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Post by Dante on May 30, 2019 13:26:37 GMT -5
I had no idea TBL came out before TE until quite recently. I wonder what people who read it before TE thought was going on. Here's the Official Discussion Thread for the book, begun the moment it came out, if you're interested in seeing 667's early ideas. It takes about half the thread for people to start seriously putting it together. I don't seem to have posted in it during the critical period, unusually, so I'm not sure what I thought; but I recall having some difficulty acquiring the book as Egmont messed up the release here, so I was probably sealed away and concocting my own thoughts in private.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on May 30, 2019 16:46:33 GMT -5
Seems like Beatrice is giving coded info to Lemony both in her plays and sonnets. I agree, but I don't think he is understanding the codes. I think he must have missed a message from her, or possibly multiple messages, but I think he must have received some of them. LS to BB #4I would guess that, like The World is Quiet Here, My Silence Knot is a vehicle for Beatrice to disseminate coded messages. Interesting that Lemony, in this case, does not appear to be in the audience as a dramatic critic. Maybe someone else is filling that role here, to distribute the information more widely throughout VFD. That could be what Lemony means by 'reports', come to think of it. 'The world is too quiet without you nearby.' This seems like a criticism of VFD. Who is L? Other than Lemony, the only volunteers we hear of with this name are Larry and possibly Laura Ingalls Wilder. In this context, Larry probably makes more sense, though who he would be disguising himself as remains a mystery. Olaf, maybe? How long after the last letter was this one sent? Although we are probably missing some of the letters Lemony has written to Beatrice, I think it makes sense to assume that this was written two weeks after the previous one we see, where he talks about R's mother dying. BB to LS#4
The main item visible in the illustration is Sunny's whisk, which wouldn't mean anything to someone who hadn't already read TE. Why does this letter say 'A' on it? Beatrice has the same writing instructor who taught Lemony during his youth. There's a sense of things coming full circle here, in a way that is both painful and nostalgic. I think this is the first time we actually get the definition of 'baticeer'.
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Post by Foxy on May 31, 2019 6:03:50 GMT -5
"A" is the grade Beatrice received on the paper. If this is the same flat-footed instructor Lemony had, I wonder why he is sad after all these years.
I'm not sure the letter from Snicket was sent two weeks after the one about R's mother dying. It could have been a different letter we do not have. But that's an interesting idea.
Thanks, Dante, for the link. I will check that out.
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Post by veryferociousdrama on May 31, 2019 14:29:51 GMT -5
All of what anybody is saying is making no sense to me at all. That is because I've never read this book before, shock confession over! I ordered it second hand a few weeks back, still hasn't arrived. Here's hoping it comes tomorrow, because my area doesn't deliver post on Sundays. No reason for me to tell you this, but ranting 'bout stuff makes me feel better. Carry on! Update: it's arrived!
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Post by Foxy on Jun 1, 2019 7:18:27 GMT -5
veryferociousdrama: I am happy your copy arrived! Happy reading! Reading the old thread Dante linked, I had a crazy thought that really doesn't fit the time-line. Violet, Klaus, and Sunny are all named after people who died - what if the other letters were from young Beatrice I, and she was talking about her older siblings? Only this theory does not work, because she would not have been Beatrice Baudelaire back when she was young, and it just does not make sense with Snicket's letters. But I wonder who the people were who Violet, Klaus, and Sunny were named after. But here is something: the parents were going to name Violet "Lemony" if she was a boy. So they definitely thought he was dead, maybe after he sent the telegram?
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Post by Hermes on Jun 1, 2019 9:49:49 GMT -5
I think the telegram must come after the plan to name the child Lemony, because L wrote it when he had heard of B's pregnancy, which he can't have done until she returned to the mainland. So I would guess the telegram actually let her know he was alive, which is why Klaus is not called Lemony. He does say that his death has been reported many times, so later she may have come to believe he was dead again.
Who the children are called after, though, is certainly a puzzle. For a long time we thought Sunny was called after S. Theodora Markson - especially when we discovered Bertrand was her apprentice - but in my view that has now been disproved. Violet may possibly be called after Violet Adams, a brilliant girl inventor, from All Men of Genius by Lev Rosen, who might be Bertrand's great-grandmother or something like that. (In real life Violet Baudelaire came first, but in-story, if they belonged to the same world, Violet Adams would have to have lived earlier.)
