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Post by RockSunner on Jul 23, 2007 3:30:02 GMT -5
Trying to break down in detail how Harry was able to come back. I see it as an interaction between two or possibly three spells.
1) Avedra Kadavra says: drive the soul from that body. In this case, the spell said "All right, Voldemort, but since you both seem to be the same body. I'll kill both of you."
That is why Voldemort "faints" when Harry goes down, and why Harry sees the suffering child at the station. This effect is too much for the horcrux-piece of Voldemort in Harry, and it is destroyed.
2) Lily's protective love says: "Voldemort's curses can't kill Harry." But Voldemort is reconstituted with Harry's blood and he's within the same protection. The protection may be diluted since there are two of them, so there is a (possibly limited) effect from the first curse,
3) Horcrux Nagina says: "My master cannot be killed while I am alive." This spell is applied to both Harry and Voldemort, bringing them back.
If this third part applies, Harry owes his life to the fact that Nagina was not killled first.
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Post by Sixteen on Jul 23, 2007 7:25:19 GMT -5
I don't think Nagini had anything to do with it. Harry's blood was used to ressurect Voldemort, so the fact that some of it was still alive in Voldemort gave Harry the choice of whether he wanted to return or not. Voldemort fainted because he destroyed a part of his own soul.
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Post by s on Jul 23, 2007 7:35:43 GMT -5
Voldemort fainted because he destroyed a part of his own soul. And yet, he couldn't even tell when the first five horcruxes were destroyed? I'm not sure how this worked, really.
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Post by Dear Dairy on Jul 23, 2007 13:23:56 GMT -5
I have to say, I don't understand the flayed infant bit at all. What is your understanding of that?
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Post by RockSunner on Jul 23, 2007 14:33:42 GMT -5
The flayed infant was Voldemort's soul, damaged by all the horcurxes he had made. Harry states this at the final confrontation. He says that Tom must try for remorse (to join his soul back together) because Harry has seen how he will end up otherwise.
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Post by Dear Dairy on Jul 23, 2007 14:46:48 GMT -5
Gotcha. Thanks. When Harry said that, I didn't realize he was talking about the flayed infant. But I figured it was some part of Voldemort, because of the revulsion Harry felt when he came near it.
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Post by s on Jul 23, 2007 15:05:42 GMT -5
Another thing - how was Nagini killed again? When did the protective shield/cage around it stop existing? That bit confused me.
And I still don't understand why Harry's alive.
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Post by Gigi on Jul 23, 2007 15:37:44 GMT -5
When Voldemort thought he had killed Harry, he removed Nagini from the cage. She was safe if Harry wasn't alive to kill Voldemort or her.
Didn't Dumbledore tell Harry at King's Cross that he could choose whether to go back or move on? Why wouldn't Voldemort have that choice when he got to King's Cross?
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Post by Dear Dairy on Jul 23, 2007 15:47:15 GMT -5
AND, Shruti - once the cage was gone, Neville was free to kill Nagini with Gryffindor's sword, which he got from the Sorting Hat. As it turns out, Voldemort was not very smart. He made it possible for Neville to get the sword by bringing the Hat into the courtyard.
Gigi, maybe DD did have that choice, and chose to go on.
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Post by Gigi on Jul 23, 2007 16:01:07 GMT -5
Gigi, maybe DD did have that choice, and chose to go on. I'm sure Dumbledore went on. To clarify, I meant Dumbledore told Harry that Harry had the choice to go back or move on. Now that I think of it though, Dumbledore must have waited around King's Cross all this time, waiting for Harry to show up (which he knew Harry would). After Harry went back, Dumbledore must have moved on.
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Post by Dear Dairy on Jul 23, 2007 16:25:14 GMT -5
Sorry, I'm a dope. In your original question, I saw "Voldemort" and thought "Dumbledore."
To answer, we don't know that Voldemort went to King's Cross. Maybe that was not the place for Dark wizards.
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Post by s on Jul 23, 2007 16:26:39 GMT -5
Yes, I got the part with Neville, I just didn't see why the snake was suddenly vulnerable.
I assumed that was a choice only Harry got - I can't imagine that everyone who dies gets the chance to go back?
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Post by Dear Dairy on Jul 23, 2007 16:28:12 GMT -5
Maybe you only get the choice if your soul is whole and unblemished. Or it had to do with the thing about Harry containing part of V's soul - that part died, but Harry's soul didn't, so that's why he could go back.
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Post by Gigi on Jul 23, 2007 16:35:14 GMT -5
I'm starting to see how not everyone would get the choice to move on or go back. Otherwise, I think a lot more people would choose to go back. Wouldn't you? It must have something to do with the parts of souls in other people's bodies.
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Post by Jacques the Environmentalist on Jul 23, 2007 22:57:03 GMT -5
I think the killing curse killed Voldemort's horcrux and just knocked Harry out, because the whole thing happened inside his head. A killing curse did hit him so he did have the chance to go on but he was not required to because it only really destroyed that bit of Voldy's soul.
Voldemort fainted because he was in essence attacking himself in attacking Harry, it was Harry's blood, if Harry went down so did Voldemort, his new body was in a way dependent on Harry's. I guess that was Dumbledore's gleam of triumph, if Harry got rid of all Voldy's horcruxes but the one inside himself and Voldemort went to kill him he'd kill himself.
That flayed baby thing WAS Voldemort, he and Harry were out at the same time, both were at King's Cross. I'm guessing that's why Dumbledore didn't come back when Harry used the resurrection stone, everyone else had gone on but Dumbledore remained at King's Cross.
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