Baudelaire - Quagmire - Death ?

[laty]

Did the Baudelaires die? 
Did the Quagmires die?

Im curious about both perspectives from the books and the show.
There seems to be confusion on what happened to the Quagmires so i'll state what i know and we'll see if it is deemed accurate.

(BOOKS) Baudelaires: Died after leaving the island that Ishmael was in charge of.
(BOOKS) Quagmires: Died in the queequeg, apparently The Great Unknown caused some sort of crash? I remember Kit Snicket talking about it. How one of the Quagmires yelled Violets name (I presume it's Quigley) and how they probably didn't survive.

(SHOW) Baudelaires: Survived with Beatrice II.
(SHOW) Quagmires: Duncan and Isadora Reunited with Quigley and live in a hot air mobile home designed by Hector. In the show you can see the air mobile home floating in the sky in one of the scenes where Lemony is talking to the audience (guessing from memory it might be The Reptile Room)

I've heard people say that the Baudelaires and Qaugmires reunited at Briny Beach, mentioned in The Incomplete History of Secret Organizations. I don't have a copy of that book yet, but please do share your opinions and what you think occurred!

- The world is quiet here.

[Tiran O'Saurus]

The Baudelaires almost certainly survived in both continuities. In a book called The Beatrice Letters, Beatrice II writes about what the Baudelaires are doing in the present day, like Sunny hosting a cooking show on the radio.

The Quagmires are more complicated. Yes, as you said, they survive the show because it doesn't know what the word unfortunate means. In the book, the Self Sustaining Hot Air Mobile Home is knocked out of the sky by evil eagles, and crashes into the Queequeg which is sailing beneath it. All the passengers of both see the Great Unknown* in the water below them and decide to take their chances with it, with only Kit trying to leave and ending up on the island.

*So are they dead or not? That depends on the nature of the Great Unknown. The show just makes it a big sea monster, but the books leave it very ambiguous. There's a series of prequel books called All The Wrong Questions which feature a sea monster called the Bombinating Beast, which some people theorize is the Great Unknown. So the short answer is that no one knows what happened to the Quagmires, but they probably won't be seeing the Baudelaires again, since if people could leave the Great Unknown it wouldn't be very unknown.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

I have to say that I subtly disagree, and I have already explained the reasons on the subject in my TE Review. In short, Lemony Snicket demonstrates specific knowledge about where the Quagmires were as the events involving the Baudelaires on the island unfolded. Accepting as an obvious fact that Lemony Snicket wrote asoue many years after the main events described in asoue, it is to be expected that he had enough time to carry out his field research and interviews in order to conform facts, as indicated in TBBRE. Also, Captain W apparently knows what the TGU is. And yet, he made the conscious decision to go to TGU instead of running away. The fact that one of the Quagmires calls Violet's name is also significant. The only thing that would make someone call out her name right now was if they had seen something inside the TGU that appeared to be Violet. A woman, obviously.

So, Captain W believed that the TGU was a means of water transport (either an animal transporting people, or a submarine transporting people) and the fact that someone saw a person inside and mistook that person for Violet only confirms the belief from Captain W. And the fact that years later Lemony managed to time exactly when the events involving the Quagmires occurred while the Baudelaires were walking on the island, indicates that the Quagmires or others who entered the TGU were able to get out and pass the information to someone (perhaps at the same time).

Lemony himself or someone Lemony was able to interview). Furthermore, in TSS, Lemony talks about a great cartographer who was still alive at the time Lemony was publishing asoue. This is a clear reference to the adult Quigley, who survived for many years after the main events, and continued to be useful to VFD through cartography.

And regarding the name The Great Unknown, this is a reference to the fact that the entity's identity is a secret and not lethality.

[Tiran O'Saurus]

Yeah, but it wouldn't be a secret if people could leave and tell others what it's like inside. The Great Unknown can't remain that way if anyone can discuss it. It's not necessarily lethal, but entering the Great Unknown has the same effect to the outside world as if you'd died.

