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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 1, 2020 9:45:20 GMT -5
The principle of mirroring in TBL was presented to me by Dante, and this principle was one of the things that made me rethink much of my theory. In short, the principle is that TBL was written prioritizing aesthetics. In other words, there is a certain equivalence between two timelines, and therefore any theory that is really valid for TBL must take this reality into account. The validity of this principle was shown to me in several examples, from the cover of TBL, to the format of the letters, and the choice of words. My last theory about TBL is actually an attempt to explain the reason within Lemony Snicket's universe for most of the effects caused by the mirroring principle that was apparently in Daniel Handler's mind when he wrote TBL. In summary, my last theory proposes that one (and only one) of Beatrice Jr's letters to Lemony Snicket was placed in the chronologically wrong order. That is, the letter BB to LS # 1 was originally written after the letter BB to LS # 3. The logic of my theory is that Beatrice Jr found the letters to Beatrice Sr at Lemony's office (as she recorded in BB to LS # 2). At that time Lemony had not yet published the books, as Beatrice Jr did not recognize the paperweight as being a leech, and she had only heard rumors about Lemony's research (in other words, she had not yet read the books). In this same letter, she states that the first letter she sent may never have arrived. In other words, the fictional TBL editor mistakenly deduced that BB to LS # 1 was in fact Beatrice Jr's first chronological letter to Lemony, when in fact the first chronological letter never reached Lemony's hands. And that is why in BB to LS # 1 there are quotes related to My Silence Knot and bat training.
The question is: if this is true, it is necessary to take into account the mirroring principle. Dante showed that it is difficult to accept this theory due to the fact that all other letters continue to follow the chronological order. Because if it was Daniel Handler's intention to mix the chronological order of the letters in this way, he probably would have made the mix much better and more evident. Changing the chronological order of just one of the letters does not seem to be the simplest way to resolve the situation, and so most people have come to the conclusion that Beatrice Jr had information about My Silence Knot and bat training.
But now, we get to the heart of this text. Does my theory pass the mirroring principle test? In other words, is there one (and only one) of the letters sent from Lemony to Beatrice Sr that is out of chronological order? And the answer is YES !!
Please compare the letters LS to BB # 3 and LS to BB # 4.
These letters contain elements that indicate that they are in the wrong chronological order. The letter LS to BB # 4 was written before LS to BB # 3. Here are some reasons that lead me to this conclusion. In LS to BB # 3, Lemony states that R's mother died and that she will therefore need to leave the TDP and assume her role as Duchess of Winnipeg. However, in LS to BB # 4 Lemony states that R is still working in the newspaper, as R plays cards with Lemony and she beats Lemony in the game (she doesn't seem to be too concerned with life's difficulties unlike Lemony who doesn't can focus on the strategy of the game). In LS to BB # 4, the performance of Beatrice's play is taking place in several cities far from the City. We know this because Lemony sends the letter via bats, and states in the letter that she will meet Beatrice in a few weeks. On the other hand, when Lemony wrote BB to LS # 3, Beatrice's performance in the City was due to happen that same week, on Friday. Lemony says at the end "See you in few days". This is in contrast to the ending of BB to LS # 4 where he states "See you in a few weeks".
It is easy to see why the fictional TBL editor confused the order of these letters. The introduction of the letter BB to LS # 4 states "2 weeks after my previous letter", but the editor did not take into account a simple truth: one of Lemony's letters to Beatrice simply did not reach Beatrice's hands. And because he did not take this into account, he confused the chronological order of the letters. This is a mirror !!! This means that my theory passes the mirror test. Both in Beatrice Jr's letters to Lemony and in Lemony's letters to Beatrice Sr there is a letter missing, and the lack of that letter led the fictional editor to err the order of the letters when publishing the book. That was the author's intention! And I reinforce: "I finally understood TBL".
Sure, but to understand, I needed help from Dante, Hermes, Foxy and others who did not accept my previous ideas and patiently explained the reasons. And thanks for that.
