Mally Sebald
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Post by Mally Sebald on Nov 16, 2024 13:38:00 GMT -5
Or do you mean that Olaf being in a good mood on the day of the fire contradicts the idea that he'd be one of these bad-tempered arsonists who are driven to treat bottles irresponsibly? Yes, that was what I meant. Although I'm starting to go back on that |
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Mally Sebald
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Post by Mally Sebald on Nov 16, 2024 14:14:36 GMT -5
And regarding the importance of the royal gardens and the poisonous plant, we can see that even in TBL this is mentioned. So, there must be some important subplot in the story. For me, this is what makes the most sense: Olaf began his fight against VFD by murdering his parents, and to do so he stole a poisonous plant from the royal gardens and set the place on fire. He gained supporters in the fight against VFD, namely Eleonora Poe. Before being fired, Jacques Snicket started an investigation and published an article in the newspaper reaffirming Olaf's guilt. Geraldine Julienne denied the article, but the members of VFD were alerted to Count Olaf's true intentions. After the death of Olaf's parents, Kit Snicket, Dewey, Beatrice and Bertrand began the investigation into who was responsible for the murder. The murder weapons passed through the hands of Kit and Beatrice during the opera night. Over the years, the judicial investigation dragged on, as it was still necessary to connect the poison in the dart to a specific plan, and justice was slow to act. In the meantime, the Anwhistle Schism occurred, in which a fire was needed to stop the proliferation of the deadly MM fungus. While Beatrice's plan focused on finding a cure, Olaf and Fernald were used by one of the factions to set fire to the cause of the problem, that is, the AA facilities, and end the threat of the fungus. Because of this act, a truce was called between Olaf and the rest of VFD, but in reality it was the beginning of an undeclared war that began between Olaf and VFD. This truce ended when the three Baudelaires ended up in Olaf's house, and he began to act to steal one of VFD's greatest resources: the Baudelaire inheritance. I love this theory! This is so well thought out and I appreciate your contribution. In the last few days, I've tried to piece together my own theory regarding the matter. I believe that either Beatrice or Bertrand murdered Olaf's parents while Kit Snicket seduced Olaf which led to him proposing. This could be because Olaf's father was rich, or because he was a Count and Counts, often, have a claim to land. Had Kit successfully married Olaf, then murdered him, she'd have come into either land or money. Olaf discovered that Beatrice/Bertrand murdered his parents, and he became enraged. He learns that Kit was involved with them, and the marriage is then called off. I believe that Olaf burnt down the Royal Gardens and removed a poisonous plant in an attempt to incriminate Beatrice or Bertrand for the murder of his parents. Of course, he had committed a crime to do this and then pinned the blame on Lemony (He likely planned to pin it on Kit and was too in love to do so, but that's pure speculation as is most of my theory). Jacques Snicket attempts to defend Lemony, but is unable to. Lemony then fakes his death and the Baudelaire parents move to the island. My theory relies purely on speculation though. And I loved yours! I love how it ties in to the MM and Fernald. (And I'll certainly be reading the fanfic) |
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Nov 16, 2024 14:30:58 GMT -5
I'm glad to find a supporter of the "VFD is evil, after all" idea. I'm more of a supporter of the "VFD is neither good nor evil. It's a secret organization formed by many members and that tends to form factions". I'm more inclined to believe that Kit, Lemony, Jacques, Beatrice and Bertrand are good people, and that sometimes in extreme situations, they may resort to violence and betrayal, but that they wouldn't plan it in detail and in advance, and that they would never be proud of it. About my fanfic, you can read it here: asoue.proboards.com/thread/36242/untie-silence-knot |
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Mally Sebald
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Post by Mally Sebald on Nov 16, 2024 15:04:49 GMT -5
I'm glad to find a supporter of the "VFD is evil, after all" idea. I'm more of a supporter of the "VFD is neither good nor evil. It's a secret organization formed by many members and that tends to form factions". I'm more inclined to believe that Kit, Lemony, Jacques, Beatrice and Bertrand are good people, and that sometimes in extreme situations, they may resort to violence and betrayal, but that they wouldn't plan it in detail and in advance, and that they would never be proud of it. About my fanfic, you can read it here: asoue.proboards.com/thread/36242/untie-silence-knotMy views on VFD aren't that they're necessarily evil...just that they've been (much like the Church of England) controlled by many different groups of people with different intentions and methods of working. I think that Kit, Lemony, Jacques, Bertrand and Beatrice weren't good people, but became good people when the VFD brainwashing had worn off (This all ties into a theory I have about Georgina Orwell). |