The great cartographer is a thematic parallel (you claimed an entire movie was a thematic parallel once, so don't act like this is unheard of), and the only "specific knowledge" Lemony has about the Quagmires in TE is that they're in "dark and damp" circumstances, which conveniently can describe the innards of either a submarine or a stomach.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Jul 16, 2024 19:42:29 GMT -5 Tiran O'Saurus said:

Yeah, but it wouldn't be a secret if people could leave and tell others what it's like inside. The Great Unknown can't remain that way if anyone can discuss it. It's not necessarily lethal, but entering the Great Unknown has the same effect to the outside world as if you'd died.

The great cartographer is a thematic parallel (you claimed an entire movie was a thematic parallel once, so don't act like this is unheard of), and the only "specific knowledge" Lemony has about the Quagmires in TE is that they're in "dark and damp" circumstances, which conveniently can describe the innards of either a submarine or a stomach.

The question is how Lemony could know exactly when the Quagmires entered these humid conditions. I didn't say that Lemony revealed what the conditions were, just that Lemony knew exactly the timing. Furthermore, the fact that few VFD members know what happens to those who join and eventually end up leaving the TGU does not take away from the enigmatic nature of the entity. After all, those who use the TGU (voluntarily or not) simply don't reveal what's inside. The act of not disclosing may just be a personal choice, not an impossibility. Lemony evidently knows what TGU is and voluntarily decided never to reveal it.

[MisterM]

Well, first of all I agree that the reference to Lemony knowing a great cartogropher is definitley intended to be a reference to an adult, grown up Quigley. It is not just a parallel, i feel. However, the authorial intent between TSS and TE may well have changed since that point, so one could easily retcon this to be a parallel if that is the reading that one so wished, but ultimately I would agree with Jean about this.

I would not agree, however, that the survival of Quigley, the quagmires, or any of those involved in entering the great unkown is the means by which Lemony is aware of when such an event happened - quite the contrary. The SSHAMH was destroyed, an event that Lemony could well have been aware of by any other number of means, not least the fact that his sister was a part of the whole cataclysm. And as for knowing that someone shouted Violets name? Well, either the information was passed on via the Bauds, or simple extrapolation as so much of Lemonys work must and can be. So no, I don't buy that.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

The fact that someone shouted Violet's name came to Lemony through what the Baudelaires wrote in the island's book. They got this information from Kit. But the precision of when the house collapsed is too specific.

However, it is technically possible that while Kit was in labor she gave some actional information that allowed the Baudelaires to know the exact time of events and allowed them to write about it. However, I don't see why Kit would talk about this. (Maybe getting a little delirious before dying?)

And of course... The fact that those Quagmire entered the entity is a deduction on Kit Snicket's part, due to the fact that she didn't see exactly what happened at the exact moment they all disappeared from the surface of the ocean. It is possible that they just submerged due to some unknown factor and then managed to come back for air a few feet away from Kit's sight. Quigley and the others may have been rescued later (in some damp condition, like a boat or submarine) and then becoming an adult. The fact is that Lemony knows what happened to them and knows when it happened. This seems to me to indicate that he obtained specific information, which Kit had no reason to say in such a precise way.

This is the kind of exaggeratedly accurate information that the character Lemony Snicket appreciates so much. I imagine him interviewing one of the survivors: "Can you confirm that the moon was in exactly that position?" or "Was your watch working when you passed that place?"


Subtly changing the subject, the name Violet mentioned out of context is something that really intrigues me. The idea that Quigley shouted Violet's name because she saw someone inside TGU is amusing, but admittedly lacking in evidence. Still, it's intriguing. This is the second time that Quigley mentions Violet's name completely out of context or without an easily identifiable valid purpose. In the letter he sent to the Q submarine, he didn't know that Violet, Klaus and Sunny would read the message. Yet he mentioned Violet's name out of context. And the same goes for the scene where the TGU appears. This is intriguing because it seems like it's something the author put in there on purpose and emphasized. What does that mean? There must be some connection.