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Post by veryferociousdrama on Jun 1, 2019 12:27:38 GMT -5
I wonder what they'd have called Klaus if he were a girl? R?
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Post by Hermes on Jun 1, 2019 13:20:39 GMT -5
R isn't dead during the action of the story, though - unless you are thinking the child might have been called after her mother.
The obvious answer to what they would have called Klaus if he was a girl, I suppose, is 'Sunny', but that just pushes the puzzle down the line to what they would have called Sunny.
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Post by Foxy on Jun 2, 2019 9:21:15 GMT -5
I think the telegram must come after the plan to name the child Lemony, because L wrote it when he had heard of B's pregnancy, which he can't have done until she returned to the mainland. So I would guess the telegram actually let her know he was alive, which is why Klaus is not called Lemony. Just wanted to point out that was some good deduction on your part there, Hermes. I've never heard that theory before, and I find it quite intriguing. How was it disproved?
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Post by Hermes on Jun 2, 2019 13:12:52 GMT -5
DH was asked what the S stood for, and said he answer was somewhere in the fourth book - which 'Sunny', sadly, is not. The most probably theory now is that it stands for 'Solitude', which is mentioned in the last passage where Lemony asks what the S stands for, and, like much in ATWQ, is a Duke Ellington reference. Up to that point, 'Sunny' was much the most favoured theory - often coupled with the thought that Theodora would die. This became especially powerful when we discovered that Bertrand was her previous apprentice - a shock to all of us, as we had previously supposed it was Olaf. Here is the relevant thread.
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Post by Carrie E. Abelabudite on Jun 3, 2019 6:19:27 GMT -5
"A" is the grade Beatrice received on the paper. Oh, duh, I can't believe I didn't get that. I guess I was just thinking it seemed like the two letters were written close together - certainly I don't think they can have been written more than a few months apart. I think the telegram must come after the plan to name the child Lemony, because L wrote it when he had heard of B's pregnancy, which he can't have done until she returned to the mainland. So I would guess the telegram actually let her know he was alive, which is why Klaus is not called Lemony. He does say that his death has been reported many times, so later she may have come to believe he was dead again. Yeah, that makes sense, although I was thinking Beatrice might not have received the telegram. I guess that doesn't explain why Lemony was later able to obtain only the first half of it. Now I think about it, it doesn't make very much sense that Lemony should have in his possession any of the letters he sent to Beatrice. I guess she must have given them back to him at some point, but one wonders why. LS to BB #5Beatrice sent Lemony a lock of her hair? That's sort of creepy. I think Foxy's theories on the thirteen questions are mostly right, though I think at least one of the questions where the answer is some variant of 'no' would be something like 'Do you hate me?' or 'Are you angry at me?' I think that Question Nine is 'Do you still love me?' It seems sort of weird that Beatrice would be asking some of these questions, like the last one about Lemony's family growing up, or Question Two. It's possible that one is more rhetorical, but maybe some of the questions are some sort of insurance policy; a way to make sure the recipient is really Lemony. So, why did Beatrice and Lemony break up? My personal theory is contingent on the night at the opera happening before Violet, Klaus and Sunny were born, so it may not hold together entirely, but I tend to think it would have driven Beatrice and Lemony apart and Beatrice and Bertrand together. My guess as to what happened is that Lemony did not know that Beatrice was (at least partially) responsible for the death of (one of) Olaf's parents, and she didn't want to tell him because she felt it would ruin the relationship, but at the same time, it made her uncomfortable with the way he put her on a pedestal. He may well have only found out her involvement in the poison darts incident as he was researching ASOUE. If that is true, Beatrice must not have told Lemony the real reason why she was calling off the engagement - I would guess that she told him it would be too difficult to be married to a fugitive. BB to LS #5
'you have a lousy sense of direction,' This is something we have been discovering for a while. Beatrice's memories of the Baudelaires here again make it seem like she would have been older than a baby when she was separated from them. People have debated over the meaning of Beatrice's assertion that Lemony's books 'differ wildly' from what the Baudelaires have told her. I'd just assume that Violet, Klaus and Sunny never told her everything, and where the two accounts differ is over secrets they have kept from her. LS to BB #6
