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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Sept 30, 2022 9:26:55 GMT -5
Okay, so let's talk a little bit about the intro. We have a reference to VFDHQ. Through TBL and TSS we know that Lemony spent time at VFDHQ. Dante once mentioned that "headquarters" is an English word that is spelled the same in the singular and plural, so it's impossible to know how many "headquarters" there are in the Lemony region. However, the fact that TBL relates the VFD HQ to the mountains as well as TSS, makes me conclude that the VFDHQ mentioned in the intro is the same one we see destroyed in TSS. Now that we know who Walleye is through ?4, we can see how much Lemony respects librarians in general. The contact that Lemony had with him was very quick. As I have already explained in some of my theories, every VFD era seems to be unofficially led by a group of people who carry out similar activities. At the time when the main story of ATWQ takes place, it seems that whoever took the lead in VFD were the instructors of the new members of the organization. As we know, Lemony in ATWQ doesn't seem to agree with the direction the organization was taking. So I think this introduction shows that Lemony was advocating the idea that VFD leadership should be exercised by librarians. This is an interesting point of view. While teachers push knowledge into students' minds even if it is sometimes against the students' wishes, librarians open the door to knowledge for people who are looking for it and point to where the search for knowledge can be done by people themselves. What is the best way to educate young minds? I think this is a subtle theme of ATWQ and it will be fun to reread the story from that point of view.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Sept 30, 2022 14:03:28 GMT -5
Notes on Chapter 1: "I would not see the Hemlock Tearoom and Stationery Shop again for years and years." I think this indicates that Lemony is writing ATWQ through his memoirs from many years earlier. Like ASOUE, ATWQ is not a record of events that have just happened. It is a record of the past. Perhaps this explains some apparent discrepancies between ATWQ and File Under 13. The Town of SBTS in ATWQ appears to have far fewer people than in File Under 13. The cases of File Under 13 were written at the time of the recorded events, while ATWQ was written many, many years later, as indicated in that sentence. Lemony's memories must have played a little trick on him about how alive the town still was.
"There is no easy way to train an apprentice. My two tools are example and nagging. I will show you what it is I do, and then I will tell you to do other things yourself."
I think this is an example of what I meant earlier. S treats Lemony as if he doesn't know anything, and she as a chaperone would teach him her way.
I always wondered what was going on in VFD at this time. It wasn't the Great VFD Schism that culminated in the formation of an incendiary group. According to LSTUA, it appears that this Great Schism occurred when Lemony was a small child, at the time he was tattooed on his ankle. So around the time Lemony was about to turn 13, there was some other significant event that fragmented the firefighting side that Lemony and Olaf were a part of. I believe TBL references this event, in LS to BB# 2. Lemony in a letter to Beatrice wrote something about "a wet viper perm". The entire context of the letter involves anagrams, which could be translated to "pre-emptive war". The attitude of Lemony's false parents seems to be a preparation for an event of betrayal towards VFD, as if a great uprising was about to happen.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Sept 30, 2022 16:56:29 GMT -5
Notes on Chapter 2:
Chapter 2 mentions a friend of Lemony who had just graduated, a girl who knew all about underwater life. I wonder who that person could be. Lemony is known to have few friends. Mrs W? Perhaps, but her specialty was fungi. Nothing prevents her from having more than one specialty. There is also Josephine... Although we had a lot of contact with her, and at no time did she show any knowledge about marine life. I like to think that the person in question is Beatrice, and that she used her knowledge of marine life to control BB/TGU, and that she used her whistling skills to control the beast... and that she was in the beast's mouth when saved the Quagmires, which is why Quigley called out the name "Violet?" before being swallowed for salvation (Violet looked like Beatrice).
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Oct 1, 2022 13:19:27 GMT -5
I remember when the first two chapters or so were avaible as previews, and overall they gave me a very different as to what the series was going to be. Even though the first chapter is essentially 'Lemony goes away from the VFD plot', at the time I was full expecting this subplot to be, well, the main plot. Unltimately, ATWQ resits the traditional forumla of a prequel, instead opting to essentially tell a brad new story with, lets face it, brand new characters. I like the story, and I enjoy it for what it is, but I do wish we would one day get a true ASOUE prequel.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Oct 1, 2022 22:31:52 GMT -5
Chapter 2: In Chapter 2, Lemony talks about a book on the history of the city's sewer system. It is to be expected that the official VFD tunnels were already created, for the most part. So Lemony wanting to use the sewer system for some purpose demonstrates his willingness to use his own means to get around the city's underground, rather than the more conventional means of VFD.