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Nov 16, 2024 15:28:05 GMT -5
With regards to the Olaf/Kit romance as Marvelous Marriage-style embezzling scheme, I definitely think there's something to it, but find it hard to credit its maximally cynical interpretation that Kit really did just want Olaf's inheritance, and that the Snickets & Baudelaires conspired to kill Olaf's parents as part of the same scheme. My suspicion is that this is what Olaf thinks, but he's wrong. I think Kit loved him sincerely, and although she certainly would have had an interest in using what was to be "their" fortune to further various benevolent V.F.D. operations, she hoped her husband-to-be would participate willingly in such efforts. So they're courting, perhaps engaged; and every so often she brings up the idea of using Olaf's money for Good, once he inherits it… but then, for completely unrelated reasons, Olaf's parents* are assassinated with poison darts, and Olaf comes to believe that Kit was involved, because she smuggled the darts to Beatrice. (It does not strictly speaking matter if they were indeed taking out the elder Count & Countess, but for non-pecuniary reasons; or if there is more to the story than meets the eye and Olaf was wrong to blame Kit.) And instantly he jumps to the conclusion that the whole romance was a sham to steal his fortune, refusing to listen as a torn Kit insists that she does love him but declines to apologise or explain about what she did at the opera (because it's not her secret to tell/he wouldn't understand/it would incriminate others if Olaf doesn't back down/etc.). This kind of entanglement and series of misunderstandings feels more properly tragic, and indeed, operatic to me, and as such more fitting.
Regardless, an interesting corollary of the theory that Olaf is as matter of fact impoverished by the time of TBB specifically because Kit did get away with draining his funds before they parted ways, as the Sleuth proposes, is that it implies the marriage actually did go through. Yet clearly Olaf does not believe himself to be legally married by TBB. Was there a divorce, or a TBB-stye annulment-by-technicality? Personally I think the marriage never happened and Olaf squandered his inheritance all by himself, but in hindsight, he believes that he was only so reckless because he inherited too young, and thus tells himself that in a more convoluted sense it's nevertheless the Baudelaires' fault he's broke — not because they stole the money directly, but because they orphaned him when he was an impulsive teenager rather than a mature man who could handle the estate responsibly. FOOTNOTE:
*: We typically assume that both the Count and Countess were killed at the same time, but is there strong evidence of this? If Olaf only had one living parent left by then, a single individual being killed by poison dart would still "make him an orphan". This is what the Netflix series goes with in its considerably different account of the opera murder, of course, with Mama Olaf having already "sadly perished in a fire", and only Olaf Snr. being killed at the opera. (I think the implication was that the Sinister Duo were responsible for the mother's death, an early casualty of the nascent Schism.)
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Nov 16, 2024 15:49:44 GMT -5
The Olaf family fortune must have been donated to the VFD, as well as the Snicket family fortune at some point. I remember that secret organizations often work this way. And the Baudelaire family was simply responsible for taking care of a good part of the organization's money. Because it is a secret organization, the organization's money must be in the name of individuals, not legal entities. How this money is spent is decided in committee meetings, as recorded in LSTUA. That is why Bertrand and Beatrice, despite being very "rich", did not have servants. The mansion and the money were not really theirs, they belonged to the organization. Their task as volunteers was to take care of the organization's assets, namely the library, the mansion and the fortune.
That is why handing over the mansion at 667 Dark Avenue to Jerome, someone who was not a member of the VFD, was a failed strategy and made in a moment of desperation. By marrying Jerome, Esmé and Olaf took another step towards their goal: stealing the organization's funds. In this case, she wanted to steal the property's ownership rights. They did the same with the Quagmire fortune, trying to steal the sapphires, which were assets of the organization. When they fail to steal the properties, they burn them down through arson: a severe impact on the organization's resources.
