Dead Or Alive??

[MontyInTheSnow]

We saw the blaze sweep through The Hotel Denoument in the last book, but is there actually anyone confirmed dead? It may be a stupid question but it was the only thing that left me puzzled within the book, any help would be appreciated.

[Dante]

Nobody's actually confirmed dead, although:

• Justice Strauss probably is, as she was stranded on top of the hotel.
  
• Jerome might well be, as he was last seen being pushed about by one of the sinister duo.
  
• The sinister duo are almost certainly alive, being on the ground floor, unblindfolded, and they realised that Olaf had set a fire.
  
• Frank and Ernest probably survived, too - ground floor again, and I imagine they know their own hotel.
  
• Esmé and Carmelita probably died, since they rather ominously said that they'd find their own way, and even if they didn't die then the book implies they never meet the Baudelaires again.
  
• Mr. Poe probably died, as he was showing no signs of leaving and didn't think there was a fire.
  
• Sir and Charles might well have, and I personally like to think they did, as some main characters need to have died.
  
• Remora and Bass might have survived, if the former hadn't choked on a banana and retired and the latter hadn't been arrested for bank robbery. If Remora survived for those reasons, Nero and Bass will have, but if Bass survived, that doesn't necessarily mean that Nero and Remora are alive. I like to think that only Bass survived.
  
• I like to think the "freaks" survived, though.
  
• I like Geraldine, but for some reason I think it'd be more interesting if she died.
  
• Hal? Um, dead I guess. Although, considering his atrocious eyesight, it'd be ironic if, even blindfolded, he managed to get out.
  
• The V.F.D. elder and the Volunteer Fighting Disease I think should have survived, as they have a beautiful friendship.
  
• Mrs. Morrow and Mr. Lesko - meh. They were arguing at the end, which doesn't look good.
  
• The waiters from the Café Salmonella and the Anxious Clown I like to think survived.

[Grace]

Esme and Carmelita are almost certainly dead, as well as Justice Strauss. I'd like it as well if the freaks survived but they probably didn't.
I'd like to see Frernest in the next book; they're interesting characters and I'd like to see more of them.

[joker]

Awww man! I hope GJ survved! She's my inspiration!
I hope Carmelita died but not Esme. I KNOW Aura of Menaceers are NOT dead, and most likely Nero and Remora died, since Roman emporer Nero died playing violin while Rome burned all down...
I love the Anxious Clown and Cafe Salmonella waitors, so I like to think they're alive.
Other than that, I really hope Hal lived. He is DA BOMB!
Sir and Charles, I don't care about them really at ALL.
Justice Strauss DID die!!!!!! Read it again! It said the building gave a lurch, sending the judge tumbling to the ground below! Bleive me, it's there.
Jerome, mehh, don't care.
Frankernest- don't care.
And Poe, dear Mr. Poe, let his guts rot in hell is all I can say.
Just kidding! But yeah, I hate him anyways.

[Dante]

joker said:

Justice Strauss DID die!!!!!! Read it again! It said the building gave a lurch, sending the judge tumbling to the ground below! Bleive me, it's there.

Actually, it's ambiguous as to whether the ground meant the very ground, i.e. the earth next to the hotel and the pond, or whether it meant the surface of the hotel roof. Given the fact that very little importance is attached to the sentence, and the Baudelaires don't gasp in dismay at what they've done or anything, I'd say it's probably the latter.

[Ennui]

joker said:

most likely Nero and Remora died, since Roman emporer Nero died playing violin while Rome burned all down...

Argh. I have to correct you there. That's a popular misconception.

-Nero didn't die on that occasion, but lived on for years to be ultimately murdered in a palace coup. In fact, he might well have started the fire, as he needed space to build his great project the Golden House.

-The violin wasn't invented, of course, and the ancient accounts have Nero instead reciting Vergil's version of the burning of Troy. Popular myth turned that into the "fiddling while Rome burnt" story.

-Only part of Rome was destroyed, chiefly the foul and cramped streets of the plebs.

Now, about deaths and survivals...I don't think I'll contradict Dante. I think it's possible, though, that the characters left at the hotel simply won't return to the story in any form, and their fates will remain mysterious.

[Dante]

ennui said:

I think it's possible, though, that the characters left at the hotel simply won't return to the story in any form, and their fates will remain mysterious.

