andcran
Bewildered Beginner
Posts: 2
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Post by andcran on Oct 14, 2009 17:08:13 GMT -5
Hiello, I'm new to ASoUE and TBL. I just finished reading both and I had some questions about TBL that I have not seen addressed in any other threads. If you guys have seen these questions before and either dismissed or confirmed them I would be glad to hear it.
Question #1 Is is possible that at least some of Beatrice B's (Kit's daughter) letters were not received by the real Lemony Snicket? It seems that Lemony did not realized that there where two Beatrices until after his trip to the mysterious warehouse he told his editor about. If he had received all of Beatrice 2's letters he would have immediately known that this was not the woman he loved( she did not know anything about him, root beer floats, and called him "sir' ). Beatrice, Kit's daughter, also seemed to have some doubt as to who she was talking to (BB to LS #1) Question #2 In LS to BB #4, Lemony Snicket says that he "cannot remember to call L. "O" or to call O. "L." I feel I am right in assuming "O" is Count Olaf, but who is this second "L"? And is the second L's last initial also S? This could be someone Beatrice (Kit's daughter) is mistakenly contacting. It could also mean that Count Olaf-- either the original or an impostor is actually alive and that the one we know as Count Olaf may have only been an impostor in the first place. Remember, there are a lot of people with tattoos on their ankles and disguises including Lemony's brother Jacques who supposedly died for looking a little too much like Count Olaf. Has this idea already be explored? If so, please direct me to the thread.
Question #3 In TPP the hotel is called Hotel Denouement. Upon looking up this word I found that denouement is related to an old french word which means to untie knots. The idea of knots and untying them is found constantly in TBL. My Silence Knot, the sonnet is also an anagram for Lemony Snicket. What is the connection between Denouement, Snicket, and the Beatrice letters?
Question #4 In TBL the idea of a brae man is also constantly alluded to. At first, I thought these brae man was Lemony Snicket. In fact Beatrice, Kit's daughter, goes looking for Lemony and the locals plainly say that an average, not bald person using the initials L.S. was living in the hills as a brae man. Since the book kindly defined the word brae man I neglected to look it up until just a while ago and found out that it is connected to old and middle English words for eye and eyebrow. Eye makes me think of V.F.D and eyebrow of Count Olaf. Of course, I might be over reaching. However, I wanted to know what you guys thought. Question 5 Who is "R" in TBL? I know she is the new Duchesses of Winnipeg, but is she another character from ASoUE?
Please, don't be too harsh, I just started reading these books and I did attempt to find out if these ideas have already been covered. Sincerely, Drea
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Post by Hermes on Oct 15, 2009 8:39:45 GMT -5
Really interesting questions, Drea! I think some of these are new, and they're certainly all worth thinking about. Question #1 Is is possible that at least some of Beatrice B's (Kit's daughter) letters were not received by the real Lemony Snicket? It seems that Lemony did not realized that there where two Beatrices until after his trip to the mysterious warehouse he told his editor about. If he had received all of Beatrice 2's letters he would have immediately known that this was not the woman he loved( she did not know anything about him, root beer floats, and called him "sir' ). I am not sure he received all the letters - some of the time he seems to want her to follow him, while at other times he seems to be avoiding her, and if he missed some of the letters that might explain that - but I think he must have got the one that was dropped on his desk. But I think he did know that she was not the Beatrice he loved - though it may be that at first he thought she was an impostor pretending to be the Beartice he loved. In the letter to the editor it says something like 'It was some time before I received the first letter that I realised' [that there were two Beatrices]; the sentence would run a lot more smoothly if it said 'some time after', but given what it does say I think we have to accept that he knew from the start. (This was debated in the TBL reread thread - in which I took the line that he didn't know - but I was persuaded that this couldn't be right.) Yes, I think Lemony may be living under an assumed name (though with the initials LS) because he is a fugitive from justice. I think 'to call O "L"' means 'to call Olivia "Lulu"' (Madam Lulu, from TCC, whose real name is Olivia). But 'to call L "O"' doesn't seem to refer to anyone we know. It might be someone disguised as Olaf, but if so I can't think who, or how it would fit into the story. No, I don't think it's been explored (though I haven't been around that long - Dante would know better than me). If you mean that the person we know as Count Olaf throughout the series is an impostor. I'm inclined to say it doesn't matter much; he, the person we know as Olaf, is the villain of the series, whether that's his real name or not. Or are you suggesting that his identity might change during the series? (But bear in mind Jacques was misidentified as Olaf by people who hadn't seen Olaf, and knew him only by description - they weren't really hard to tell apart.) That hadn't struck me - interesting. And there is a connection, in that although young Beatrice goes by the name 'Baudelaire', she is really, it seems, a Denouement, since Dewey Denoument is her father. I think the brae-man in that passage is Lemony - however, he's not the only person who can be described in that way; the older Beatrice's co-star in a play played a brae-man, and while we're not sure who that is, it certainly isn't Lemony. Not sure about the connection with the eyebrow - it may be an accident, but it's worth thinking about. Bear in mind that Olaf isn't the only person with the eyebrow - it turns up in the Snicket and Anwhistle families as well. (The family tree in TUA suggests these are all related.) She isn't actually a character, but she's mentioned in a few places; in TAA Lemony says he went to one of her masked balls, and in TGG she appears in an example of a coded message. (It's also possible that she appears as an unnamed character, e.g. the woman in the trunk of the taxi in TPP.) She plays a rather larger part in the Unauthorised Autobiography.