It is no wonder that Josephine prefers to live in a place that has no added value, even though it belongs to the organization. Still, she is terrified of real estate agents, who in many cases are VFD agents linked to obtaining assets for the organization. According to Kit in TPP, these agents were even linked to the undeclared war that was going on between the factions.
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Nov 16, 2024 15:54:46 GMT -5
I don't think Eleanor Poe would have let Jacques Snicket print the truth about Olaf's supporters for very long. It's interesting that you take it for granted that Eleanora Poe is a knowing associate, and not simply gullible. I think TUA indicates the latter, with her telegram where she charmingly confesses: "I am beginning to think that some of the stories I have published in The Daily Punctilio are not true after all". If Eleanora were a true villain, however, this would raise the interesting possibility that she manipulates her brother's decisions in the Baudelaires' case to some extent, even though he would remain the oblivious fool we know. Honestly speaking, I think the issue involving the burning of the royal gardens and the poisoned plant seems to me to be involved with the poisoned darts. It's the only canonical connection that seems to make sense to me. I think people don't make this connection because of a conceptual error (…) I think it's also because, even though they both have "poison" in the name, it seems less than obvious to me that the thing to do with a stolen rare poisonous plant is to coat some darts in its poison. I think generally the assumption is that V.F.D. would have supplied ready-coated poison darts, with no need for this D.I.Y. approach. Moreover, if all you need is some kind of deadly poison, there are surely easier places for a criminal to get it than by robbing the Royal Gardens and destroying the entire place to cover your tracks. I have to believe that the point of stealing a rare Poisonous Plant is to obtain an untraceable poison — one with whose effects coroners aren't familiar, and which it will be easy to make look like an accidental or natural death. Whereas administering it with a poison dart which could be found on the body would nullify that advantage! (Actually, for the same reason that a venom sample was a good way to kill Dr Montgomery,the Poisonous Plant would be a very good way to murder a gardener or botanist without arousing suspicion. I wonder. Offhand, the only botanist who comes up in ASOUE is the one from whom Kit and Quigley steal a helicopter off-screen in The Penultimate Peril. The ludicrous fact that a botanist would have a helicopter to hand suggests they may have been part of V.F.D., but of course, that botanist appears to be alive. Then again, Olaf's plans may have been derailed before he ever got to use the Plant in the intended fashion.)
(…) the evidence points to Olaf himself being the one who must have killed his own father using poisoned darts. A provocative theory, but I'm unconvinced. In narrative terms, Olaf being a self-made orphan would frustratingly pass the buck of his "start of darkness", since what looks like the foundational tragedy of his life would instead be an early crime, and perhaps his darkest crime at that. Besides, you're right that Olaf doesn't seem overcome with resentment against the Baudelaires' parents when he brings up the poison darts, but for the same reason, wouldn't you expect him to admit it if he'd done the deed himself? "The weapon that made me an orphan" would be a curiously coy way to put it when he is well past disguising his villainy to the Baudelaires. If he were guilty, I would expect him to gleefully admit to it, just to see the looks on the orphans' faces at the thought of how low Olaf can sink.
For the reasons you state, and as alluded to above, I'm not sure the Baudelaires & Snickets killed the elder Count (and/or Countess). But I don't think we can rule it out, especially if we suppose that Olaf's murdered parent was a really nasty piece of work, perhaps one who had a specific villainous scheme in progress that needed to be stopped. Even at the cost of a man's life killed in cold blood, I could see Beatrice and Kit looking back on the assassination with pride, if by killing him they were saving other, innocent lives the elder Count was holding hostage, or something similar. And I do tend to think, even if the Baudelaires and Snickets were completely innocent, that Olaf believes they had something to do with it. Sure, he doesn't bring it up in that conversation with the children, but it's just a quick exchange while there is — to say the least — rather a lot going on. And him no longer foaming at the mouth at the very idea makes sense to me. As far as he knows, everyone responsible, aside from Kit about whom his feelings are more complicated, is long dead. It's an old wound that he already got revenge for.
