself, who evidently didn't want anyone to eat the apple.

Now let's talk about Kit again. "How reliable is Snicket a narrator?" I think this question is asked many times and there are still people who will defend one side or the other of the issue. However now I realized that maybe we were asking the right question about the wrong Snicket. Kit Snicket needs to be re-evaluated with regard to her narration being trustworthy or not. It is true that the certainty of death often makes a person very trustworthy. But there's an important detail about this: Kit wasn't sure she was going to die. Kit believed that survival was possible, precisely because the cure was so close to her.

"I hope I'm half as good a mother as yours was, Violet," she said. "You will be," Klaus said. "I don't know," (Kit said)

I believe Kit's plan was to have the baby and then be a good mother to her. Despite that, she also knew she could die. Therefore, as death was not an absolute certainty, total honesty was perhaps not the only option.

Now let's get back to what we actually know:

1 - Kit claimed that the Queequeg was attacked.


2 - Fernald went to Hector's mobile home with the object of attacking it and according to Lemony Snicket that's what he did.

(See TPP chapter 8)-

3 - According to Olaf, the Carmelite Submarine was stolen by Fernald and Fiona. (See TPP chapter 9

In other words, while Fernald was fighting the Quagmires he had already betrayed Olaf and he had already stolen Olaf's submarine along with Fiona. Come to think of it, realize how unlikely it is that what Kit said was true. She said:

"I failed you," Kit Said Sadly, and Coughed. "Quigley Managed to Reach the Self-Sustaining Hot Air Mobile Home, Just as I Hoped He Would, and Helping His Siblings and Hector Catch the Treacherous Eagles in an Enormous Net, while I met Captain Widdershins and his stepchildren."

Then there's Quigley's difficult move to self-sustaining hot air mobile home. How did he do it? We don't know... But in the world of asoue amazing things are possible. But after that Kit claims that Captain W was already with his stepchildren. This contradicts Lemony's claim that Fernald was the enemy who had led the eagles to the self-sustaining hot air mobile home. So if Lemony isn't lying, (and I don't see any reason for Lemony to lie about these details when he could have just omitted it) Kit is lying. Fernald wouldn't have stolen the Carmelita along with Fiona, then gone to the self -sustaining hot air mobile home, used the eagles to attack them, then left the eagles there, returned to the submarine, met Captain W, regretted it, found Kit and then abandoned the Carmelita and then went along with Kit to help to the Quagmires. I mean... Is this possible? Yes. But this is very unlikely. Especially since Kit claimed to have been attacked.

Did Kit Snicket have reason to lie? I believe so. The reason is that her hypocrisy had been exposed. When she spoke out against the mutiny, two islanders had shown the Baudelaires that she herself was also a violent woman. Now she needed to invent a story to preserve her image. In fact, even if she died there that day, she certainly wanted the Baudelaires to tell her daughter good stories about Kit Snicket. In other words, Kit wanted the Baudelaires to portray her from the best angle. So Kit Snicket lied. She denied having been attacked and taken part in a match against Fernald. If there's any truth to Kit's story, I think it's more likely that Submarine Q detected Submarine C via sonar. (After all, we saw in TGG that this is quite possible). Submarine C attacked Submarine Q. (Submarine C has tentacles that can be used as weapons at short ranges, as we saw in TGG). Kit hurt her feet in this attack, as she claimed to have happened. Fernald was on Submarine C along with Fiona. And the eagles were nearby causing problems for the self-sustaining hot air mobile home, which was right above. Then yes, the house fell on them. Then things can make sense. Both submarine C and submarine Q were hit. And then Fernald and Fiona were seen by Kit for the first time, in the water. I hope several kids also got off the C-sub in time, and Kit didn't mention them to avoid needing to give details about the fight she had with C-sub.

"From the depths of the sea a mysterious figure approaching—almost like a question mark, rising out of the water."

As we saw in TGG, this question-mark entity had been behind Submarine C for a long time. It was submarine C that attracted her.