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Post by Dante on Oct 16, 2009 8:45:42 GMT -5
Hello, Drea. I'd also like to thank you for posting these questions - and thanks, too, Hermes, for answering them; I had to be away for a little while. I'll support Hermes's answers where necessary. Question #2 In LS to BB #4, Lemony Snicket says that he "cannot remember to call L. "O" or to call O. "L." I feel I am right in assuming "O" is Count Olaf, but who is this second "L"? And is the second L's last initial also S? This could be someone Beatrice (Kit's daughter) is mistakenly contacting. I think 'to call O "L"' means 'to call Olivia "Lulu"' (Madam Lulu, from TCC, whose real name is Olivia). But 'to call L "O"' doesn't seem to refer to anyone we know. It might be someone disguised as Olaf, but if so I can't think who, or how it would fit into the story. I think, as a piece of writing, the "call L "O"" statement is just meant to be a humourous inversion of "call O "L"" - like the wordplay sequence in the Kind Editor letter regarding reading the piece of paper in a glass cabinet. If we can't think of any suitable candidates, I'd be uncertain it had any important in-universe meaning we can identify. (It could be an out-of-universe in-joke - for example, a nickname for his wife Lisa that begins with O.) It could also mean that Count Olaf-- either the original or an impostor is actually alive and that the one we know as Count Olaf may have only been an impostor in the first place. Remember, there are a lot of people with tattoos on their ankles and disguises including Lemony's brother Jacques who supposedly died for looking a little too much like Count Olaf. Has this idea already be explored? If so, please direct me to the thread. No, I don't think it's been explored (though I haven't been around that long - Dante would know better than me). If you mean that the person we know as Count Olaf throughout the series is an impostor. I'm inclined to say it doesn't matter much; he, the person we know as Olaf, is the villain of the series, whether that's his real name or not. Or are you suggesting that his identity might change during the series? (But bear in mind Jacques was misidentified as Olaf by people who hadn't seen Olaf, and knew him only by description - they weren't really hard to tell apart.) The idea that Olaf isn't the real Count Olaf is one that's been brought up before. It'd have some advantages - for example, explaining why the Baudelaire parents weren't more worried about Olaf, why they wouldn't have taken steps to avoid the Baudelaire children going to him in the event of their deaths. But it was never really a wildly popular theory, and I think that's probably for the simple fact that it's unnecessary - not then, not now. It didn't add anything to our understanding to speculate that Count Olaf was an impostor. It would've been interesting, and at one point it would even have been a possibility, but I think the evidence as it stands suggests that the Count Olaf we know has always been Count Olaf, and that there is no other. He is quite inimitable. Still, I'd be happy to read a fanfic about it. In fact, I remember now that an old friend of mine, Ennui, wrote a fanfic which utilised that idea, among others. Question #3 In TPP the hotel is called Hotel Denouement. Upon looking up this word I found that denouement is related to an old french word which means to untie knots. The idea of knots and untying them is found constantly in TBL. My Silence Knot, the sonnet is also an anagram for Lemony Snicket. What is the connection between Denouement, Snicket, and the Beatrice letters? That hadn't struck me - interesting. And there is a connection, in that although young Beatrice goes by the name 'Baudelaire', she is really, it seems, a Denouement, since Dewey Denoument is her father. I think we're looking at a lot of thematic interlinks that probably reach their climax in Beatrice Snicket-Denouement-Baudelaire, yes. Just as TPP was the denouement of the series, so, in its own way, is TBL - coming, as it did, immediately before The End, and unravelling a number of narrative threads. Question #4 In TBL the idea of a brae man is also constantly alluded to. At first, I thought these brae man was Lemony Snicket. In fact Beatrice, Kit's daughter, goes looking for Lemony and the locals plainly say that an average, not bald person using the initials L.S. was living in the hills as a brae man. Since the book kindly defined the word brae man I neglected to look it up until just a while ago and found out that it is connected to old and middle English words for eye and eyebrow. Eye makes me think of V.F.D and eyebrow of Count Olaf. Of course, I might be over reaching. However, I wanted to know what