[Glittery666]

I also have to agree with Jean on this one. The great cartographer is definitely a reference to Quigley. Lemony knowing about the destruction of the SSHAMH isn't necessarily a clue to another since he could've found out in any number of ways.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Jul 17, 2024 18:43:36 GMT -5 Glittery666 said:

I also have to agree with Jean on this one. The great cartographer is definitely a reference to Quigley. Lemony knowing about the destruction of the SSHAMH isn't necessarily a clue to another since he could've found out in any number of ways.

So this is it. And honestly, in TBL there is a reference to other orphans besides the Baudelaires. The simplest and most coherent reading is that it's just Baudelaires like the Quagmires who survived. Dante argued that Daniel Handler wanted to leave the question open. But nothing more fair than him revealing in TBL (a more limited book) that the Baudelaires and Quagmires were alive. I believe Daniel's intention is to publish TBL after TE.

[Glittery666]

I think you(and Dante)hit the nail right on the head. DH probably wanted it to be ambiguous but TBL was a good place for a (heavily implied) reveal since it was both published later and is a little harder to get a hold of.

[Uncle Algernon]

As no one had mentoned it, I thought I'd pop in and make a note of the Snicket Sleuth's exposé on the matter of the Great Unknown, which highlights a scenario in which it could have been at once a Bombinating Beast and a force for salvation, and suggests, in fact, that various characters' earlier fear of it could only have been predicated on the assumption that it was a (hostile) submarine — because, he observes, staying silent could only disrupt a submarine's sonar (which is passive), not a biological sonar (which is active). Hence, it's not as simple as “if it was a creature they're dead, if it was a submarine they survived”.

And of course, with regards to the dark-and-damp of the Quagmires' situation, even if we do take it to be the stomach of a hungry beastie, I wouldn't say it guarantees their deaths. I don't think the malleability of the ASOUEverse's reality rules out a Jonah-and-the-Whale/Pinocchio situation, with the unfortunate Bombinating-Beast-chow surviving long enough in the literal belly of the beast to cook up some clever way to get themselves sneezed out or vomited out or whatever you please.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

I'm glad this passive and active sonar thing has actually gained some notoriety. I was the person behind the concept and discussed it with Snicket Sleuth. I also discussed the possibility of the giant question mark-shaped animal being able to carry people. And I discussed the fact that Captain E, believing it was a submarine, showed fear, and in TE the entity emerged from the water, and yet the captain showed no fear.

If it were the submarine he would have been afraid, so if it wasn't the submarine he wasn't afraid. The simplest answer is that either the animal is not hostile or it can be controlled in some way.

And honestly, I think Captain W's departure from the submarine in TGG has something to do with the presence of the TGU there. The captain's movement was simply too fast compared to the submarine Q itself. And he ended up in a place full of algae, which implies a location very close to the sea, which suggests that he was transported by something capable of moving through seawater. And Phil disappeared. He must have been in the belly of the beast.

[Uncle Algernon]

Ah, good to hear from you! A great discovery, yes. And am I understanding you correctly that all along you envisioned transportation-by-tame-Bombinating-Beast as involving a voluntary Jonah situation? I must say from prior descriptions of the theory I'd pictured it as something more along the lines of being carried on a dolphin's back.

I wonder, too, if there is such a thing as a question-mark-shaped submarine for which Olaf and Widdershins might be mistaking the real beastie(s). If Hangfire(?) had an octopus-shaped submarine constructed, why shouldn't he create a fake Bombinating Beast? It would have been good insurance, a means to keep the mystique alive with controlled sightings if something befell his biological creation.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

I truly believe that Daniel Handler's original intention in TGG was that the submarine that Captain W fears is not actually shaped like a question mark. When Captain W explained what it could be, he compared it to a shadow. If we think about it more literally, when a shadow is projected against a wall, what we see is a two-dimensional projection of something three-dimensional. Sonar basically shows this two-dimensional projection on its display. Proof of this is the submarine Carmelita itself. On sonar, the two-dimensional projection is in the shape of an eye. It is true that many believe that this "eye" is the symbol for VFD, but this is not the case. This is just a coincidence.