A different telegram company sent this than the company Violet, Klaus, Sunny and Eleanora used to contact Mr Poe. What message was Lemony trying to give Beatrice? Presumably the same thing he was saying to her when he got captured at the Masked Ball. My best guess for that was 'Count Olaf is trying to kill you,' though I'm not sure that really works, since you'd think in that case Beatrice could have figured it out on her own. I guess he must have tried and failed to give her the message several times over the years. BB to LS #6
Which friends would Beatrice have embarrassed Lemony in front of? And what could she have done that would have embarrassed him? Maybe she just knows the contents of his first letter to Beatrice and wants to mirror them in her own letter. We can conclude that Lemony and Beatrice did meet up, which ends the book on a positive note, even if the Baudelaires are still missing. To My Kind Ediotr
Unlike the other books in the series, this is actually a substantive part of the story. 'Strange as it may seem, I still hope for the best, even though the best, like an interesting piece of mail, so rarely arrives, and even when it does it can be lost so easily.' A much more positive vision for the future than Beatrice gives earlier. Lemony could be thinking about finding Violet, Klaus and Sunny when he writes this. My Silence Knot
I like the Snicket Sleuth's theory about this poem, that even though Beatrice is ostensibly referring to the play My Silence Knot, in the final two lines, she is actually talking about La Forza del Destino. This poem could have been Beatrice trying to tell Lemony about her guilt. It's very interesting to see the 'full' images on the poster, after having seen the individual pieces.
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Post by Foxy on Jun 3, 2019 8:33:32 GMT -5
Yeah, that makes sense, although I was thinking Beatrice might not have received the telegram. I guess that doesn't explain why Lemony was later able to obtain only the first half of it. Now I think about it, it doesn't make very much sense that Lemony should have in his possession any of the letters he sent to Beatrice. I guess she must have given them back to him at some point, but one wonders why. I think that is the whole telegram, and Snicket broke the machine by typing so big. Maybe some day there will be another thirteen books where Snicket and Beatrice II try to find the Baudelaires.
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Post by veryferociousdrama on Jun 4, 2019 0:48:56 GMT -5
Well, well, well. This is quite unlike any other book I've ever read!
So if what later in the book is true, Beatrice was friends with R and Bertrand before Lemony. Is the school Prufrock Prep?
The E implies Lemony thinks it's Esme, which hints she survived the Hotel. Especially as the letter is addressed to Sir, and she talks about others with LS, does she think he's Sir? Nah, probably not. Does Beatrice have a guardian if she has a bedtime? I like to think it's R.
Why wouldn't Count Olaf be in Theatrics? Is this an interest he gained later in life? The excursion sounds like the one to Mount Fraught with Jerome.
I'm kinda getting the impression that Lemony may believe that Beatrice I survived the fire. Some may remember my theory in THH in which Beatrice died in that fire. But the wording is a bit strange to be her, surely?
Despite the fact it doesn't make sense, it sounds like Jerome is on the Financial Times, but it could also be Jacques. Who started the Winnipeg fire?
It sounds like Beatrice II has left her guardian now, and has been travelling for a year. Is Lemony not wanting to be tricked, or does he not want to face the heartbreak that Beatrice I is truly dead? Sunny's radio appearances are a bit strange. Either they were on the Island/boat, as a disguise to radio other Volunteers, or they actually got separated later on, and initially returned to the shore, where Sunny got a job.
I doubt Olaf would be working on a newspaper, so O and L are most likely Olivia and Larry. But why are they swapping?
Is Lemony I trying to collect information on Beatrice I? But why?
So it looks like Beatrice has chosen Bertrand by this point. Has Lemony become too "wicked" in her eyes? Probably being framed for stuff by Olaf.
It's really sad that it's implied that Violet, Klaus and Sunny were feeling suicidal during their time on the Island. One thing Lemony didn't look at in the other books. Quite sad really.
Sounds like the telegram was sent after Beatrice and Bertrand returned from the Island by this point. Had they faked their deaths for a bit?
I expect the waiter was Larry, but I'm not sure. Personally, what I think happened was that Lemony did help Beatrice find the Baudelaires, but decided not to publish any more on their lives, believing he's told the public enough about them. Whether or not he stayed in touch I don't know.