Actually, that's exactly what I think. I was really just going through what I should like to have happened to each character, what I would decide of their fates if I were to write a fanfic or something.

Oh, and I just remembered - Frank and Ernest almost must be alive. Olaf said that (thanks to him) they were the only survivors of their entire family, and Lemony alluded in Chapter Seven to how the remaining members of the Denouement family are now working in less famous inns. I'll go find the quotes.

The word "denouement" is not only the name of a hotel or the family who manages it, particularly nowadays, when the hotel and all its secrets have almost been forgotten, and the surviving members of the family have changed their names and are working in smaller, less glamorous inns.
TPP - p175 (Chapter Eight)

"You can't fool me!" Count Olaf growled. "I wasn't born yesterday, you know! You're one of those idiotic twins! I should know! Thanks to me, you two are the only survivors of the entire family!"
TPP - p207

However, Dewey's existence could go to show that Olaf isn't entirely reliable in his estimates of how much of a family he's destroyed.

[Ernest D]

ffwf said:

ennui said:

I think it's possible, though, that the characters left at the hotel simply won't return to the story in any form, and their fates will remain mysterious.

Actually, that's exactly what I think. I was really just going through what I should like to have happened to each character, what I would decide of their fates if I were to write a fanfic or something.

Oh, and I just remembered - Frank and Ernest almost must be alive. Olaf said that (thanks to him) they were the only survivors of their entire family, and Lemony alluded in Chapter Seven to how the remaining members of the Denouement family are now working in less famous inns. I'll go find the quotes.

The word "denouement" is not only the name of a hotel or the family who manages it, particularly nowadays, when the hotel and all its secrets have almost been forgotten, and the surviving members of the family have changed their names and are working in smaller, less glamorous inns.
TPP - p175 (Chapter Eight)

"You can't fool me!" Count Olaf growled. "I wasn't born yesterday, you know! You're one of those idiotic twins! I should know! Thanks to me, you two are the only survivors of the entire family!"
TPP - p207

However, Dewey's existence could go to show that Olaf isn't entirely reliable in his estimates of how much of a family he's destroyed.

Count Olaf is a little slow on the uptake. I don't think he even reads the books.

[cwm3]

harpooon said:

ffwf said:

Actually, that's exactly what I think. I was really just going through what I should like to have happened to each character, what I would decide of their fates if I were to write a fanfic or something.

Oh, and I just remembered - Frank and Ernest almost must be alive. Olaf said that (thanks to him) they were the only survivors of their entire family, and Lemony alluded in Chapter Seven to how the remaining members of the Denouement family are now working in less famous inns. I'll go find the quotes.

The word "denouement" is not only the name of a hotel or the family who manages it, particularly nowadays, when the hotel and all its secrets have almost been forgotten, and the surviving members of the family have changed their names and are working in smaller, less glamorous inns.
TPP - p175 (Chapter Eight)

"You can't fool me!" Count Olaf growled. "I wasn't born yesterday, you know! You're one of those idiotic twins! I should know! Thanks to me, you two are the only survivors of the entire family!"
TPP - p207

However, Dewey's existence could go to show that Olaf isn't entirely reliable in his estimates of how much of a family he's destroyed.

Count Olaf is a little slow on the uptake. I don't think he even reads the books.

wait, what books?

I think some of the characters' fates might be revealed in The Beatrice Letters if it goes beyond when Beatrice died (presuming she's dead during ASOUE), or possibly Lemony might bring them up in Book 13.

[Ernest D]

cwm3 said:

harpooon said:

Count Olaf is a little slow on the uptake. I don't think he even reads the books.

wait, what books?

A Series of Unfortunate Events[/u], by Lemony Snicket.

[cwm3]

harpooon said:

A Series of Unfortunate Events

[/u], by Lemony Snicket. [/quote]

Why would Olaf even be aware of the books' existence? There are two main theories to when the Baudelaires' misfortunes happened;

(a) Several years after all the trouble, Snicket writes the books. The VFD schism is still ongoing. Olaf is likely dead at this point, but if he isn't then it makes no difference to the series.

(b) Snicket is one or two books behind the Baudelaires (so he's writing TAA when they are experiencing the events of TVV, and when they're on TSS he's on THH), so Olaf is still on the run, meaning he can't exactly stroll into a bookshop and buy a copy.

