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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jan 5, 2023 5:39:23 GMT -5
Chapter 1: I think two people have already asked about that. could have sent Mr. Poe to pick up the children from the beach, but zero people responded. So I'm going to change the count. The scene of Mr. Poe going to receive precise information about the location of the children and being sent to fetch them is repeated in TGG/TPP. It is clear to me that only people involved in the business that had to be postponed could know the specific location of the Baudelaires at that very moment. I used to strongly argue that this was strong evidence that one of the Baudelaires' parents did in fact survive the Baudelaire mansion fire. In my commonplace books, I made notes that showed that the fire had been premeditated by one of the Baudelaires' parents, and that arrangements had been made in advance for a message to be sent to Mr. Poe. In other words, I believed that Beatrice could have killed her husband and tried to save her children through Mr. Poe. This still strikes me as an interesting conspiracy theory, but I thought of less drastic solutions that more fit with the author's intentions, both at this point and through the retcons. As already explained, there is strong evidence that Lemony Snicket was due to visit the Baudelaires' home that day and that he had already visited the Baudelaires' home on other occasions (quite possibly on occasions when the children were not home because they had been sent to the beach.) Lemony knew that the Baudelaire parents did not want the children to be directly involved with VFD, and it is very likely that Lemony knew the will of the Baudelaire parents, as the Baudelaire fortunes were actually VFD resources and not just a family matter. Therefore, everything indicates that Lemony was the one who sent Mister Poe to quickly fetch the children from the beach, so that Beatrice's will could be fulfilled without the children being sent to some VFD member's home. The next of kin would most likely be their uncle, who must not have been part of VFD. So Lemony must have used an alias to contact Mr. Poe and ask him to pick up the children from the place where he knew they would be, as this is where Baudelaire parents always send the children before meeting up with Lemony. He had to act quickly, as soon as he heard about the fire and it was verified through Mr H that there were no survivors. If he took any longer, the children would be taken away by some VFD member, which would be contrary to what Beatrice would have wanted.
It was probably Lemony, using the false name of JS, who asked Charles and Mr. Poe to pick up the children from TGG and TPP, using the same logic. It is important to know that at the time, Lemony did not know the details of the misfortunes the Baudelaires experienced because of Mr. Poe's ineptitude, as Lemony did not follow the Baudelaires' every step during the main events of ASOUE. He was a fugitive at the time, living in constant disguise. He only came to understand the degree of hardship they went through through his fact-checking research that took place some time after the children left the island.
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453
Reptile Researcher
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Post by 453 on Jan 6, 2023 7:19:51 GMT -5
Do we really have any reason to believe Snicket is innocent of the arson of the Baudelaire home?
Say Snicket and the Baudelaire parents decided to murder Olaf. (We have evidence that Mr & Mrs Baudelaire murdered his parents, so why not Olaf as well?) Mr and Mrs Baudelaire agreed to sacrifice their home and all of their possessions (even their library?) under the assumption that Olaf would perish in the fire. They only had to make sure their children were away from home at the time. They planned to escape via the secret passage, and arranged this with Jerome Squalor. Unfortunately, Jerome's girlfriend/wife was evil and ruined the whole thing. She warned Olaf to have an escape plan, while also barring the Baudelaires' exit. Perhaps Snicket escaped with Olaf, or maybe he wasn't even involved.
Maybe?
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Post by Tiran O'Saurus on Jan 6, 2023 7:57:16 GMT -5
Do we really have any reason to believe Snicket is innocent of the arson of the Baudelaire home? In terms of hard evidence? No. But there's no evidence for it, either. Your theory is based off evidence that isn't even circumstantial. Consider: Why did the Baudelaire parents wait a decade at least between murdering Olaf's parents and the man himself? Why would Jerome, who wasn't a volunteer, go along with this plan? Why would Lemony go to the mansion during this plan? If the parents started the fire to kill Olaf, why are you blaming Lemony? Beyond that, none of these characters (Beatrice, Bertrand, Lemony, or Jerome) would contemplate a plan like this. I don't think they'd even want to kill Olaf, more like capture him. I cannot see why the Baudelaire parents would want their children to think they were dead, creating the entire series in the first place.
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Post by HAL 10,000 on Jan 6, 2023 10:05:32 GMT -5
Chapter 3: I have to agree that the thing about eating nothing but Gorgonzola cheese is pretty funny. Sleeping on a wood floor isn’t all that bad(don’t ask me how I know). I wonder if the rocks in the orphans’ room were meant to be toys or merely some warped decoration. Fun fact:Puttanesca means “monkey’s pasta.”That’s why in the movie when the Bauds announce they’ve made Puttanesca, Olaf’s like “What did you call me?”
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jan 6, 2023 10:26:32 GMT -5
As one of the creators of the most complex theory about Beatrice's survival, I can say that, if Beatrice had survived, the reason that could lead her not to reveal this publicly would be the fact that she was hypothetically afraid that if Olaf knew that she was alive, he would no longer have reason to preserve at least one of her children alive should the children fall into his hands again. In my complex theory, this is what motivated Lemony to pass the information on to Beatrice at the Masked Ball, which took place years after the main events narrated in ASOUE: Lemony went to warn Beatrice "Count Olaf is Dead". In other words, "You don't have to hide anymore."