"I could see the insignia on the letter, which matched that of my letter of introduction."
Apparently VFD was known to provide help from volunteer private detectives in SBTS. The fact that Lemony Snicket on TBL became during the time Beatrice Jr was trying to find him shows that Lemony's hands-on training was originally to do this job, not to become an obituary writer or a theater critic. . Although studying "rhetoric" can be useful for many functions. But what strikes me most is that VFD was not an extremely secret organization.
So let me think:
I don't really remember all the details... "Mrs. Sallis" was being manipulated by Hangfire... she was an actress, if I'm not mistaken. But let me remind myself of a few things: Hangfire wanted the figurine to control the beast he had bred in captivity. The figurine had belonged to the Malahan family for generations. Hangfire had tried to steal the figurine using messages and phone calls. So he thought it would be a good idea to use VFD to steal the figurine for him? This seems too complex to me... I'm sure he could have tried to rob himself personally, or used a member of the secret organization he created. Why did he think it would be a good idea to involve VFD in this?
Something must have influenced Hangfire to deduce that this was the best alternative. I think that, in the first place, there was what is indicated in FU13: the city of SBTS was full of members of different secret organizations, in such a way that it was necessary to make an appointment to use a certain street as a meeting point. It can be concluded that some of these secret organizations also considered Hangfire an enemy, and perhaps these organizations used the masks to allow their members to roam around stealthily just as Hangfire was doing. Thus, it is quite possible that at other times, members of these organizations partially disrupted some of Hangfire's plans. So it is understandable that Hangfire, knowing that VFD was about to act on SBTS once again, he decided to use the VFD way of acting to help get what he wanted. Rather than risk going to the lighthouse in person, and end up being seen by your disguised enemies (members of other secret organizations) it would be better to let a member of one of the secret organizations go there. As there appears to be a non-intervention agreement between the organizations working in SBTS (as indicated in FU13), VFD members could enter and leave the lighthouse without being disturbed.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Oct 2, 2022 5:30:03 GMT -5
In ATWQ I think Daniel Handler is attempting to create a contrasting series to ASOUE - a tightly consturcted four part mystery, where almost all of the questions will actually be answered, and everything will tie up together neatly. However, there are a lot of places where this is not the case. I think Daniel Handler fell victim to the same thing that happened in ASOUE - he changed his mind a lot as he was going along, and so various things that were set up or introduced in the first book or two are either not paid off in the end, or the answer is actually different to the question that he asked in the first place. I think what Jean is talking about (Why would Hangfire contact VFD?) is one example of this. I can't think of or recall an answer to the question, but it's such an obvious point to address that Handler must have had a simpler solution in mind at the time, but it simply fell to the wayside. I think this characteristic of ATWQ extends in a few other ways as well, such as a few timeline issues relating to the backstory, and also in the way that Hnagfires telephoning-mimic abilities are never explained, and barely even mentioned after the second book.
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Post by Reba on Oct 2, 2022 7:35:04 GMT -5
if anyone can send me a PDF of this, i would gladly read it, TIA. bonus points if you get me Les fausses bonnes questions de Lemony Snicket, so i can pull some twiggy salsa.
edit: i have obtained a PDF from Mr. Lucio. i'd still take a french copy, FYI, TIAA
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Post by Reba on Oct 3, 2022 5:09:53 GMT -5
thoughts on chapter 1:
i have little memory of the series beyond the broadest strokes of plot, so any questions i have will be largely uninformed. for example, i don't remember if anything is resolved with regard to Snicket's fake parents. i particularly don't understand how Snicket is meant to be fooled into thinking they are his real parents. is it implied that he hasn't ever seen his real parents in the time between his infancy (when the VFD took him) and graduation, at which point this sinister couple intercepted him and claimed to be his parents? i enjoyed this ominous hint before the revelation at the end of the chapter -- Fake Dad is "a large-shouldered man", which is then echoed in "A man with large shoulders could force open a door like that even if it were locked."
as semblance points out, there are more suggestions at the beginning here than we may expect later on, regarding Snicket's immaturity, and Theodora's competence. i know it is DH's MO to portray children as far more dignified than adults, but like in ASOUE, that disparity seems to increase to a cartoonish level by the end of the series. much like Olaf in, say, TBB vs TGG, Theodora at this point is a slightly more realistic portrayal of an antagonistic adult, while later i seem to recall her becoming a complete buffoon. and Snicket's gang, by the end of the series, are positively dripping with nobility. i think children are mostly just as despicable as adults, and there are not enough Carmelitas and Stews in DH's universe to make that evident.