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Post by Be actress Beatrice on Aug 1, 2020 11:51:37 GMT -5
I think I'll need to read a lot to understand that.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 1, 2020 12:14:32 GMT -5
Take your time
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Post by Dante on Aug 5, 2020 6:50:29 GMT -5
So, your argument is that LS to BB #3 and #4 are presented in the wrong order. Unfortunately, neither of your two pieces of evidence can be substantiated. In LS to BB # 3, Lemony states that R's mother died and that she will therefore need to leave the TDP and assume her role as Duchess of Winnipeg. However, in LS to BB # 4 Lemony states that R is still working in the newspaper, as R plays cards with Lemony and she beats Lemony in the game (she doesn't seem to be too concerned with life's difficulties unlike Lemony who doesn't can focus on the strategy of the game). In #4 Lemony never states that R. still works at the newspaper (for that matter, in #3 he never states that she'll be leaving it); and that his meetings with R. are outside of his work at the newspaper is indicated by the fact that he is playing cards with her - which also implies, conversely, that he is no longer seeing her at the newspaper office (although again she may simply be in a more senior position). It is possible to suggest that playing cards with Lemony falls outside the duties of the Duchess of Winnipeg, but there is no reason she shouldn't still have a social life or that she shouldn't still be based in the city for the time being; alternatively, the R. Lemony is playing cards with may simply be a different R. - recall the Building Committee Transcript from the U.A., in which two R.s are listed as present. You appear to have misunderstood the fact that My Silence Knot is a touring performance and that it is performed multiple times in the city. I'll start by pointing out that #3 indicates multiple performances in the city alone; Lemony has to specify that he will be attending "Friday's performance", which would be unnecessary if it were her sole outing in the city, and furthermore he has already seen this play before and knows Beatrice's role and her appearance in that role, in that he hopes she "will never have to wear that butterfly costume again". Actually, it's not stated that the #3 play even is My Silence Knot; it's likely that it's one of a number of lesser roles Beatrice had to take on before her star role in My Silence Knot, which judging from its accolades must have placed her in a less excruciating costume. As for #4, the major point here is that Lemony describes Beatrice's upcoming performance in the city as a "homecoming performance"; in other words, either Beatrice or the play as a whole has been away, and now is coming back. In light of the understanding that the #3 play doesn't need to be My Silence Knot, it doesn't matter which; it merely confirms that Beatrice has already put on multiple performances in the city, and is now going to do so again. But the order of the letters is also important to the development of Lemony and Beatrice's relationship. Specifically, it's important to Lemony and Beatrice's growing estrangement that the gaps between their meetings grow ever-longer - "See you in a few hours", "See you in a few days", "See you in a few weeks", "Who knows when I will see you?" #3 is written based on the premise that Lemony and Beatrice are still spending regular time together - "We will have to be more careful during our evenings together"; and in general #3 is a much more casual letter, less emotionally tense, which fits if the pair are still meeting frequently. It is also pretty obvious that the important question Lemony wants to ask Beatrice after #4 is whether she will marry him; he wouldn't give this question so much weight in a letter weeks away from the time in question, only to pay it no heed in a letter directly beforehand. For these reasons, LS to BB #3 and #4 are indeed #3 and #4 in the chronological sequence.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 5, 2020 9:56:45 GMT -5
I understand that this way of understanding TBL seems logical and simple. But the more I think about it, I realize that the reversal of the order of these letters better explains many things. With respect to R's identity, there is no way to prove who she is. I can only say that apparently all other references to R in TBL seem to refer to Duchess of Winnipeeg. It doesn't seem to me that Daniel Handler wanted to refer in TBL to someone other than the Duchess by using the initial R. The phraseology used to refer to card games seems to indicate that Lemony plays cards for several evenings, as if this were a routine. So, the most likely reading is that the Duchess lived in the City, and met Lemony socially almost every evening. Of course, other readings are possible. I agree that My Silence Knot has been performed several times in the city and Lemony must have seen them all (or at least most). But the night in question when Beatrice introduced My Silence Kont after receiving the letter BB to LS # 3 was special and unique. And I'll talk more about that in a little bit. Regarding the departure of the Duchess of TDP, although this is not stated by Lemony in BB to LS # 3 this is very clear. Her exit is going to cause the change in the functions of employees in TDP. Before R left, Lemony's role was to check the spelling errors in the newspaper's records. After R's departure, Lemony went on to a VERY IMPORTANT role for this theory: He became a theater critic. This is an important chronological fact. Please consider the sequence of events that I am proposing completely before disagreeing with each individual part: 1 - Lemony wrote BB to LS # 4 saying that Beatrice is far away making several presentations of My SIlence Knot in countryside cities. According to LS to BB # 4, that was the tour's last performances. By that time she had already done some performances in the City, and Lemony attended those performances. We