An important note: I am not saying that this was Daniel Handler's intention. He probably just got confused by generating these contradictions. I am saying that, given what is written, I think this is the best explanation.

"All I heard," she said, "was one of the Quagmires calling Violet's name." That phrase always made me dream. Now I understand that DH's goal was probably to somehow strengthen the love triangle between Ducan, Violet and Quigley. But he did it at such an awkward moment that it made me imagine other, more interesting things. And do you know? I still have a right to imagine. In my headcanon, one of the Quagmires saw a woman inside looking like Violet. And he got confused, thinking she was the girl. And so he asks out loud, "Violet?" to which Kit interpreted that he was screaming for Violet. And that's my big plot Twist from asoue. Beatrice was alive all along, and not even Lemony Snicket knows it. That might not be true, but for me it's the perfect ending.

Chapter 13, on the other hand, goes against my selfish desires. It's a chapter devoted to accepting death, and my headcanon is the exact opposite of that. The Baudelaires and Kit mourn the death of the people they loved. And they cry a lot more than all the previous descriptions. I think Daniel Handler abandoned all ideas about the possibility that one of the Baudelaire parents could have survived, although he honestly thought about it at some point. But as I've already explained, Headcanon are valid when the author decides to let the story have a life of its own. But I have to recognize that the story is better if you just accept how the story looks. Death is surprisingly simple. So I don't think the great unknown represents death. I think the great unknown represents the open ending of asoue and uncertainty about the fate of some characters. In the end, it doesn't matter whether the Baudelaires' parents survived or not. The fact is, they never met again in recorded history. Just like they've never met the Quagmires again. All these characters are in the great unknown. And like the publication of the end, the Baudelaires themselves are symbolically in the great unknown, as it doesn't matter whether or not they survived their departure from the island: in the end we won't have access to new official adventures about them. But the beauty of the unknown is that it stimulates the imagination. And it's interesting that in my imagination, Beatrice was already inside the great unknown when one of the Quagmires saw her. So, in my own Headcanon, Beatrice's fate is uncertain. As much as I want to escape from allegories to interpret asoue, the allegory is present even though the entity in the form of a question mark is a physical entity: the name given to the entity and its shape make it a walking allegory, just like the ants are a walking allegory for organization and work. We keep thinking: if it was God who created animals like these, would he want to teach us a lesson? And if Daniel Handler is the god of asoue, did he want to teach a lesson with the question-mark entity? I think the answer is yes in both cases. So, in a universe created by someone's creativity, entities can be both physical entities and allegories at the same time. So, I think that's what TGU is. And I don't see any more problems with that.

It is an interesting fact to note that Kit believed her both brothers were dead. In LSTUA we notice that Kit was trying to exonerate Lemony of the Baudelaire arson charge, even though she knew he might already be dead, which may indicate that she believed Lemony could have died in the fire itself.

Kit claims that the Baudelaire family and the Snicket family needed to stay away from each other, not just Lemony and Beatrice needed to stay away from each other. These mysterious motives must surely have been detailed in the letter Beatrice wrote to Lemony. So I don't think the wedding was canceled because Beatrice fell in love with someone else. I don't think the wedding was definitely canceled because they were life-threatening. I think there are organizational reasons for the Snickets and the Baudelaires to keep away from each other.

Now the scene of Olaf's death. I have to say: what an epic scene! Whether it was Olaf who killed Beatrice and Bertrand we will never know for sure, but he never admitted it even when he believed he would die. He didn't seem to be willing to hide facts at the time. He seemed to me to list the things he managed to do. And Olaf always liked to brag about his murders. So for me the fire was accidental.

Oalf bit the apple in order to recover from the MM fungus. He, like Kit and Ish, apparently knew that apples cure the disease caused by the fungus. He at first refused. Had he accepted death? I think so.

Now: What was the relationship between Kit and Olaf? Everything indicates that it had been an old relationship. Something like a first love.

Olaf did not apologize. He didn't think he was wrong. He wasn't sorry for his villainy.