From what I can gather, Lemony sent this to the Editor after ASOUE, but decided to cut contact. Sounds like he's regretting not believing Beatrice II.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Jun 4, 2019 10:04:23 GMT -5
As much as I do not want to turn this discussion into the Sardonic Series, I need to make a strong, straightforward, straightforward and very controversial statement here: Unless you consider that there are two live Beatrices Baudelaire after the departure of Klaus, Sunny and Violet from the island, you will never find sense in TBL.
Let me cite one example: In the letter BB to LS # 2, one of the Beatrices wrote: "I am leaving this city, only hours after finally seeing it for the first time... I am heading for the hills, so that I might find, AFTER ALL THESE YEARS, the three siblings who are the only family I have. Without Violet, Klaus, and Sunny, I am an orphan."
In this letter, Beatrice says that the first time she was in town was being that day she first saw the city. It had been years since she had seen Violet, Klaus, and Sunny.
On the other hand, a person who identifies himself as Beatrice Baudelaire says the following in BB to LS # 5:
"Without Violet's emergency repairwork, I never would have found my way to the city to search for you. Without Klaus's notes on mountain climb, I never would have left the city to search for you again. Without Sunny's extensive knowledge of making snaks from wildflowers and weeds, I never would have found the strength to return once more... to the city in the fopes of finally meeting you face-to-face. And without the stories all three siblings told me of their troubles - wich in some cases differ widly from your own accounts - I never would have found the secretarial school, where I wrote my previous letter to you... Without Violet Klaus and Sunny I never would have continued my studies with these last few volunteers..."
The person who wrote BB to LS # 5 was with Violet shortly before arriving in the main city, unlike the person who wrote BB to LS # 2, who had not seen Violet for many years before arriving in the main city for the first time in life . Violet had to repair the boat where they were so they could reach the city.
On the other hand, the person who wrote BB to LS # 3 is also someone who has not met Klaus, Sunny and Violet for many years. She wrote:
"This has been a hard years journey. Except for the occasional mob, I have traveled alone... This is why it is so important for me to find my family. As time goes on, many memories fade. Violet tying her hair up in a ribbon, to keep it out of her eyes, Klaus squinting at a book through his glasses, Sunny appearing on the radio to discuss her recipes - I don't want thse to be the only things I remember of the three mos important people in my life."
The person who wrote BB to LS # 3 spent many, many years without meeting Violet, Klaus and Sunny. The only things she remembers are a few flashes of memory. On the other hand, the person who wrote BB to LS # 5 remembers vivid details of the trip to the city, and details of the stories told by Violet, Klaus and Sunny about how the events described by Lemony in ASOUE were. She can even remember differences between the story they told of Lemony's story.
Therefore, I must reaffirm: In TBL there are two distinct Beatrices writing for Lemony, and both wrote their letters after leaving Violet, Klaus and Sunny on the island.
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Post by Dante on Jun 4, 2019 14:07:08 GMT -5
On the other hand, a person who identifies himself as Beatrice Baudelaire says the following in BB to LS # 5: "Without Violet's emergency repairwork, I never would have found my way to the city to search for you. Without Klaus's notes on mountain climb, I never would have left the city to search for you again. Without Sunny's extensive knowledge of making snaks from wildflowers and weeds, I never would have found the strength to return once more... to the city in the fopes of finally meeting you face-to-face. And without the stories all three siblings told me of their troubles - wich in some cases differ widly from your own accounts - I never would have found the secretarial school, where I wrote my previous letter to you... Without Violet Klaus and Sunny I never would have continued my studies with these last few volunteers..." The person who wrote BB to LS # 5 was with Violet shortly before arriving in the main city, unlike the person who wrote BB to LS # 2, who had not seen Violet for many years before arriving in the main city for the first time in life . Violet had to repair the boat where they were so they could reach the city. This is an unnatural reading of the text; there is no telling how long before the present day that the three Baudelaires had these particular influences on young Beatrice's life. Consider the following scenario: On their way back to the mainland, the Beatrice springs a leak that will drown everyone on board. Violet hurriedly performs emergency repairwork with ocean flotsam, and so they do not drown. Voila, a situation whereby Violet's emergency repairwork is directly responsible for Beatrice's eventual arrival in the city, no matter how many years intervened between the two occasions.
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