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Post by lorelai on Sept 23, 2015 5:01:10 GMT -5
Yep, that's the right link. I've been noticing lots of audiobook releases aren't matching up with their print counterparts lately, but when this is the case they're usually a week or month behind. So this is really quite refreshing!!!
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Post by Dante on Sept 23, 2015 6:45:08 GMT -5
Incidentally, taking the recent early U.K. release thread (with which I intend to combine this in a day or two) as a model, I would not object to people discussing the plot of the book here so long as they do so under spoiler tags, which I'll remind everyone of how to use. Simply copy and paste the following, and insert spoiler text between the tags, same you would with italics or image links or anything like that. [spoiler][/spoiler] An example in action, quote to see how it works if you're confused: I hope you liked TPP.
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Post by B. on Sept 23, 2015 10:43:56 GMT -5
They just can not keep this thing under wraps, can they? I found another way earlier of accessing bits of the book, though since it's only partial I won't say what it is. ...And now you can stop trying to be mysterious, and say what it is.
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Post by Hermes on Sept 23, 2015 13:51:28 GMT -5
OK, some things: About the general air of mystery: I'm beginning to wonder how much this really differs from ASOUE. In ATWQ, the actual mystery at the heart of the story is solved, but much remains mysterious, about the larger plot, how Kit fits in, what has happened to various parents, and so on. In ASOUE, likewise, many of the questions at the centre of the story are answered - who is Beatrice, what is VFD, and so on (see Violet's questions in TCC, and the chapter titles in TUA, if you doubt this), but much remains mysterious. The difference, I think, is that in ATWQ there is a well-defined central mystery, so we can be comforted by getting an answer to that even as we ponder the other mysteries of the world. In ASOUE there's no one well-defined mystery, so although we get lots of answers we don't get a single definite answer - and if we were hoping for one we were disappointed.
About Gifford and Ghede, etc. So, how does this work?
1. Theodora's original assignment was in the City, and L planned to take part in the museum raid while working with her.
2. But then someone intervened to give S a different assignment in Stain'd, to stop L taking part in this plot.
3. G and G then intervene in response to stop L going with S. Contrary to what she says, they would have put him on the train, and he would have arrived at his destination a little confused, but able to recover and continue his work.
4. However, S manages to organise an escape, so L, without realising what he is doing, goes to Stain'd after all.
L and K's plan was approved of by at least part of the VFD leadership, and fitted into their overall plot - which is why Qwerty was enabling it - although, Dumbledore-style, they were being allowed to think they were doing it on their own.
There is much this does not explain, of course, like why G and G were pretending to be L's parents (and he did go along with this), or why Kit was on the train, etc.
About the relation with TBL and TUA: I think there are two problems. One is just logistical, and we already knew about it; how do the stories fit together? It seems clear that LS to BB #1 was written before this; in it, B is 11, and I've always felt that L is a bit younger. But LS to BB #2 was generally thought to come later, when they are fourteen, perhaps; how can this be if L has already left school? And in LS to BB #3, it looks as if they have just left school, since L says the headmaster suggested he volunteer at a newspaper. But if LS to BB #2 comes earlier, it implies L and B were already sweethearts before ATWQ, which makes his response to Ellington puzzling; you would have thought B would at least be mentioned at some point.
But this is all issues of detail. What's new is a deeper problem; he seems to be turning his back on VFD at the end of ATWQ. Now, this does to some extent fit how we see him in ASOUE itself, but in TBL and TUA her appears as a volunteer in good standing long after the end of ATWQ. How to reconcile this? (Also, it's clear that even in ASOUE people are giving him support; could they be members of the AoA?)
About recruitment by apprentices: It still seems to me that this is very much in line with what ASOUE is about; you can become a volunteer by volunteering, as the Baudelaires do - in a way they are recruited by Quigley - and so can we.