According to THH, Snicket doesn't know where the Baudelaires are now, or even if they are safe or alive, which doesn't contradict any of these theories, although it does contradict TUA, unless "the tale of three siblings, at least one of which is dead" was in fact referring to the Snicket siblings...

[Dante]

cwm3 said:

harpooon said:

A Series of Unfortunate Events

[/u], by Lemony Snicket. [/quote]

Why would Olaf even be aware of the books' existence? [/quote]

The U.A. - a man disguised as a cow, described by two friends of Mr. Snicket as "one of O.'s henchmen", goes out searching for Dr. Montgomery Montgomery's reptile collection. At the beginning of his quest, he reads The Reptile Room in a library. In TSS, Count Olaf strongly implies he has the reptile collection. Not conclusive proof, as some of it is ambiguous, but then there's directly conflicting evidence on both sides. But this does show that it's possible Olaf could be aware of the books. Key to understanding this debate, I think, is the fact that it was a joke and likely not meant to be taken seriously (and if it was, then that's off-topic, so I still win). And I don't intend to get drawn into a debate on the timing of the series here; that's a matter for another thread, which is lurking around somewhere and is entitled "Timing is Twisty," unless that was about something else.

unless "the tale of three siblings, at least one of which is dead" was in fact referring to the Snicket siblings...

In THH, Chapter 6, Lemony states that THH is not a tale of Lemony Snicket, it is a tale of Violet, Klaus, and Sunny, and says that it would be useless to tell the Snicket story. Since this strongly emphasises that the two (the Snicket story and the Baudelaire story) are separate, and since Lemony's siblings have been important to him for more of his life than the Baudelaires have - indeed, in TPP, he states that he gave up his "life's work" to research the Baudelaires (p252), therefore they are not his life's work, therefore he needn't be directly associated with them (and indeed, many of the supposed "alternate titles" given in the U.A. are clearly about Lemony's past, whereas only about two refer to the Baudelaires) - then I consider that title to have indeed referred to the Snicket siblings, particularly since we know that it's true of them whereas we don't know that it's true of the Baudelaires. Although again, there was a thread on that in AAppendices, although it's now locked.

Moving back to the topic and away from these tangents, please.

[Jacques the Environmentalist]

Frank and Ernest are ALIVE, in the 13 shocking secrets it says they should still be called triplets, the death of their brother does not change their birth identity.
I don't want Esme and Carmelita to die but it seems they certainly will.
Justice Strauss is almost certainly dead. on the roof as the fire spreads, how on earth could she get out? Climbing? Running to a lower level and jumping? Unlikely.
I'd hope Jerome was alive. But his seeming stupidity makes it look like he isn't.
The sinister duo are as alive as justice strauss is dead.
I would like Sir and Charles to survive. But since Charles caves to Sir and Sir won't listen to the Bauds I think they'll die.
I HOPE Hal survives, but there is his vision and such...
As for the others I'm too lazy to speculate.

[Dante]

mynamesjacques said:

Frank and Ernest are ALIVE, in the 13 shocking secrets it says they should still be called triplets, the death of their brother does not change their birth identity.

Nitpick: The second Snicket Book Blast, I believe it actually was. And I interpreted that response as being... not phrased with reference to events post-TPP as the question would have been a legitimate one between chapters ten and thirteen regardless of the fates of Frank and Ernest after that.

Basically, I'll argue against any case that puts it that any character must or must not have survived, because I feel that the entire purpose of Chapter Thirteen was that the fates of all the characters were meant to be ambiguous rather than, um, conclusible.

[Jacques the Environmentalist]

Whatever, the point is that for those two at least there's fairly conclusive evidence that they're alive, which is more than we can say for almost everyone else.
So. We could divide them into categories.
Almost surely dead:
Strauss
Sir+Charles
Jerome
Carm+Esme
Almost surely alive:
Beady+non beardy
The Denouements
Remora(the other teachers too?)

And to point your mistake:

Remora and Bass might have survived, if the former hadn't choked to death on a banana and retired

he most certainly couldn't retire after dying, he just choked and decided to retire. So we can assume then that Mr. Remora is alive after Hotel Denouement going up in flames can't we? *adds*