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Post by Hermes on Sept 4, 2021 18:02:56 GMT -5
So where to begin? I think this can be seen as fundamentally a book about the great unknown. Not, of course, the Great Unknown, the underwater being, but the great unknown, the uncertainty of life and especially of death. I wonder if it arose out of DH's frustration over that element bweing largely cut out of the show - the Great Unknown is still there, and can be seen, rather indistinctly, as conveying that there is much in the world we do not understand, but it no longer represents the uncertainty of the future. This book returns to the philosophical moral of ASOUE.
I agree that there is a lot of Handler here. Not so much because it is didactic - Snicket can be didactic - but because it seems to reflect Handler's life in many ways; when he says it is all true, it seems this is because it reflects incidents in DH's life, and friends of his. I don't actually accept Jean's kidnapping theory, he will not be surprised to hear: everything here can be made consistent with Snicket's life, and we will no doubt try to do so, much to DH's frustration; indeed we have already begun. His philosophy is quite consistent with Snicket's as well. And in some respects the character is shown as Snicket, not Handler, most obviously in that he seems to live alone and not with a wife and child. But the border between author and narrator is certainly thin in places.
The book was definitely frustrating as it went along. I'm not worried that L didn't die; I'm not worried that he was never really in danger. The conclusion seems to me a nice twist, and something that could happen (and as an Old person, I am in a position to know); snd it introduces a point of philosophical significance. But it was weird that throughout the book there was so little sense of danger. When I first heard the plot, I was reminded of the episode in TGG where Sunny is dying, and there's a strong sense of urgency there; here there isn't; Lemony does not seem deeply worried. I thought he was going to go round the places where he got the food in a serious effort to detect what the source of the poison might be; he tries this, briefly, with the honey, but then is fustrated a couple of times, gives up, and decides this is a good moment to go swimming. The truth, I think, becomes clear at the end; Lemony has already achieved calmness in the face of death, which he was expressing when he wrote 'You had poison for breakfast' in the first place. As Rabbi Bligh said, eventually we're all going to die, and it's good to listen to rabbis. But before that point it's a bit of a puzzle what is happening.
And more generally, the book often seems a bit lacking in direction, as Bee said; first he thinks about this and then he thinks about that, with no obvious connection. Again I think this is resolved at the end; the final monologue about bewilderment shows the connection between the various questions that arise along the way. I am strongly reminded of 'Figure in Fog' in FU13, which contains a similar catalogue of mysteries; also, to a lesser extent, various passasges about uncertainty in TPP, ezpecially the 'Where are they now?' passage. So I do urge people to persevere. But I do get the semse of frustration before one reaches the end.
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jackson
Catastrophic Captain
We will attend masked balls at her castle, and you can get scared then.
Posts: 50
Likes: 29
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Post by jackson on Sept 6, 2021 13:24:31 GMT -5
Edit: I research reptiles, now y'all! It's an announcement, which means it appears at the top of every board. Thank you, I didn't realize that's what the blue exclamation mark is for. I'm still concerned that a new 667'er who stumbles on our avenue looking for a place to discuss PFB may not click into any of the boards on the homepage and conclude that a PFB thread doesn't exist. That's probably a niche concern though. But it was weird that throughout the book there was so little sense of danger. [...] The truth, I think, becomes clear at the end; Lemony has already achieved calmness in the face of death. I was also confused by Snicket's lack of urgency, which made me suspect that it wasn't a faithful retelling of the events. I think your interpretation is clearest. I had expectations of Lemony's personality and behavior, and I thought we were going to tear through the town in a romp of a murder mystery à la ATWQ. And although Lemony's personality is very much intact in this story, he didn't behave like my construction of Lemony, and I now think he resigned himself before he left the breakfast table after itemizing his last thought. If you're actually poisoned by a competent poisoner, you're screwed, which is such a blatant contradiction to the rules of ASoUE that it stung a bit. And Lemony must not have been equipped to deal with a poisoner at this point in his life, which makes me sad. And more generally, the book often seems a bit lacking in direction, as Bee said; first he thinks about this and then he thinks about that, with no obvious connection. Again I think this is resolved at the end; the final monologue about bewilderment shows the connection between the various questions that arise along the way. I also felt a rush of resolution and peace during the monologue, but I can't tell how much of it was coherent and how much of it was Handler being an excellent spinstress of evocative images and stories. Maybe that's all that matters, though.
