DID THEY ACTUALLY DIE?

[Dante]

lemonydrink said:

Hang on... how do we actually know that the ? is a submarine? All that Widdershins said is that there are things in this world too evil to know about... do we have evidence that it's a submarine?

On page 299 of TGG, Olaf, talking about the Question Mark, says "We don't want to show up on their sonar!" However, you can interpret that otherwise - the sonar being a natural sonar system of the sort used by some animals, "their" being used because of a lack of knowledge of the gender of the Question Mark's owner. There's also the fact that we don't know if Olaf knows that the Question Mark / Great Unknown is, so we might just be able to ignore his statement entirely; he fears it, but given that the thing is described as being much bigger than either the Carmelita or Queequeg (GG 85), it's worth running from.

Embedded Edit: Widdershins says, on page 107 of TGG, "Think of the crafts we saw on the sonar screen! Think of Count Olaf's enormous submarine, and the even more enormous one that chased it away!" If he knows what the Question Mark is - and he was willing to take his chances with it in The End - then it's a submarine, although he could once again be lying to protect Fiona and the Baudelaires.

Lemony, at the end of TGG, also says, "They could not even tell, just as I will not tell, if it was some horrifying mechanical device, such as a submarine, or some ghastly creature of the sea." (TGG 311)

If it has a non-metaphorical explanation in addition to the metaphorical one, I prefer to think it's a submarine. I consider it to have more interesting possibilities, although Lemony has said of The Bears' Famous Invasion of Sicily) that the presence of a sea monster automatically makes any story much more interesting.

The idea was that there was something out there, worse than Olaf. If we assume that ? is a submarine, then it can't belong to the arson side of VFD, because it's just as evil as Olaf (though perhaps it was the man with no hair and a beard, and the woman with hair and no beard?? They had an aura of menace...)

The sinister duo (as some fans call the man with a beard but no hair and the woman with hair but no beard) are apparently worse than Olaf; in TSS, they frighten him (TSS 123, 222), and a few of their arson-loving statements make him and Esmé uneasy (TSS 297). In TPP (page 7), Kit acknowledges that "Count Olaf is one of our enemies, but there are many, many more who are equally wicked, or perhaps even more so." So it's not unreasonable to presume there are human enemies worse than Olaf.

[r]

i dont know if any one else died but it made me sad when count olaf died

[vfds321s]

In TRR, Lemony states that Klaus would regret years later not telling the cab driver to take Stephano (Count Olaf) back away from Dr. Montgommery's house. So at least Klaus is alive, unless there is anything in later books that retconned it.

[Violent BUN Fortuna]

In addition, TRR also refers to Violet looking back on her life years later. This often gets overlooked, perhaps because the reference to her third trip to BB and her potential meeting of the FFP is a more obvious and intriguing clue as to her activities after TE, or perhaps because the mention of Klaus’s later life comes first.

Anyway, I believe that Snicket left ample evidence that the Baudelaires survived, certainly for quite some time beyond TE. He doesn’t outright say that, but then Snicket doesn’t often outright reveal this sort of thing. Still, the evidence seems pretty clear to me on this occasion; the Baudelaires survived. What is unclear is their ‘current’ status, and that is where it is really left up to each individual reader to decide for themselves. Personally, I believe they are alive, but after a certain point it’s really just a matter of one’s own personal interpretation/ideas.

As to the others you mention, I think those options have been pretty well covered already. I imagine they survived, but it’s just up to everyone to decide for themselves.

[tonyvfd]

I used to think they survived for the above reasons, but Handler would not be the first, nor last author that wrote himself into a corner, also he originally had a contract for only 4 books, so probably didn't give much thought.

Combined with the fact that Beatrice II cannot find them.If they're alive and could clear their name they should be easy to find.

[Violent BUN Fortuna]

I don’t see why they should be particularly easy to find; there could be any number of circumstances which would prevent them from making contact with Beatrice II (and vice versa). The whole nature of the ASOUE world is that nothing is ever simple, and life only gets increasingly confusing and complicated: within the series we see various characters trying and failing to reach each other, or to get messages to each other. Surely the Baudelaires could experience the same sort of problems after TE, whether or not their names were cleared.

[Foxy]

That is true. It seems like the Snicket siblings were all trying to find each other, but somehow couldn't. It could be this way for Beatrice II and the Baudelaires.

It just always seemed to me like when Snicket put into TBL "Beatrice Sank" and showed the remains of the boat and Violet's hair ribbon, Klaus's glasses, and Sunny's whisk, he was saying he did the research for Beatrice II when she asked him where her family was, and he found out they died in a shipwreck. But I think we talked about this subject a couple months ago, and others had some good theories about how the Baudelaires might not have died.

[tonyvfd]

The Netflix series suggests they were rescued/abducted by the FFP so the boat could have sunk while they still have survived. Another explanation is that Beatrice II cannot find them because they are in prison(as depressing as it sound) it would fit with their bad luck.

[vfds321s]

May 6, 2019 7:22:26 GMT -5 Foxy said:

That is true. It seems like the Snicket siblings were all trying to find each other, but somehow couldn't. It could be this way for Beatrice II and the Baudelaires.

It just always seemed to me like when Snicket put into TBL "Beatrice Sank" and showed the remains of the boat and Violet's hair ribbon, Klaus's glasses, and Sunny's whisk, he was saying he did the research for Beatrice II when she asked him where her family was, and he found out they died in a shipwreck. But I think we talked about this subject a couple months ago, and others had some good theories about how the Baudelaires might not have died.

The remains could be faked like the evidence of the Baudelairs murdering "Omar". I just thought of this because, even with Olaf dead, there are still villains out there (they couldn't have all been in the hotel fire and some may have survived it) and with the last safe place gone, the remaining villains will cause mass chaos and their desires to kill volunteers will be made a lot easier. There's also the fact that they are still framed for a crime they didn't commit and reluctantly committed some more (hotel fire, using some of Olaf's tricks that he was portrayed as evil for, ect.) They may have gone into hiding until VFD was restored and their names were cleared or otherwise. So they made it look like they're dead to keep everyone else off their backs.

[Foxy]

May 6, 2019 17:35:49 GMT -5 vfds321s said:

the remaining villains will cause mass chaos and their desires to kill volunteers will be made a lot easier.

This line struck me as to how violent this series is considering it is for children. There is quite a lot of murder.