have correctly deduced that in this letter he indicates that he will propose to Beatrice a few weeks after he writes the letter. This would happen after her first re-presentation in the City. 2 - After a few weeks have passed and Beatrice is already in the City, her first re-presentation (and the last) is to take place that week, on Friday. On this day or the following days before Friday, Lemony becomes a theater critic. This happened because of R.'s mother's death (Not before that, according to LS to BB # 3). It is in this letter, LS to BB # 3 that Lemony asks Beatrice to use a hatpin as a signal for the midnight meeting. In other words, this sign was created by Lemony after the death of R's mother when he was about to become a theater critic. Now compare that deduction with what is written in LS to BB # 5, which is the letter I am using to confirm my deduction. Note this detail: "Question four - No, I don't think so. I remember the performance, of course, and I remember your splendid costume, and I remember the hatpin you dropped off the stage, and I remember the argument I had with Eleanora Poe the next morning, when I was more than an hour late in turning in my theatrical review ... " These words confirm that that specific presentation that Lemony was referring to in LS to BB # 3 happened after Lemony became a theater critic, which was after the death of R's mother, which was that same week. That special night, Beatrice used the hatpin as a signal to be able to meet Lemony safely at midnight. The evidence indicates that it was on that night, and not before, that Lemony proposed to Beatrice. In LS to BB # 5 Lemony wrote that the R ring was placed on one of Beatrice's fingers that night, after the waiters indicated that the cafe was already closed. (After all, the meeting took place at midnight). Through this interpretation, we understand the poem My Silence Knot more fully. This poem was specific to that specific night. Although Lemony has already seen the play My Silence Knot, the only time Beatrice inserted the poem My Silence Knot in the play program was that specific night. Which is why Beatrice asked a question about that poem that night. In the poem Beatrice wrote: "Hatpin serves as part of my disguise". She wrote about it after receiving the letter BB to LS # 3. She presented this poem in the same week that Lemony became a theater critic. She also wrote: "A piece of mail fails to arrive one day". She must have been talking about the letter that never came, which Lemony referred to when she wrote "2 weeks after my last letter" in LS to BB # 4. Beatrice received LS to BB # 4 with that written on her and realized that a letter that never arrived was missing. So she talked about it in the poem My Silence Knot, which was written after she received LS to BB # 3. Furthermore, Lemony's expression that she hoped Beatrice would never wear the butterfly costume again seems to indicate that this was going to be the last performance of the play My Silence Knot.
That is why the poem of that program that night was so important and so difficult to find many years later. The poem was presented in only a single section of the play. See continuation of question 4: "but I don't remember anything about the theatrical program. If I held a program I don't remember opening it. If I opened it I don't remember seeing a poem. If I saw a poem I don't remember reading it, and if I read it I don't remember rereading it, and if a reread itI don't remember being puzzled or continuing to be puzzled. "Beatrice asked about that specific program that specific night .
This is the most logical sense of events. But now see how it gets complicated if we consider that LS to BB # 3 was written chronologically before LS to BB # 4.
In this case, Lemony would have become a theater critic the week Beatrice performed in the City. R's mother died, and she had to leave the newspaper to become Duchess of Winnipeg. Still, R remains playing cards with Lemony every night in the City, or there is another R playing cards with Lemony. On Friday Beatrice presents My Silence Knot and inserts the poem into the program. They meet at midnight, but Lemony does not propose. Although Lemony says "I hope you never wear that butterfly costume again", Beatrice goes on another tour in the countryside. So Lemony writes LS to BB # 4 and talks about a homecoming performance. This time yes, Beatrice is proposed and receives the ring, but she does not insert the poem My Silence Knot again in the program of the play that happened earlier that day. Years later, she cancels the marriage to Lemony and sends a letter that shows that the poem had a relevance that Lemony never realized. This way of thinking needs to duplicate the R's in TBL using a device found in LSTUA during the writing of the Minutes of a meeting, or believe that R, despite becoming the Duchess of Winnipeg did not have to go to Winnipeg and stay there. And you need to ignore that Lemony said she hoped Beatrice would no longer wear the butterfly costume. In addition to not explaining the letter that never reached the one Beatrice was referring to in the poem. Is all this possible? Technically yes. But that makes it more complex than simply believing that there was a change in the order of the letters.
I think there is enough evidence to state that Daniel Handler's intention was that the night of the marriage proposal would happen on the same day that Beatrice dropped her hatpin as a signal for the midnight meeting. And if that really happened, the letter LS to BB # 3 must necessarily have been written after LS to BB # 4.
I recognize that in LS to BB # 3 Lemony does not mention anything about a possible marriage proposal. I wouldn't mention it either ... After all, a marriage proposal in general is something that happened by surprise. Lemony had already talked about asking Betrice something. If he insisted on this matter, it is clear that she would realize that this "something" was something intimate, not something related to VFD.