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Post by Hermes on Sept 7, 2021 17:15:31 GMT -5
Chapter 1. 'A word which here means...'; clearly in some ways we are still in familiar territory, even though this book is, as he goes on to say, different from all his others.
'there is death at the end of the story' - this is deceptive, of course (as is saying that the poison is real). LS does not, as we might suppose, die at the end of the book. But death is always the end of our story, as we will become aware. I am reminded of the passage in TPP which contrasts the denouement with the end - the latter, it seems, always being death.
'I have been fixing my own breakfast for many years' - if I remember rightly, at almost thirteen he was a passable chef, or something along those lines.
This incident by the sea, as noted earlier, must be during one of the visits home he was allowed. The later bits about when he was living in a house in the city are noticeably vague about who he was living with; he 'would be told' to brush his teeth and put his shoes on, but we don't hear who told him. Presumably this is based on real events that happened to DH when he was living with his parents, but we're allowed to believe it was a VFD house with a guardian, attached to the school.
The child kidnapping bit is certainly rather odd if L himself has been kidnapped - though of course that wasn't a real kidnapping, as his parents had given permission.
'All books of philosophy end up mentioning death' - this really is not true. There are many other reasons why people don't like reading them.
LS likes being called Mr Snicket - this may illuminate the passage in TE where Beatrice calls him MR Snicket, even though they seem to be engaged or at least a couple.
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jackson
Catastrophic Captain
We will attend masked balls at her castle, and you can get scared then.
Posts: 50
Likes: 29
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Post by jackson on Sept 8, 2021 1:54:45 GMT -5
Oh goodness Hermes is breaking out his margin annotations and I’m so here for it.
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Post by Hermes on Sept 8, 2021 4:04:10 GMT -5
I rather assumed everyone would do this. That's how we normally treat new Snicket books.
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Post by Hermes on Sept 8, 2021 17:23:12 GMT -5
Chapter 2. The initial numbered thoughts do not make sense, of course; 'jump to 35' is an impossible instruction if he is numbering his thoughts as he has them. However, I agree with Lemony about jokes. Some people seem to think any false statement is a joke. 'Paris is the capital of Italy.' 'No it isn't, Paris is the capital of France. Rome is the -' 'It was a JOKE.'
These thoughts, though, do suggest that he is initially in a state of panic, but if so he overcomes it very quickly. If you decide to use philosophy to investigate your demise, that rather limits the kind of answers you will get; it won't tell you who poisoned you, or how, or how to recover; rather it may tell you, in some sense, the meaning of these events. But seeking their meaning implies that you are already resigned to them happening. I think he rather understimates the possibility of the police or hospital helping him - the police can investigate whether a crime has happened or not; a hospital can do tests to see if you have been poisoned. And already, he starts reflecting on the fact that we are all going to die.
Lemony may have had several funerals - as well as the one reported in TUA, it's likely Bertrand and Beatrice attended one when Violet was very young - but presumably he was not at any of them. Still, it is once again a bit odd that he does not mention this point, as with the kidnapping. Altogether his responses don't sound like those of someone who has had a life of conflict with villains, and belongs to an organisation dedicated to combating them, so might often have to face the threat of poison.
The list of possible forms of death is quite striking; some are clear enough, others less so (how might one die of a a trumpet?).
'Finest hour' is a phrase that is going to recur - this is a very Snicketlike feature, as with 'the belly of the beast', 'the wicked way of the world' and so on.