you guys thought. I think the brae-man in that passage is Lemony - however, he's not the only person who can be described in that way; the older Beatrice's co-star in a play played a brae-man, and while we're not sure who that is, it certainly isn't Lemony. Not sure about the connection with the eyebrow - it may be an accident, but it's worth thinking about. Bear in mind that Olaf isn't the only person with the eyebrow - it turns up in the Snicket and Anwhistle families as well. (The family tree in TUA suggests these are all related.) I don't think we need to worry about the identities of any brae-men aside from the fictional one who appears in the play (who stands for Lemony but, as Hermes said, is clearly not played by Lemony, who as far as we know has limited theatrical talent). The connection to eyes and eyebrows was unknown, however. I've just verified it myself. I don't know if Handler would have known that, but if he did - and it's entirely possible - I think that would've made him even more keen to use the word. I'm not sure it adds any greater dimension to the series, but, as with the Denouement links you identified, it shows that certain ideas or images run through the series in subtle ways. Question 5 Who is "R" in TBL? I know she is the new Duchesses of Winnipeg, but is she another character from ASoUE? She isn't actually a character, but she's mentioned in a few places; in TAA Lemony says he went to one of her masked balls, and in TGG she appears in an example of a coded message. (It's also possible that she appears as an unnamed character, e.g. the woman in the trunk of the taxi in TPP.) She plays a rather larger part in the Unauthorised Autobiography. As far as we're concerned, R. is the Duchess of Winnipeg - there's no need to define her in any other way. That is to say, on the few occasions we've had any representation of her, she's by and large already been the duchess, and even when she wasn't, she was always in line for the role. But she's nobody beyond that - she's not secretly a character from the series, unless she's a figure in the series who's never been identified, such as the example Hermes suggested (a possibility I've considered myself). I think you'd be best-off looking for more information about R. in the U.A., as Hermes advises.
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andcran
Bewildered Beginner
Posts: 2
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Post by andcran on Nov 17, 2009 22:55:57 GMT -5
Sorry I've been away for away, but thank you guys for adding a few things up for me! That was very interesting. I had not even though of Madame Lulu and Olivia. I just assumed that since the first "O" mentioned in the book was obviously Olaf, the initial would continue to stand for him, but that is just one of the confusions. Is is so easy to look for extra secrets in these books. Handler has layered the world of ASoUE so well that anything can seem like a clue. I think this is because of the "untied" endings. Even though the books began a decade ago, no one knows exactly what happened to those unfortunate orphans, Beatrice the First, or Beatrice the Second. I wonder if Snicket will ever write another series to , at least, give some clarification. To think, these are children's books! P.S. Isn't it weird how the original Beatrice's last name was Baudelaire as a child and she grew up and married another person with this not particularly common last name. Or did her husband take her last name?
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Post by Dante on Nov 18, 2009 4:27:41 GMT -5
We don't know what Beatrice's surname was before her marriage. I'd argue that the "LS to BB" tags and life-encompassing references to "Beatrice Baudelaire" are retrospective (and besides, her surname might have begun with the letter B anyway).
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Post by MyKindEditor on Dec 30, 2009 14:23:45 GMT -5
I think I'm probably wrong but I was under the impression that in TBL LS either never replied to BBII's letters or never recieved them and that the letters from LS were to BBI before the appearence of BBII? It seems like that to me because LS never acknowledges his recieving of BBII's letters and she never answers any of his questions. LS has cleaverly never dated any of the letters either to stop the stories being at a fixed date or to confuse the reader as to who the letter is for, if they were dated we could easily work out the chronological order and weather the letter's are a complete correspondance. That is my interrpretation and forgive me if that makes no sense. (Dante; in your post before last- could Count Olaf have inherited his title of 'Count' from his father- who LS was accused of killing in a fire?)