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Post by Dante on Aug 13, 2020 7:22:27 GMT -5
To be honest, Jean Lucio, I didn't at first understand how the lines of inquiry you were working along support the conclusion that you indicate. But after reading your theory carefully, I realised that you were in fact basing your ideas on two significant assumptions, both of which concern a single paragraph at the end of #3 (I assume we can omit "LS to BB" here, as that's the only strand of the story we're dealing with): It seems to me that the assumptions you're making are twofold: - That the play was My Silence Knot;
- That the hatpin was dropped only once.
Now, thanks to the information you've reminded me of, we can more or less disprove the first assumption. Central to this assumption is your reliance on the line, "I hope you will never have to wear that butterfly costume again", which you use as evidence that this is My Silence Knot's final performance. First, you must take into account that Lemony's hopes are not the same thing as reality; the play may have been more successful than anticipated and gone on to a sellout run in the surrounding cities, meaning Beatrice would indeed have had to wear the costume again after all. But second, your quotation from #5 in which Lemony mentions Beatrice's "splendid costume" indicates that these are two different costumes, and therefore two different plays; one in which Beatrice wears a costume Lemony dislikes enough to hope she'll never wear again, and another in which Beatrice wears a costume he regards as splendid. And if they are two different plays, then the performance in #3 is not the homecoming performance mentioned in #4, which means that #3 is not an event anticipated in #4's timeframe. The second assumption is, as I said, that the hatpin was dropped only once. But this assumption has no supporting evidence, and in fact the chronological sequence of #3 and #4 strongly implies that it would happen multiple times and indeed every time from #3 onwards: #3 is about how life in the organisation has become more dangerous, in direct consequence of which Lemony institutes the signal of the dropped hatpin; it logically follows, therefore, that if #4 came afterwards, the hatpin would have been dropped at the end of that performance, too. This is part of their regular ritual of meeting for midnight root beer floats, after all, and so the dropping of the hatpin is incorporated into the ritual. So the sequence of #3 followed by #4 creates no contradiction in #5. Additionally, I just remembered another indication, in addition to the widening gaps in time I mentioned in my previous post, which points us to the numerical sequence as the correct one: #3 begins "Dearest Beatrice", #4 "Darling Beatrice", and #5 "My dearest darling". They grow steadily more personal, and #5 combinining the two previous addresses in sequence indicates the progression of time and the deepening of Beatrice's emotional significance to Lemony. This is another of those sequences which runs the length of the whole book; the gaps between their meetings widen from hours to days to weeks to years, and the addresses escalate from no address to "Dear" to "Dearest" to "darling" to "My dearest darling" and finally to the impersonal "Dear Mrs. Baudelaire". (I would suggest the narrowing physical distance between Lemony and young Beatrice is another such sequence, as she gradually chases him down.) Finally, I would add that your response to my point of Lemony preparing Beatrice for his marriage proposal through his letters doesn't really hold up. You suggest that, in a #4-#3 sequence, he didn't mention it in #3 because he wanted it to be a surprise, but he would have already made his intention to ask her an important question clear in #4, and so she would be expecting it regardless; and the idea that a marriage proposal wouldn't have crossed her mind seems unlikely. The missing letter remains mysterious. Regardless, ultimately, of chronology, Lemony and Beatrice met after both of these letters, Lemony proposed, Beatrice received the ring, then subsequently she returned it. If Beatrice was aware of and concerned by a missing piece of mail, if she had something important to communicate via My Silence Knot, why didn't she discuss it on any of her at least one and probably numerous subsequent meetings with Lemony? This question may be unanswerable. I suspect that what Beatrice hoped to communicate through the poem was an emotional point which she subsequently didn't understand that Lemony didn't understand; or else, couldn't bring herself to speak of in person. This emotional point drove a wedge between them as much as the framing of Lemony for the Snicket fires, and informed Beatrice's decision to distrust and separate from him rather than to stand by him. The letter may have been from Beatrice to Lemony, indicating that he should pay attention to the program and the poem. It may have been #4, which must have arrived late, if not late enough to make any difference, and as such may serve as a metaphor for the difficulties of the two in communicating honestly with each other. The missing letter may not even be important, merely one element in a picture of tragedy.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 13, 2020 9:03:32 GMT -5
Well Dante, I think we got to that level where I presented the evidence and you did too. This time you didn't convince me. I understood your way of thinking and I think you understood my way of thinking. The only thing I can add to my list of evidence that indicates that Daniel Handler imagined the act of playing the hatpin as a unique event is like the caption in the photo: "The Hatpin" and not "One of the hatpins". About Butterfly's outfit, I think you misunderstood a detail. The reason Lemony doesn't want Beatrice to wear that costume again is not because he thinks the Butterfly costume is ugly, or because he doesn't like the Butterfly costume. The reason is just the opposite. Beatrice must be very sensual in that butterfly dress. Even though the dress is wonderful, knowing that the woman you like is showing off her body in a dress like that night after night brings a little bit of concern to you, especially if her scene partner is someone you have reason to be jealous of.