He lives on a hill, it seems, on the edge of a city. Is it the city of ASOUE? - that is hard to say. Since he calls it a city and not a town, it is presumably not Stain'd.
I do wonder about 'someone goes on a journey' and 'a stranger comes to town'. It's true, of course, that if a stranger comes to town they must have gone on a journey. But surely they are different stories, because one is about what it means for the traveller, and the other is about what it means for the town. (Though they can be mixed, as they are in ATWQ.)
'She's dead now.' Will we, I wonder, get a (reported) death in each chapter?
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Sept 9, 2021 2:04:52 GMT -5
I rather assumed everyone would do this. That's how we normally treat new Snicket books. It's literally the most exciting nostalgia rush. Takes me back to the re-read days. I'm yet to get further than page 6 due to time constraints but I will be reading and commenting.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Sept 10, 2021 15:52:06 GMT -5
Help me about Chapter 2:
"33 Where does the king keep his armies?"
Why would this question be a good joke?
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Post by the panopticountolaf on Sept 10, 2021 15:58:03 GMT -5
Help me about Chapter 2: "33 Where does the king keep his armies?" Why would this question be a good joke? Think of the sleeves of a shirt - they're where you put your arms. The king keeps his "armies" (military regiments) up his "sleevies" (a corruption of "sleeves"). The joke's in the fact that "arm" and "army" sound sort of kind of a bit similar. Hilarious, I know.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Sept 10, 2021 16:52:31 GMT -5
Oh Thanks!
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Post by Hermes on Sept 10, 2021 18:05:49 GMT -5
Chapter 3.When someone claims that there is really only one story, it's rather hard to see the point. If someone says there are three stories (Hamlet, Pride and Prejudice and Belisarius: Boy Meets Girl, The Little Tailor and The Man who Learned Better: Man versus Man, Man versus Plan and Man versus Canal), that can be helpful in enabling us to see both similarities and differences. But if there is one story, that doesn't really explain anything; it's thr differences between the versions of the stories which are interesting. And anyway, how are all stories about someone losing something? I suppose in any experience, we lose our inexperience, but that seems rather tautological. Of course there can be stories about people losing things; a sugar bowl, for instance.
Zeno's paradox does indeed fit well into the theme of the great unknown, since, though its conclusion is clearly wrong, it is very hard to explain why. However, I would point out that: a. This paradox is not called Achilles and the Tortoise, as LS assets in the notes; that is a different paradox. This one is called, rather boringly, the dichotomy. b. The circumstances of Zeno's death are uncertain, but if he was indeed tortured, it is not because of his ideas but because he took part in a plot against a tyrant. Most philosophers in antiquity were not persectured; Socrates was unusual. Does Zeno count as the dead person for this chapter?
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jackson
Catastrophic Captain
We will attend masked balls at her castle, and you can get scared then.
Posts: 50
Likes: 29
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Post by jackson on Sept 11, 2021 0:17:22 GMT -5
Maybe I missed something Hermes, ...but why are you after a dead character in each chapter? As an aside, I found the
anecdote so starkly believable it was upsetting and I'm convinced it did not come from Handler's imagination, which makes it even worse. Only life produces such morbid comedy.
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Post by R. on Sept 11, 2021 1:21:52 GMT -5
I got super upset about it too!
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Post by Hermes on Sept 11, 2021 5:41:27 GMT -5
...but why are you after a dead character in each chapter? Well, just that there's one in the first two chapters, and I seem to remember there being a few later on. I'm fairly sure the shoemaker is real, as the book is dedicated to her memory.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Sept 11, 2021 6:10:05 GMT -5
Help me about Chapter 2: "33 Where does the king keep his armies?" Why would this question be a good joke? Think of the sleeves of a shirt - they're where you put your arms. The king keeps his "armies" (military regiments) up his "sleevies" (a corruption of "sleeves"). The joke's in the fact that "arm" and "army" sound sort of kind of a bit similar. Hilarious, I know. Jokes about armies are pretty naive.
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