Kit survived for more than an hour, I am sure of it, before Beatrice could be born. A mother's willpower is really impressive.

This excerpt below is for me one of the most important:
"The Baudelaires would sit together in the two large reading chairs and take turns reading out loud from the book their parents had left behind, and sometimes they would flip to the back of the book, and add a few lines to the history themselves. reading and writing, the siblings found many answers for which they had been looking, although each answer, of course, only brought forth another mystery, as there were many details of the Baudelaires' lives that seemed like a strange, unreadable shape of some great unknown."

This is clear proof that the Baudelaires left their own history on the island. Not only did Klaus write about it, but all three Baudelaires did, including Sunny who must have had enough time to learn to write. And Lemony knows they wrote it. I can only conclude that Lemony knows what they wrote, and it is on this basis that Lemony makes a narrative from the Baudelaires' point of view, even including an exact record of what they thought and talked privately. Another evidence that Lemony read this book is seen in the following excerpt:

"As the night grew later the ould drop off to sleep, just as their parents did, in the chairs in the secret space beneath the roots of the bitter apple tree."

Lemony knew details of what had happened to the Baudelaires' parents, which evidently happened when they were on the island. They themselves had written these events in the same book.


Now, regarding the final section of the chapter:

"In many ways, the lives of the Baudelaire orphans that year is not unlike my own, now that I have concluded my investigation. Like Violet, like Klaus, and like Sunny, I visit certain grave, and often spend my mornings standing on a brae, staring out at the same sea. It is not the whole story, of course, but it is enough. Under the circumstances, it is the best for which you can hope."

I think it's pretty clear that Lemony wrote this passage while he was on the island. Lemony was visiting the same graves as he waited for an opportunity to leave the island.

I will still read TBL again. So I know that Lemony wrote the letter to the editor of TBL after he learned of Beatrice Jr.'s existence. After he learned of her existence, Lemony searched for the items cited in TBL. So after that he went to the island and finished writing TE on the island. As I said, it is very likely that at this time the island was already inhabited by very nice people who did not allow apples to be removed from the island.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Chapter 14

I believed that in ASOUE's universe, chapter 14 was apparently written some time after the rest of the book. But I abandoned that idea. Lemony wrote to the editor that chapter 14 could be found at the end of the same manuscript.

We then have the epigraph of Le Voyage. It's an excerpt that portrays the moment of death, and perhaps the acceptance of death. But I don't think this means that Lemony is completely certain of the Baudelaires' death. I think it means he's pretty sure he won't write about the Baudelaires anymore. I think the right question is "why did Lemony decide to stop writing at this point in the story?" "Why did he plan to write more and then stop writing?" I think Lemony didn't promise to write the entire story of the Baudelaires. He promised to write the story of the conflict between the Baudelaires and Olaf. So when he was sure of Olaf's death, and that was only with the additional information he had probably had access to through Beatrice Jr, Lemony realized that the research might be over. The certainty of Olaf's death was the event he determined when the narrative came to an end. So, it makes us wonder what kind of promise Lemony made. Apparently he promised that he would clarify the facts surrounding the charges the Baudelaires went through, as well as the contexts in which these events took place. That's why it was so important to get this information out to the general public. Because it involved the honor of the Baudelaire family. Furthermore, this explains why he could not rely solely on the account given by the Baudelaires themselves: after all, they were being accused of being lying criminals. Lemony needed to clear their name, proving, so to speak, that the facts reported by the Baudelaires were real, and it was not enough just to record what he read in the island book.