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Mally Sebald
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Post by Mally Sebald on Nov 16, 2024 15:57:12 GMT -5
Regardless, an interesting corollary of the theory that Olaf is as matter of fact impoverished by the time of TBB specifically because Kit did get away with draining his funds before they parted ways, as the Sleuth proposes, is that it implies the marriage actually did go through. Yet clearly Olaf does not believe himself to be legally married by TBB. Was there a divorce, or a TBB-stye annulment-by-technicality? Personally I think the marriage never happened and Olaf squandered his inheritance all by himself, but in hindsight, he believes that he was only so reckless because he inherited too young, and thus tells himself that in a more convoluted sense it's nevertheless the Baudelaires' fault he's broke — not because they stole the money directly, but because they orphaned him when he was an impulsive teenager rather than a mature man who could handle the estate responsibly.
Unless of course, his last will and testament was forged? Maybe to allow the current fiance, Kit Snicket, a right to the fortune which was then distributed to the Baudelaires and the Snickets evenly. |
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Mally Sebald
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Post by Mally Sebald on Nov 16, 2024 16:04:07 GMT -5
That is why handing over the mansion at 667 Dark Avenue to Jerome, someone who was not a member of the VFD, was a failed strategy and made in a moment of desperation. By marrying Jerome, Esmé and Olaf took another step towards their goal: stealing the organization's funds. In this case, she wanted to steal the property's ownership rights. They did the same with the Quagmire fortune, trying to steal the sapphires, which were assets of the organization. When they fail to steal the properties, they burn them down through arson: a severe impact on the organization's resources. This is extremely interesting and something I can really get behind. I also agree with the idea that Josephine's fear of realtors stems from VFD. But I don't agree with the idea that Olaf's fortune was donated to VFD, because... he's a part of VFD. Like the firestarters are still part of VFD, so if fortunes were really just able to be distributed... would he not have received one from the firestarting side? Or received his own? |
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Nov 16, 2024 16:19:32 GMT -5
So... The purpose of stealing the poisonous plant was not necessarily to kill one's own parents, but rather to kill their enemies, whoever they may be. If we stop to think about it, Olaf and Esmé presented something potentially dangerous at the building committee meeting. Something capable of making those present be manipulated by their demands. Something capable of being carried in a small container. A poisonous plant, a flower with poisonous pollen. I think that fits perfectly. Something that could indeed be used as a weapon in different ways and, most importantly, something that could be cultivated. The destruction of the royal gardens was not necessarily to hide the theft, but perhaps to prevent the creation of antidotes and, most importantly, to prevent others from having access to a weapon with similar destructive potential. By killing his own parents, Olaf would have only used one of the possible means of using the poisonous plant. A poison dart identifies the cause of death, but not necessarily the killer.
And besides, we know exactly what caused the turning point in Olaf's life. First, as indicated in TBL, he was never a good boy. And second, as indicated in the short story about the old count who sent his son to learn languages, the relationship between Olaf and his father must never have been good. And lastly, it was Lemony's bad review that made him become a full-blown murderer: he was going to kill Beatrice and Lemony. It wasn't the death of his parents.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Nov 16, 2024 16:27:27 GMT -5
That is why handing over the mansion at 667 Dark Avenue to Jerome, someone who was not a member of the VFD, was a failed strategy and made in a moment of desperation. By marrying Jerome, Esmé and Olaf took another step towards their goal: stealing the organization's funds. In this case, she wanted to steal the property's ownership rights. They did the same with the Quagmire fortune, trying to steal the sapphires, which were assets of the organization. When they fail to steal the properties, they burn them down through arson: a severe impact on the organization's resources. This is extremely interesting and something I can really get behind. I also agree with the idea that Josephine's fear of realtors stems from VFD. But I don't agree with the idea that Olaf's fortune was donated to VFD, because... he's a part of VFD. Like the firestarters are still part of VFD, so if fortunes were really just able to be distributed... would he not have received one from the firestarting side? Or received his own? I think it is very important to make one thing very clear: there is no incendiary side of VFD in the form of a structured secret organization. There are people who were in VFD and no longer agree with VFD's ideology or VFD's methods. They do not have a large network of followers internationally and a defined mechanism of action. That is why Olaf had to convince Georgina to support him. That is why Olaf formed his troupe without telling them many details. That is why the man with a beard and no hair and the woman with hair and no beard have to take personal action destroying things, even though they are people of great importance in society. That is why Madame Lulu is so lost. That is why three brothers live together managing the same hotel. The "incendiary" side of VFD is not a secret organization. It is the exact opposite of an organization: they are disgruntled individuals who may or may not work in agreement, and do not follow a formal set of rules. Count Olaf himself describes himself as self-employed in T.C.C. |
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Mally Sebald
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Post by Mally Sebald on Nov 16, 2024 16:30:04 GMT -5
That makes more sense, thank you!