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Post by lorelai on Sept 24, 2015 1:58:45 GMT -5
Not from the UK, but got the audiobook last night and have to talk! Think I got the tag right, please fix if not, kindly mods. I don't think there's a continuity problom with TBL and TUA at all if you give apprenticeship multiple meanings. It is Lemony who's eleven in LS to BB 1, we don't know Beatrice's age, so that first letter happened before ATWQ. The subsequent LS to BB letters could easily happen after ATWQ, if you take Lemony's leaving his apprenticeship to mean he's leaving his "apprenticeship at Stained-by-the-Sea", which is how it is referred to on the back cover of at least one of the books (I'll check which). The innocent nature of letter 2 would make sense post-ATWQ, as well as why L is accompanied on presumably two VFD assignments--I think we can rule out the "downstairs in the cafiteria" but who knows--he's screwed up before, and B doesn't ruin plans. He's still a volunteer--as in member of VFD--(there's a line about not volunnteering for thanks), but doesn't belong in that town anymore, as stated in the text. So he goes off, and rejoins VFD--possibly in the mountain HQ or the hinterlands before it, as we're told the latter's nearby--and begins his romance with Beatrice, including writing the second letter, at that point. He graduates from his later/older/secondary education--I think the phrase "early education" in the final mention of the city is key--and goes back to the city as an adult, to work as an "unchaperoned apprentice" if you will, along with Jacques and the rest, hence Jacques's comment in the letter to L in TUA. It's clear from the information in TSS about the HQ and the telegram in TBL that Lemony was happy and in love there, and this almost idyllic happiness would make sense coming on the heels of ?4. The ending of that also gives an explanation for why reports of L's villainy are believed, but I'll leave talk of that for another time, as this post is quite long as it is. A double post because I can't edit, please ignore unless you care about my perfectionism: make that got the audiobook Tuesday night.
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Post by Dante on Sept 24, 2015 2:40:50 GMT -5
Your spoiler tags were fine, lorelai, fear not. I've taken the liberty of combining your posts. I don't have a detailed breakdown at the moment, but I think your version of events strikes me as very likely, though Hermes is right to question exactly how certain background points are to be interpreted.
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Post by lorelai on Sept 24, 2015 3:42:48 GMT -5
Thank you for your liberty, Dante. Maybe I'll invest in a kind edet button pusher; not as good as a kind editor, but their task will be less fraught/exciting.
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Post by Cafe SalMONAlla on Sept 24, 2015 5:27:55 GMT -5
It arrived today! I've read up to chapter four, and have am taking a long train journey tomorrow (surprise surprise) during which I'll probably finish it.
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Post by Hermes on Sept 24, 2015 6:54:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the correction on Lemony's age - I keep getting him and Beatrice mixed up.
As to the other things: well, L did say earlier 'my schooldays are over', which makes his being back at school later problematic. But what I find more of a problem is that it is isn't really up to him to decide when his apprenticeship is over, so when he says it is, that's an act of rebellion. It is of course possible to go on being a member of VFD after you have ceased to be an apprentice, and to do other forms of training and so on, but can you do so after you have openly rebelled?
The school they are at in LS to BB #2 appears to be in the city, by the way, since it's the same school young B was later at; and it appears Olaf never went to the Mortmain Mountains HQ. When L and B did go there is something of a mystery - perhaps in vacations?
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Post by gliquey on Sept 24, 2015 13:22:26 GMT -5
About the general air of mystery: I'm beginning to wonder how much this really differs from ASOUE. In ATWQ, the actual mystery at the heart of the story is solved, but much remains mysterious, about the larger plot, how Kit fits in, what has happened to various parents, and so on. In ASOUE, likewise, many of the questions at the centre of the story are answered - who is Beatrice, what is VFD, and so on (see Violet's questions in TCC, and the chapter titles in TUA, if you doubt this), but much remains mysterious. The difference, I think, is that in ATWQ there is a well-defined central mystery, so we can be comforted by getting an answer to that even as we ponder the other mysteries of the world. In ASOUE there's no one well-defined mystery, so although we get lots of answers we don't get a single definite answer - and if we were hoping for one we were disappointed.