I think this is the most sensible explanation, and as a theorist I will defend it. But as a fan willing to come up with slightly bizarre ideas, I feel like imagining Lemony realizing that his own death was close to happening. It would be interesting to imagine that Lemony's research took so long that he was an elderly man when he was publishing The End. And the reason Lemony finished his work at this point would be his physical limitations. That would explain shocking secret #13: "he's finished." And more than that: it would even explain the title of the book: "The End of Lemony Snicket". And furthermore, this would explain Lemony's dedication to Beatrice in chapter 14. After quoting the words of Charles B., in which the poet compares the hour of death with the setting off of a ship, Lemony claims that both he and Beatrice are like boats sailing at night, but especially her. Both were on a dark and lonely journey, but she was already dead. "

Beatrice's last words recorded in the book were really emotional to me when I first read them, and they still are today. Especially after I watched the Netflix series, it's now possible to imagine a very specific face when I picture Beatrice. And it's possible to think of a specific soundtrack when I read this.

About the baby's name, on my Headcanon Violet is the name of Mrs. W, who was presumed dead around the same time as Lemony. And in my Headcanon, just as Lemony didn't really die, she didn't either. I still like to think that she was the mystery woman on TGG, and that's the real reason Quigley used the name Violet in the message he sent to submarine Q.

I think this is the first time I stop to think that the Baudelaires ate crab. This is unclean food for those who practice Judaism as a religion, isn't it? I even thought the roast lamb was a reference to the Passover celebration, but they wouldn't do that by eating crab. Or is it that in a book in which Daniel Handler implicitly criticizes religion, he did so on purpose? I think it's unlikely, but still possible. But, albeit unintentionally, the Baudelaires rejected the religious customs of their ancestors in a book in which religious customs are questioned and this is significant.




"The baby had heard about danger, too, mostly from the register of crimes, follies, and misfortunes of mankind from which the Baudelaires read out loud each evening, although they had not told the infant the whole story. She did not know all of the Baudelaires' secrets, and indeed there were some she would never know."



The above excerpt is important as it reveals that Lemony has information about Beatrice Jr's future as he was writing this chapter. This explains how Lemony knows what happened in this chapter: Beatrice Jr told him. Lemony did meet her, and he realized that the Baudelaires hadn't told her the whole story.


A detail that has always pleased me in this book is to notice that after 1 year, Sunny stopped babbling words and has a more conventional and extensive vocabulary. I find this compatible with the fact that 1 year has passed and it's also compatible with her character development arc. One of asoue's themes is "how some children are forced to mature too quickly because of tragedy". Sunny, for example, needed to learn how to cook and convince herself that she loved doing it and that she was good at it in a few days. And all this before she learned to speak English properly. She needed to help with a birth long before she fully understood issues related to human procreation. But in chapter 14, she finally had the opportunity to develop without tragedies forcing her to skip important steps in life.





"Do we take this?" Violet asked, holding up the book from which she had read out loud.

"I don't think so," Klaus said. "Perhaps another castaway will arrive, and continue the history."

"In any case," Sunny said, "they'll have something to read."



Please realize how important this dialogue is. Daniel Handler placed this dialogue here to make sure the reader understood the source of information Lemony had access to: the island book. The children wrote about their own story in that book, including their thoughts, feelings, and private conversations. The children shared some details about ancient events, about when Sunny wasn't even born. In the book, Lemony found details about some events that took place on the island before the arrival of the three Baudelaires.




"I want to make sure these life jackets I've designed will fit properly."




Well... It's good to know that, even though the boat sank, the Baudelaires had lifeboats. Their chances of survival really increased a lot. And knowing that Beatrice Jr managed to survive a shipwreck, it's quite possible that they did too.




The Baudelaires watched her approach, wondering what the next chapter in this infant's life would be, and indeed that is difficult to say. There are some who say that the Baudelaires rejoined V.F.D. and are engaged in brave errands to this day, perhaps under different names to avoid being captured. There are others who say that they perished at sea, although rumors of one's death crop up are often revealed to be untrue. But in any case, as my investigation is over, we have indeed reached the last chapter of the Baudelaires' story, even if the Baudelaires had not.




