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Post by colette on Jul 17, 2011 10:07:33 GMT -5
Oh, I see.
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Post by Vanja on Sept 26, 2011 8:34:16 GMT -5
Well, a second cousin is "Someone with whom one shares a great-grandparent (but not a grandparent or a parent)". if you Think B or A had Beatrice, and she gave birth to the siblings, then you can see that the Orphans and Josephine share "?" as a great-grandparent, but they don't have the same grandparents or parents. I have noticed that throughout the books there are groups of three children, having their parents killed in fires. Baudelaires, the Quagmires (I'm sure you know) and, somewhere mentioned in various books (UA, TBL, ASOUE) is a snicket fire, which could have happened in the mansions/houses of A, B, and C; D, E, and F; G, H, and I; J, K, and L; or M, N, and O. Or, there could have been a fire in each mansion, and only one mentioned. Wouldn't it make more sense if A or B had Bertrand?
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Post by Dante on Sept 26, 2011 10:04:07 GMT -5
Good point. We do tend to get a bit too focussed on Beatrice sometimes, and forget that Bertrand is important as well. Important, but lacking in backstory.
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Post by Hermes on Sept 26, 2011 10:53:41 GMT -5
Unless he was adopted by a group of orphans, who named him after their father.
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Post by Dante on Sept 26, 2011 11:07:52 GMT -5
Would that then possibly make B Bertrand?
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Post by Hermes on Sept 26, 2011 12:57:25 GMT -5
I wondered that, but on the whole I think not, because in that case Bertrand Jr's name ought to be Snicket. Now, he might have taken his wife's name on marriage - because the estate is hers, or because she's the last of her line - but still you'd expect the kids to be more familiar with the name 'Snicket' than they are.
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Post by Vanja on Sept 27, 2011 14:31:54 GMT -5
I wondered that, but on the whole I think not, because in that case Bertrand Jr's name ought to be Snicket. Now, he might have taken his wife's name on marriage - because the estate is hers, or because she's the last of her line - but still you'd expect the kids to be more familiar with the name 'Snicket' than they are. It would make sense if either A or B were female. If A or B married a "Baudelaire" and had or adopted Bertrand.
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Post by B. on Oct 7, 2011 12:42:07 GMT -5
But is this even an actual "family?" Family may in fact refer to the VFD family, as in the members of the organization.
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Post by Charlie on Mar 16, 2013 1:57:18 GMT -5
Heya all, it's annnoying bumpy Charlie, but apparently it's okay because I have something kinda fun and useful to say. Kinda. Okay, so on "The Family Tree"
A- Unknown B- Unknown C- Charles Snicket (Possible inspiration for Charles of TMM, following the naming tradition) D- Either a female whose husband was named Anwhistle, or a male who changed his name to his wife's. E- Either a female whose husband was was named E. , or a male E. Jacob Snicket known to everyone but his Bridge partner by his middle/ nickname . F- Either a female whose husband was named Caliban, or a male who changed his name to his wife's. G- Gregor Anwhistle H- Humphrey/Hector/Hal/ Hugo/ (as Dante suggests) the shocking possibility that the H. Anwhistle sibling is someone we don't know about I- Isaac (Ike) Anwhistle J- Jacques Snicket K- Kit Snicket L- Lemony Snicket M- Miranda Caliban N- Unknown O- Olivia Caliban
I know, I know, the Caliban option is none too popular, but hear me out. I have a theory (alongside a whole heap of other people) that in VFD the men take the names of their wives. If this was so, then Miranda could have always been a Caliban, and Thursday changed his name, accounting for the Mrs. Also, it would explain Friday being a Caliban. I also support the much opposed theory that Miranda is Mrs. Widdershins. I know, I know, it's a trap. I don't care, I like it, so there.
Also, on how the Baudelaires are related. I like to think that Beatrice was always a Baudelaire (as she seemed to be). This would mean that she could not be "B", seeings as "B" is a Snicket or something. Bertrand is said to be raised by three orphans after his parents died (or something of the like). In this vein, Bertrands real parents could be anyone, but he was probably named after his adoptive parents' father.So thus, the Bertrand mentioned in The End, could be Bertrand Baudelaire, or Bertrand Baudelaire's adoptive grandson. Anyhow, that's all I've got, sorry for bumping etc.
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Post by Dante on Mar 16, 2013 3:17:41 GMT -5
Don't worry about bumping if you have something substantial to contribute. I'm more concerned about whether you think your theory is an adequate canonical explanation, or whether it's just a personal explanation that satisfies you. If it's the latter, then I can't really take issue with your ideas regarding how surnames are taken in V.F.D. Otherwise, it's a bit of an arbitrary invention.
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Post by Hermes on Mar 16, 2013 17:45:06 GMT -5
I still feel quite strongly that, at least in Handler's original plan, O was Olaf, both because of the noose round his branch of the tree, and because on this reading the tree links the three families who have the single eyebrow. It might still be possible to have it refer to Miranda and Olivia as a retcon - either by us or by the author - in case people are uncomfortable with Olaf and Kit being first cousins.
I'm not sure about the idea of all VFD members taking the wife's name on marriage. It would make sense with Beatrice (since the passage about the Baudelaire allergies suggests it was her maiden name), and it would also allow E to be Lemony's mother, getting round the problem that his father was called Jacob. Also it would parallel the case of the Duchess, whose title seems to descend from mother to daughter (though a title isn't the same as a name). But then shouldn't Charles Snicket have taken his wife's name, so that his children wouldn't be Snickets?
On the other hand it might be that Miranda, specifically, has resumed her maiden name (though keeping 'Mrs' because she has a child). I don't think 'Friday Caliban' occurs anywhere, in any case.
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Post by Charlie on Mar 16, 2013 22:24:27 GMT -5
@ Dante: Nah, it's just a personal explanation that satisfies me. It's how I decided to take the family tree after much struggle to comprehend it. Hermes: I kinda feel as if a lot of The End was just kinda the author trying to disambiguate TUA. I mean, not all of it, but for example the scene with all the islanders interrupting and adding the bits of their lives. I don't know that all people would have to take their wife's name, but it seems to fit for a lot of people, and it fixes the problem of Esme's maiden name.
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Post by Dante on Mar 17, 2013 3:10:52 GMT -5
The U.A. refers to Jerome as Jerome Squalor before he marries Esmé, however.
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Post by Charlie on Mar 17, 2013 3:19:19 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess. Not that one then
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calvero
Reptile Researcher
Qui voudra connnaître?
Posts: 23
Likes: 7
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Post by calvero on Sept 23, 2013 2:18:12 GMT -5
Anyone else have labels for the generations? My labels are pre-schism(A,B,C), schism(D,E,F), post schism orphans((G,H,I/J,K,L/M,N,O) , and new orphans(Baudelaire/Quagmires/etc.).
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