I feel like I agree with most of your points, but come to the conclusion that there are some pretty big differences between ASOUE and ATWQ. While in ATWQ I felt like most things were closed off (even though what Kit was stealing isn't explained), I think a lot of people were disappointed about how little ASOUE explained, more than will be disappointed at ?4 - I have a friend who was expecting the sugar bowl and great unknown mysteries to both be explained right up until the last page of TE. We know what the Bombinating Beast statue does and we've actually seen the creature fairly close up; I think ?4 introduces a few more anomalies that made me uncomfortable, like the idea that nothing is going to happen to Stew despite the fact that people know he's a murderer, but it solves the gist of everything rather than fobbing it all off onto the idea TE used that nothing can ever be solved and that the Baudelaires found some answers in the island's diary etc. While both solve some things and not others, it's not necessarily this fact but how the works gave answers that matters: it's a surprisingly and subtle point to note that Violet's questions in TCC are answered, because answers are given to us as we go along and lead to further questions (e.g. understanding the initials V.F.D. leads to more questions about the organisation itself in TSS). Contrast with ATWQ, where it feels like everything is neatly wrapped up shortly before, during or shortly after the denouement of ?4. Yes. I'm not too happy that this wasn't explained - I suppose Handler might simply feel that it's not worth sacrificing the relationship between Snicket and Ellington, which is both intriguing and integral to the plot, just because it doesn't sit particularly well with TBL, an obscure supplementary material from a past series. He doesn't contradict anything outwardly but he doesn't make any attempt to help us reconcile the seemingly obvious inconsistencies.
But as for what happens after the end of ATWQ... it could be anything. He could go back to V.F.D., his reputation in tatters, perhaps, but able to resume his learning. Maybe he's even forced to repeat his apprenticeship or the training he had already completed. The ending just shows what happens in the short term; obviously he doesn't remain in the Clusterous Forest forever.
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Post by lorelai on Sept 24, 2015 13:26:00 GMT -5
I think you can interpret "my school days are over" loosely. Note that he doesn't say training, and words and definitions and preciseness are important to L, and the latter is what's used in TUA; he could easily undergo more "training", but not "schooling"--or not think of it as schooling, finding a personal break between the two. Plus, look at how many levels of school we normal people have; when we use schooling or schooldays, we can be referring to anything between four or six different levels of education, but the term generally refers to one's youth, and L is certainly young (schoolboy or schoolgirl fit too, which maybe Handler should have used, but no matter what, the words evoke innocence and this is a coming of age story in many ways). As for the larger problem: his parents and/or grandparents could have leaned on some people plus the kid just killed someone, and there are enough learned people to boil his leaving down to a symptome of shock/PTSD. As I've said before, young Beatrice had her class in the same room where L met her namesake, and was taught by the man who taught L in LS to BB 2, but we have NO indication from L that he's writing his letter in the same room where they met. The only connection is the instructor, who could have moved from the mountain HQ to the city. While Beatrice does mention the green room in her letter, she stressed that it's where the story began, and that it's where she is now, but given that fragmentary plots, and everyone's stories interconnecting, and that the world/story begins long before we ourselves come into play are huge themes of TE, TBL and ATWQ not everything has to line up. And you and I have different opinions about Olaf and the mountain HQ, though I see how my version of events fails if you interpret him as not going there till TSS, and am sorry I can't think of a way to reconcile that.
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Post by lorelai on Sept 26, 2015 20:09:58 GMT -5
No one's mentioned the ASOUE references yet. The one's that stuck in my head are: L saying he's not a theatre critic, E hanging in the belt harness being compared to Sunny in the birdcage--ironic or did older Lemony do some editing when these reports went out to the general public--which also has the Devil's Tongue, and that every volunteer is not only a callback to previous books but gets linked to their older ASOUE selves. H is flying, W's underwater in his transport of choice, J is conveying a message, M was supposed to receive a message according to TUA, and B and O working together is sad and disturbing given that she'll do something to hurt him, what he'll later do to her kids, and how much of a role he plays in her first engagement ending. Also, was I the only one to notice creepy similarities between Stew and Olaf? Mostly a wheezy voice and laugh.