Lemony just reports here what he heard. Although Daniel Handler intentionally wishes the ending to be left open, and I will respect his decision, I will speak my opinion. They didn't die at sea, though. Note that Lemony directly relates the baby's future to the future of the three Baudelaires. The way Lemony wrote here suggests that the baby's future is as uncertain as the future of her adoptive parents. But we TBL readers know the truth about Beatrice Jr.'s future. Beatrice is alive! So the most likely situation is that her parents are also alive. ( And who knows other characters that we thought had died there on TBB... could it be that at least one of them could also have survived?)
But the question is: if Lemony knows the baby survived, why did he hide this information from the reader? Certainly to protect his niece. Lemony didn't lie, just omitted some details.



The baby paused, and looked at the back of the boat, where the nameplate had been affixed. She had no way of knowing this, of course, but the nameplate had been nailed to the back of the boat by a person standing on the very spot she was standing—at least as far as my research has shown.



Lemony once again dismantled specific knowledge through research, which could only have been done through information provided by others. Beatrice Jr needed to tell Lemony exactly where she was at that moment and Lemony needed to compare that with the information Beatrice Sr and Bertrand wrote in the island book. And then, on visiting the site, Lemony was able to ascertain the most likely position for those descriptions. While Lemony is a bit mistaken, the research process must have been like that.



Finally, she uttered a word. The Baudelaire orphans gasped when they heard it, but they could not say for sure whether she was reading the word out loud or merely stating her own name, and indeed they never learned this. Perhaps this last word was the baby's first secret, joining the secrets the Baudelaires were keeping from the baby, and all the other secrets immersed in the world. Perhaps it is better not to know what was meant by this word, as some things are better left in the great unknown. There are some words, of course, that are better left unsaid—but not, I believe, the word uttered by my niece, a word which here means that the story is over. Beatrice.




Oh... How I love this ending. That's when I felt my head explode for the first time in my life, and I'm still picking up the pieces.

[TheAsh]

I think Snicket Sleuth makes clear that they survived? snicketsleuth.tumblr.com/post/142535579695/did-the-baudelaire-orphans-survive-chapter

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Sleuth's argument about the "many years" part of TRR was dropped by Dante, in a private conversation I had with him. According to Dante, the reference to Klaus not being able to sleep for years could mean the whole year in which the main story takes place, plus the year on the island, making two years and maybe a few more months. This makes sense, since in TE Lemony he makes statements that indicate his research ended with information about the island's departure. Lemony also makes statements that show he doesn't know what happened after he left the island. Not for sure. And this is in keeping with my strong arguments involving Lemony's main source of information on the Buadelaire case - the Island Book.

Regarding the argument involving the pirates and the third time on the beach, Dante stated that this information was to be confirmed, according to TBBRE itself. And, Lemony stated in TE that there are people who claim to have seen the Baudelaires while there are people who claim they died. So it appears that after thorough investigation, Lemony has not found evidence strong enough for him to determine beyond a shadow of a doubt that they survived or died.

[Hermes]

Well, we should bear in mind that there may be no definite answer,, because Handler's intentions changed during the writing of the series. It's likely that at first he wanted us to believe that the Baudelaires survived, but later decided to throw doubt on this.

But if we are to address this from a Watsonian point of view:

I'm doubtful about both of Dante's arguments. It isn't natural to say 'years' when you just mean two years (and in any case, if you want to be persnickety, I don't think the main action of ASOUE is likely to cover more than six months, so it would only be one and a half years). And while it's certainly left open whether Violet actually did meet the FFP on her third visit to Briny Beach, the way Lemony puts it seems to imply that there definitely was a third visit. There's also Sunny appearing on the radio to discuss her recipes, hard to explain if she did not survive.

I think we have to say simply that L had lots of evidence implying that they were alive, but he also had reports that they were dead. Since he did not himself see V's return to Briny Beach, or hear the broadcasts, he can't be sure these stories are true.

At least, as the Doctor points out, we can't simply assume they are dead because Beatrice sank, since young B certainly survived, and so the others might have done too. Some, I think, conclude that they were swallowed by the Great Unknown because of the image of the question mark in the water, but I would argue that that isn't the Great Unknown, the underwater being, but the great unknown, the uncertainty of life and death.