Let me be clear on one detail. Letter # 4 evidently refers to the play My Silence Knot and we know that because the name of the play is written on the letter. It is true that # 3 the name of the play is not described in the letter. But we have the description of an event that is Lemony becoming a Theater Critic. Consider this event as a timemark. It was only after this event that at least one Hatpin was used as a signal. This means that the poem My Silence Knot going written after this timemark. (because the poem mentions the use of Hatpin as a disguise). Then, when you read # 5 question 4 you realize that the next day that the poem My Silence Knot was placed by Beatrice in the program of the play My Silence Knot Lemony had to deliver a Review of the that play to Miss Poe, indicating that he has already he was a theater critic in that day. Therefore, my deduction that # 3 and # 4 talk about the play My Silence Knot has to be right. Other details may even be wrong in my theory. But surely # 3 and # 4 refer to My Silence Knot. This is a fact. What is debatable is whether or not it is the same presentation as My Silence Knot. I believe so.
The choice of the dearest greeting in # 3 is explained in the letter itself. Miss Poe was nearby. If she at a glance saw the introduction "Darling" or more intimate, she would soon be suspicious of the loving relationship between Lemony and Beatrice.
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Post by Hermes on Aug 13, 2020 10:25:59 GMT -5
I must agree with Dante that #3 and #4 refer to different plays: in My Silence Knot Beatrice played a baticeer, which is presumably a different part from that for which she wore a butterfly costume.
I agree that the evidence regarding R is confusing. One would naturally suppose that the events of #3 would lead to her moving to Winnipeg to take up her duties as Duchess, so that she would no longer be able to play cards with L in the City. Now one can think of ways round this - for instance, duchesses probably have a lot of freedom to travel, so she may be based in Winnipeg, but visiting the City when this letter is sent. But I don't think we can rule out the possibility that this is another R - presumably Ramona. TBL is of course about the possibility of duplication of names; it has also been emphasised in the main series about the time this was published, with the 'JS' theme in TGG and TPP. And there does seem to be another example of duplicated initials within TBL; when Lemony says 'I must remember to call O '"L"', one naturally takes this to refer to some disguise of Olaf's (who is called O elsewhere in the book), but I'm fairly sure the real meaning is 'to call Olivia "Lulu"'.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 13, 2020 14:02:51 GMT -5
But Hermes ... # 3 explicitly quotes My Silence Knot. How do you explain it? And how do you explain the argument I used above regarding the comparison between # 3 and # 5? I agree that putting Beatrice dressed as a butterfly in a play in which she is a bat trainer is a logical challenge. But we are talking about plays. And we're talking about a play in which the main character dies. (According to the poem My Silence Knot). I believe that in the play she dies and symbolically transforms into a butterfly.
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Post by Hermes on Aug 13, 2020 17:14:53 GMT -5
I'm afraid I don't understand either of these questions. As far as I can see you have not previously mentioned #5. And how do you know that #3 explicitly quotes My Silence Knot? We don't have the text of the play.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Aug 13, 2020 18:12:54 GMT -5
Excuse me, I wrote it wrong. I was sleepy. I meant # 4 quotes directly from My Silence Knot. # 3 does not directly quote My Silence Knot, however, in the above argument I showed that a comparison between # 3 and # 5 indicates that the play cited in # 3 is My Silence Knot. (Just look at question 4).
Let me be clear on one detail. Letter # 4 evidently refers to the play My Silence Knot and we know that because the name of the play is written on the letter. It is true that # 3 the name of the play is not described in the letter. But we have the description of an event that is Lemony becoming a Theater Critic. Consider this event as a timemark. It was only after this event that at least one Hatpin was used as a signal. This means that the poem My Silence Knot going written after this timemark. (because the poem mentions the use of Hatpin as a disguise). Then, when you read # 5 question 4 you realize that the next day that the poem My Silence Knot was placed by Beatrice in the program of the play My Silence Knot Lemony had to deliver a Review of the that play to Miss Poe, indicating that he has already he was a theater critic in that day. Therefore, my deduction that # 3 and # 4 talk about the play My Silence Knot has to be right. Other details may even be wrong in my theory. But surely # 3 and # 4 refer to My Silence Knot. This is a fact. What is debatable is whether or not it is the same presentation as My Silence Knot. I believe so.
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