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Post by Dante on Sept 27, 2015 4:26:19 GMT -5
Some of those points, lorelai, would belong well in Bandit's recently-opened ?4 Reference Guide.
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Post by bandit on Sept 27, 2015 14:14:00 GMT -5
Snicket seems to be jumping on the front cover but falling on the spine. How odd. We've already had him falling before on a book spine (?1), although he was falling head-first then. So, from this I assume that the UK editions have the silhouette of Lemony tripping on the spine, with his hat falling off. The American edition has that too, and the silhouette is in purple on the sleeveless cover, as it should be. But on the title page it has Lemony's running silhouette from ?3. This seems to me like a very fatal design error. The world is full of disappointment. I see what you did there. About Gifford and Ghede, etc. So, how does this work?
1. Theodora's original assignment was in the City, and L planned to take part in the museum raid while working with her.
2. But then someone intervened to give S a different assignment in Stain'd, to stop L taking part in this plot.
3. G and G then intervene in response to stop L going with S. Contrary to what she says, they would have put him on the train, and he would have arrived at his destination a little confused, but able to recover and continue his work.
4. However, S manages to organise an escape, so L, without realising what he is doing, goes to Stain'd after all.
L and K's plan was approved of by at least part of the VFD leadership, and fitted into their overall plot - which is why Qwerty was enabling it - although, Dumbledore-style, they were being allowed to think they were doing it on their own.
There is much this does not explain, of course, like why G and G were pretending to be L's parents (and he did go along with this), or why Kit was on the train, etc. I'm also confused by this. To be clear, boarding the train in ?1 would have only taken Lemony across town, so he would have stayed in the city whether Gifford and Ghede tried to intervene or not. Instead, Gifford and Ghede somehow ended up impersonating Lemony's parents, and hamming it up even when they are alone with Lemony. This implies that they think Lemony doesn't know what his real parents look like, and that Lemony doesn't know who Gifford and Ghede are. It's revealed in later books that they have a certain notoriety for being incompetent volunteers, so of course Lemony knew who they were; however, Theodora didn't, because she thought they were his real parents. Until the end of ?4, when they have a conversation with Theodora and both parties seem to know each other perfectly well.
Not only that, but Gifford and Ghede are seen arresting Kit at the end of ?3. If they are in VFD and they had been trying to help the plan along, that must mean that they merely impersonated police officers and secretly let her go after the affair. Except Kit somehow ends up in actual police custody, on the train that goes through Stain'd. Therefore, Gifford and Ghede were on the train impersonating personnel so they could try and secretly let Kit go again, and we are to ignore whatever they did wrong in the first place(?) Unrelated, but... - When Hangfire finally speaks to Lemony in his normal voice (that sounds like "nothing"), even that must not really be his normal voice, because Ellington doesn't recognize it. If his distinguishing villainous ability is voice imitation, don't you think Ellington would somehow find out about her father's talent in the lifetime she spent with him? - The dart gun/harpoon gun parallel is reinforced even more by the back cover of the LB edition; Seth depicts the dart gun as being quite large, with an angular, harpoon-like tip. - My biggest "jump for joy" moment in this book was probably actually when Lemony said he didn't like TKAM.
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Post by Dante on Sept 27, 2015 15:03:26 GMT -5
I'm not in a position to offer a theory regarding the matter in question right now - in a few days, maybe - but I wanted to address this: So, from this I assume that the UK editions have the silhouette of Lemony tripping on the spine, with his hat falling off. The American edition has that too, and the silhouette is in purple on the sleeveless cover, as it should be. But on the title page it has Lemony's running silhouette from ?3. This seems to me like a very fatal design error. Oh, ouch. That title page is all wrong. The Egmont edition has the correct title page, though, with the spine silhouette matching the title page silhouette. I believe the pose is actually intended to be: Lemony leaping onto the train, with some artistic license on his missing hat.
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