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Post by Christmas Chief on Dec 30, 2009 16:04:31 GMT -5
Lemony writing to Beatrice (the Baudelaires mother), and Young Beatrice (Kit's daughter) is writing to Lemony, yes. I think Lemony didn't date the letters because he didn't want to have to concentrate too hard on the timeline for the series.
As for the title "Count", I'm not sure that's something you inherit. Though it might be a passed-on reputation the Baudelaire parents never grew out of.
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Post by MyKindEditor on Dec 30, 2009 16:48:31 GMT -5
You do inherit the title 'Count' from your father. Could the Baudilair's parents have left them in the care of Count Olaf I not the Count Olaf we know? Maybe Beatrice knew something about the fire that LS supposedly started that killed Olaf's parents-maybe she knew something different about C.Olaf the first or second? This would make sense (I think) as they would have surely left them in the care of MM or someone nicer?
and... is the reason for Count Olaf II in the villains part of the V.D.F because of the fie that killed his parents?
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Post by Dante on Jan 2, 2010 6:17:03 GMT -5
It seems like that to me because LS never acknowledges his recieving of BBII's letters and she never answers any of his questions. While I think it's fairly clear that Lemony never responds to any of the younger Beatrice's letters, the absence of letters from the older Beatrice strikes me as being a matter of narrative convenience; it'd give away too much. There's also the possibility that she doesn't respond to him in writing, but talks things over with him again when they next meet. The two-hundred page novel is the only exception I'm certain that we know of. I'm not sure there's ever been a reference to Lemony killing or allegedly killing Olaf's parents in a fire; the usual reading of the series is that the Baudelaire parents assassinated them at an opera performance. But "Count" would probably be a title inherited from Olaf's father, yes, in the same way that the Duchess of Winnipeg inherited her title from her mother. I think the significance of Olaf being a count is purely in the way it echoes gothic fiction and old fairy-tales, though.
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Post by MyKindEditor on Jan 2, 2010 17:34:19 GMT -5
Oh, I just swear I read somewhere that Lemony was accused of the murder of Olaf's parents, maybe it was something else?
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Post by MyKindEditor on Jan 2, 2010 17:49:38 GMT -5
L.S is accused of something a lot bigger than the theft of Esme Squalor's sugar bowl though isn't he? Surely the theft of a sugar bowl doesn't need a full man-hunt-- hasn't lemony spent most of his life in hiding from the police? Does it ever say what he did?
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looneylad
Catastrophic Captain
Ta-daaaaa!
Posts: 62
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Post by looneylad on Jan 2, 2010 19:25:13 GMT -5
Oh, I just swear I read somewhere that Lemony was accused of the murder of Olaf's parents, maybe it was something else? It is implied that both Lemony and Kit were involved in Olaf's parent's murders, and that Baudelaire parents were the ones who actually committed the murders. Olaf's parents were killed by poison darts. Kit talks about smuggling poison darts to the Baudelaire parents. In the 13 Shocking Secrets, it says that Lemony helped Beatrice (mommy Baudelaire) commit a very serious crime (probably the murder of Olaf's parents). It is likely that he was blamed for it. Arson. I'm not sure who's property he was accused of burning down, but most likely he was framed on more than one occasion. It's possible that he was blamed for the Baudelaire fire.
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Post by Dante on Jan 3, 2010 4:41:38 GMT -5
There's at least one reference in the series to "the Snicket fires." It's likely that this title refers to a number of fires which Lemony was accused of setting.
I don't know if we should take the 13 Shocking Secrets text as canon, since it was probably prepared by the publishers. That particular claim, about Lemony helping Beatrice commit a serious crime, is probably derived from the implication in TPP that Lemony was indeed in the opera house during the performance where Olaf's parents died, but we know nothing about his activities.
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Post by MyKindEditor on Jan 3, 2010 16:22:37 GMT -5
ah, ok. I probably misunderstood something. Does Lemony actually ever admit any thing? Does he say what he was actually accused off and confrm or deny it?
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looneylad
Catastrophic Captain
Ta-daaaaa!
Posts: 62
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Post by looneylad on Jan 3, 2010 17:08:58 GMT -5
ah, ok. I probably misunderstood something. Does Lemony actually ever admit any thing? Does he say what he was actually accused off and confrm or deny it? He states many times that he has been accused of arson, but always follows up by saying that the accusations are untrue.
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