The "eye" shape is due to the projection of the submarine's tentacles that make the two-dimensional projection look like an oval surrounded by eyelashes, and this resembles the shape of an eye.

Look:

Chapter 4 TGG:

"What was that third shape?” Violet asked. The captain shook his head again. “Something very bad,” he said. “Even worse than Olaf, probably. I told you Baudelaires that there is evil you cannot even imagine.” “We don’t have to imagine it,” Klaus said. “We saw it there on the screen.”
"That screen is nothing,” the captain said. “It’s just a piece of equipment, aye? There was a philosopher who said that all of life is just shadows. He said that people were just sitting in a cave, watching shadows on the cave wall. Aye—shadows of something much bigger and grander than themselves. Well, that sonar detector is like our cave wall, showing us the shape of things much more powerful and terrifying.”


•••

The second submarine was in the shape of a giant octopus, with an enormous metal dome for a head and two wide portholes for eyes. A real octopus, of course, has eight legs, but this submarine had many more. What had appeared to be eyelashes on the sonar screen were really small metal tubes, protruding from the body of the octopus and circling in the water, making thousands of bubbles that hurried toward the surface as if they were frightened of the underwater craft.

Chapter 5

Think of the crafts we saw on the sonar screen! Think of Count Olaf’s enormous submarine, and the even more enormous one that chased it away! Aye! There’s always something more enormous and more terrifying on our tails!

So, it is clear how the sonar display works. The display shows a two-dimensional projection, and Captain W, when comparing it to the shadow of a wall, was talking about this. So, the submarine that appears on the sonar as a question mark does not have the three-dimensional shape of a question mark, and that is what the captain meant. The real shape is much more frightening. The sea serpent BB, when seen on a sonar, may or may not appear in this shape, depending on its relative position. In any case, the Baudelaires had partial visual contact with the creature: they saw the silhouette of a sea serpent. So, what was near the submarine near the end of TGG was the serpent. Captain W himself also had visual contact with the serpent at the end of TE. Kit herself also saw and described it as having the shape of a question mark. So, these visual contacts were certainly with the sea serpent and not with the submarine. Which is surprisingly good news. The hostile entity is the submarine, not the serpent.


After all, the sea serpent maintained visual contact with the Q submarine, but did not attack it. (Probably the fact that the children remained quiet did not scare the sea monster).

Who was chasing the submarine Carmelita at the beginning of the TGG story? It is not possible to know for sure, but both Olaf and Captain W believed it was the submarine and not the monster. Both showed fear of someone worse than Olaf and more powerful than Olaf.Of course, in my headcanon this person would be Eligton Feint. But, that's just my fan heart speaking louder.

[Uncle Algernon]

Nov 12, 2024 9:53:19 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

Who was chasing the submarine Carmelita at the beginning of the TGG story? It is not possible to know for sure, but both Olaf and Captain W believed it was the submarine and not the monster. Both showed fear of someone worse than Olaf and more powerful than Olaf.Of course, in my headcanon this person would be Ellnigton Feint. But, that's just my fan heart speaking louder.

Hmm. Intriguing, but in your view, where did that submarine come from?

By the way, it may or may not be important that Widdershins is making a common but important mistake in his reference to Plato's allegory of the cave: it's often glossed as if the shadows in the cave were shadows of things in the real, surface world, but in fact, as originally phrased, the shadows are shadow-puppets done within the cave with small, meaningless objects. The prisoners who try to guess what the objects casting the shadows must really be like are not simply trying to extrapolate on distorted shadow, they're not even remotely in contact with the real objects at all.