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Nov 16, 2024 16:55:48 GMT -5
That makes more sense, thank you! Thanks! Actually, when you think about it, the fact that there was no structured organization is what made Olaf lose. In TEE, Olaf initially got everything he wanted. There was nothing more to do than wait. But Esme had her own plans. And he had to share his authority with her. |
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Post by Uncle Algernon on Nov 16, 2024 17:26:57 GMT -5
And besides, we know exactly what caused the turning point in Olaf's life. First, as indicated in TBL, he was never a good boy. That's one thing — but I'm inclined to picture something like the Netflixverse flashbacks' depiction of Young Olaf as, like, a scamp. A scallywag. A bit of a prat perhaps. Perhaps never heroic-volunteer material, but neither was he always someone who would kill without a second thought, I think. There had to be something Kit saw in him back in the day, and something she broke up with him over. And lastly, it was Lemony's bad review that made him become a full-blown murderer: he was going to kill Beatrice and Lemony. It wasn't the death of his parents. But that play was called One Last Warning to Those Who Try to Stand in My Way, and was a thinly-disguised way to straight-up rob the audience. Moreover it already posits Lemony/Beatrice on one side and Olaf/Esmé on the other as established de facto "factions". I would place it as postdating the falling-out which I imagine to have coincided with the Olaf/Kit break-up. Olaf had already broken away from the Snicket-Baudelaire circles by the time of this incident, he just hoped to simply intimidate them into leaving him alone as opposed to going directly to war with them. What I am looking for is what turned Olaf away from working with Lemony & Co., and caused his relationship with Kit to end. I think the murder of his parents, and Kit's possible implication in the same, is an attractive candidate for that event.
Note that I don't necessarily see it as fueling a single-minded, angry vengefulness, so much as breaking any faith he had in his friends, and convincing him to fully adopt a nihilistic worldview where everyone is out for themselves, and so he may as well nakedly pursue his own self-interest without worrying about noble goals and innocent lives: after all, even Kit, the person he most admired as genuinely noble, had in his view become involved in a heinous act. Why should he keep holding himself to higher standards?
Of course, from your message, perhaps you think there was simply never a time when Olaf "tried" to be "good" — that the Olaf/Kit romance was always a crossing of boundaries. I don't think the evidence rules it out, but I find it a bit dull as a story, and it doesn't fit the vibe of Olaf's death scene in the end, which derives its power from its implication that Olaf was not always as we've known him. (Which doesn't necessarily mean he was ever a saint.)
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Post by Tiran O'Saurus on Nov 16, 2024 22:52:51 GMT -5
I don't think Olaf was evil from the start. I think the Baudelaires really did kill his parents with poison darts. I don't think any of this has to do with the poisonous plant, though. The fact that Strauss is currently hearing the case in TBB, combined with how quickly we see a case go to trial in TPP, makes me think the burning of the Royal Gardens was only a week or so before TBB started. The pile of dirt is still there, not cleared away. The murder at La Forza Del Destino was a few years before the start of the series, judging by how the Baudelaires remember it in TPP. If the plant did anything, it was done during the course of the series. Maybe it's how Olaf killed Foreman Firstein?
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