Bear's Verified Favorite Drollery: "Don't repeat yourself. It's not only repetitive, it's redundant, and people have heard it before."
chapter 2:
DH drinking game: take a shot every time a character "frowns."
our introduction to the bizarre, fantastical topography of Stain'd-by-the-Sea is quite taxing on the imagination. i wonder what DH's primary inspiration was. the trope of a 'near-abandoned town full of secrets' does not come anywhere near explaining this place.
Bear's Verified Favorite Description: "Twice I almost fell asleep thinking of places and people in the city that were dearly important to me, and the distance between them and myself growing and growing until the distance grew so vast that even the longest-tongued bat in the world could not lick the life I was leaving behind."
a final thought: to be frank, i always hated Seth's illustrations. i hate the stiff, clunky, heavily outlined look. and all the goofy sesame street-esque block letters and the cutesy color-coded book design mean that there ain't no kind of noir vibes. ("File Under" is marginally better.)
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Post by Reba on Oct 3, 2022 6:15:27 GMT -5
I like to think that the person in question is Beatrice, and that she used her knowledge of marine life to control BB/TGU, and that she used her whistling skills to control the beast... and that she was in the beast's mouth when saved the Quagmires, which is why Quigley called out the name "Violet?" before being swallowed for salvation (Violet looked like Beatrice).
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Post by HAL 10,000 on Oct 3, 2022 16:56:03 GMT -5
I have to agree with Mister M that ATWQ is, at least in theory, a contrast of ASOUE, where the mystery of all tied up in a neat little bow albeit with some loose ends that could be chalked up to DH trying to incorporate too many plot threads at the same time.
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Oct 3, 2022 21:16:49 GMT -5
I think DH's chaotic creativity is what allows me to make theories trying to close the plot holes he left. I like that.
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Post by HAL 10,000 on Oct 3, 2022 23:30:44 GMT -5
Chapter 1: I'm not too keen on the art style. I miss Brett Helquist. I never thought about it before, but it is interesting to think of how your family might look to strangers. Wonder if that awful porridge Mr Poe made in TBB would be in the Museum of Bad Breakfast. Lemony describes himself as a mediocre musician, which suggests that he was already playing accordion by this point, albeit not very well. So that's where Lemony picked up his word-defining habit.
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Post by Isadora Is a Door on Oct 4, 2022 1:09:56 GMT -5
I'm totally here for Bear taking part in a series Lemony Snicket discussion Fake Dad is "a large-shouldered man", which is then echoed in "A man with large shoulders could force open a door like that even if it were locked." Nice catch, I don't think I'd noticed that before. We need more of these Art; I agree that the art style is not the greatest, and the illustrations in FU13 are definitley the best, but I do like the use of different colours in each book.
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Post by Reba on Oct 4, 2022 4:21:12 GMT -5
i'll admit the four covers taken together have an effect which could be described as "snazzy" -- but i think the inside illustrations should have all been "grisaille."
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Post by Optimism is my Phil-osophy on Oct 4, 2022 10:52:13 GMT -5
About the illustrations, I literally stopped reading ATWQ for a long time because of the illustrations. After the first season of Netflix's ASOUE, I started consuming fan content, so I was forced to read atwq to avoid spoilers. I can say that I went from a complete hatred to a true attachment to this art style. I can say that it was the illustrations that helped me to accept ATWQ as something really different from ASOUE. At the same time I can say that I didn't have any expectations of the story being anything Noir at any point in the first reading. In fact, I was taken aback by the end of ?4, where Lemony commits a murder. That was very impactful for me, exactly because I hadn't understood the meaning and inspiration of the work. I was looking to make theories about ASOUE by reading ATWQ and it caught me off guard. This is my first re-reading of atwq, and I'm happy to be able to imagine something Noir from the beginning. I can say that the illustrations really prevent that, but at the same time they helped me to reinforce the impact in ?4. So I have nothing to complain about.
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