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453
Reptile Researcher
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Post by 453 on Jan 6, 2023 12:44:45 GMT -5
Beyond that, none of these characters (Beatrice, Bertrand, Lemony, or Jerome) would contemplate a plan like this. I don't think they'd even want to kill Olaf, more like capture him. I cannot see why the Baudelaire parents would want their children to think they were dead, creating the entire series in the first place. Well, Beatrice and Bertrand are heavily implied in the canon to be murderers, so I don't know why you'd feel that they wouldn't contemplate killing Count Olaf. And if it had gone to plan, the children would never think they were dead - the parents would escape through Jerome's apartment and proceed to reunite with their kids. ^_~
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jan 6, 2023 14:33:04 GMT -5
I believe that if Beatrice or Bertrand survived, they didn't use Jerome's apartment in their escape. There is no canonical evidence for this, and the difficulty of execution is very great. If one of them survived, they used the tunnel itself as protection from the flames, and waited for time to pass inside the tunnel itself. (Perhaps by design or simply because he was injured). When he finally managed to leave through the land where the house was located, the survivor was seen by a neighbor, and that is why the rumors that the land was haunted began. (The neighbor thought the survivor was a ghost). Lemony states that he always cries when he sees the city's underground plan, indicating that the tunnel itself may have important significance to the story, and not necessarily where the tunnel leads to. Quigley's account of survival indicates that it is possible to survive using the tunnel itself. He tried to go back to his own house, and he just couldn't because the passage was obstructed. If the passage had not been obstructed, he would have gone back to the lot where the house stood, and he would never have reached Uncle Monty's house. I think if you think about it that way it makes a lot more sense, although I believe it's more likely that no one survived.
If Beatrice and Bertrand are assassins, (and maybe they aren't) and they planned to kill Olaf, I guess that wasn't possible for 14 years simply because Olaf wasn't in town most of that time. Mr. Poe explained that Olaf was very busy putting on theatrical performances around the world. Indeed, the deaths of Bertrand and Beatrice may have made Olaf realize that it was safe to return to the City, and by the force of fate, the children of his enemies became his stepchildren.
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Post by Tiran O'Saurus on Jan 6, 2023 14:38:42 GMT -5
If Beatrice and Bertrand are assassins, (and maybe they aren't) and they planned to kill Olaf, I guess that wasn't possible for 14 years simply because Olaf wasn't in town most of that time. Mr. Poe explained that Olaf was very busy putting on theatrical performances around the world. Indeed, the deaths of Bertrand and Beatrice may have made Olaf realize that it was safe to return to the City, and by the force of destiny, the children of his enemies became his stepchildren. Now that's a cool connection. I just changed your "the force of fate" to "the force of destiny" because that's the English translation of the opera name.
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Post by HAL 10,000 on Jan 6, 2023 20:01:20 GMT -5
Dang, I didn't know about that censor.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Jan 7, 2023 5:32:18 GMT -5
That's brilliant.
The idea of the fire being an assassination attempt for Olaf is not one I've come across before. Whilst I don't buy it, I would find it interesting to consider the idea of the Baudelaire parents intentionally starting the fire for dubious reasons only for it to lead their demise fitting into the world very easily.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jan 7, 2023 14:34:00 GMT -5
Chapter 2 Nite: Curiously enough, Mr. Baudelaire’s brandy bottle was found on the remains of the dining table, with no coasters nearby. This would indicate that either the coasters were burned beyond recognition, or the Baudelaires had received a visitor who had no manners whatsoever.
I cannot accept the lack of coasters as evidence that a villain was in the house. However, Lemony's personal note on the matter is evidence that he himself was not in the house. Lemony looks like an innocent trying to theorize about what could have caused the fire rather than a culprit trying to hide its presence.
Poisonous plants and royal gardens: this subject has always called my attention. I would be happy if you guys read my fanfic about how I hypothetically solved this issue. But, Jacques Snicket was trying to publish that there was a fire and he would certainly report that a poisonous plant was gone. Canonically, poison is a subject related to poisoned darts. I know a lot of people think Beatrice and Bertrand are murderers. But maybe this is all a big misunderstanding. I think it's more likely that Olaf killed his own parents. He stole the poisonous plant and left his mark to set fire to things in the royal gardens. Then he used the darts to kill the parents. Bertrand, Beatrice and Kit were likely dealing with evidence of a crime, the murder of Olaf's parents, and were not accomplices to murder. If not, it would be odd for Geraldine to try to cover for Olaf.
In retcom, we can conclude that Olaf's house was one of the VFD bases at some time in the past, as it has an eye carved right on the door. This must go back to when VFD was not so secretive, when people could join the organization just by volunteering.
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Post by Tiran O'Saurus on Jan 9, 2023 11:09:17 GMT -5
Notes on the last couple chapters: Wart-Faced Man never appears again. What was the plot of The Marvelous Marriage? With the bride only having one line, how do you make a whole play about a marriage?
Can we start TRR soon? I'm already up to TWW in my personal reread.
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Post by HAL 10,000 on Jan 10, 2023 10:15:08 GMT -5
Chapter 4: Define interestingly-shaped. Love how Lemony defines all the ingredients. I think Olaf was setting them up to fail, he never specified wanting roast beef and then throws a tantrum because they didn’t make roast beef. Who were the other people?From this point onward we just see the main troupe members. God, Baldy is creepy.
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Post by Tiran O'Saurus on Jan 10, 2023 13:32:21 GMT -5
Who were the other people? From this point onward we just see the main troupe members. Probably the three short men, short haired woman, and wart faced man. They are mentioned during the production of The Marvelous Marriage.
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Post by HAL 10,000 on Jan 11, 2023 20:04:49 GMT -5
Chapter 5: There’s something bittersweet about the Baudelaires discussing the castle. Also, them contrasting having a roof over their heads with being in the streets kind of foreshadows them being on the run later on. Wow, Mr Poe is a dummy. I never tire of the literally vs figuratively explanation.
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