Lemony, Birth Father?

[Dante]

All that is correct, but you can probably quibble about the length of time Bertrand and Beatrice were on the island for.

[Christmas Chief]

Well, long enough to become falicitators, and I'd think that'd take some time. (So as to gain trust of the islanders.)

[atticus]

I agree with Sora. See, I have just re-read the 12th and 11th book (which book I found the quote in escapes me), but as quoted in one of the books, the orphans were talking about a\how their mother used to say "Bertrand, prepare to eat cow!" when she was playing cards with their father. Now, I suspect that Lemony is Beatrice's brother.

[luvzi12]

What I gathered from the books, was that Lemony Snicket was in love with Beatrice, but did not return his feelings. As well as this, when she thought Lemony was dead she married the Baudelaire's father (sorry I don't know his name...) (Edit: BERTRAND!) and had the three Baudelaire children.
Then, obviously, Beatrice and Bertrand Baudelaire died in the fire, leaving the Baudelaire orphans.

Snicket, for whatever reasons, perhaps to track them down and protect them in honour of Beateice or to find his young niece [Kit's daughter, Beatrice], wrote down the Baudelaire's story in all it's grim details.

The Snicket file states, 'Because of the evidence discussed on page nine, experts now believe that there may in fact be one survivor of the fire, but the survivor's whereabouts are unknown.' This was not referring to the fire that killed the Baudelaire parents, but the fire that Lemony was assumed to have perished in.

Unfortunately I have forgotten which fire this was, if we were even told, but I remember that there were references throughout the books of Lemony's dislike of fire and that he had been in one.

So, in my opinion, Lemony Snicket is not the children's father.

[Dante]

That's pretty much how I read it, luvzi12. Lemony himself having been in a fire is something that's not explicitly stated, I think, but it's certainly an interesting and logical idea.

[Hermes]

Apr 17, 2010 15:22:16 GMT -5 luvzi12 said:

What I gathered from the books, was that Lemony Snicket was in love with Beatrice, but did not return his feelings.

She had at one time returned his feelings, but later changed her mind; they had been engaged, but she broke it off. (See TBL and The End.) Apart from that I agree with you, and I think that is the general consensus.

The Snicket file states, 'Because of the evidence discussed on page nine, experts now believe that there may in fact be one survivor of the fire, but the survivor's whereabouts are unknown.' This was not referring to the fire that killed the Baudelaire parents, but the fire that Lemony was assumed to have perished in.

Now, that is a new theory, and a quite fascinating one. I agree it doesn't refer to the Baudelaire fire. Quigley thought it referred to the Quagmire fire, and to him. But I guess it could refer to a fire Lemony was thought to have perished in - we're never told about a specific fire of which this is true, but Lemony's death seems to have been reported several times. This would explain why the remark is illustrated with a picture which features Lemony, among others. One problem is that we are told in TSS that Lemony helped to compile the file; but perhaps he was involved only in the early stages?

[luvzi12]

Apr 17, 2010 15:54:00 GMT -5 Hermes said:

One problem is that we are told in TSS that Lemony helped to compile the file; but perhaps he was involved only in the early stages?

I assume so, as it was the last page of the file, but who can say?

[friendofvfd]

Sorry ThatEvanguy, and anyone else, but I don't think Lemony is the father of anybody. Remember, Beatrice and Bertrand had already been living on the island for quite a few years when Beatrice became pregnant with Violet. So Lemony cannot be her father, or any of the others.

[Dante]

Do we know the exact length of time that the Baudelaire parents had been living on the island? I can only find a reference in Chapter Ten to Ishmael having arrived on the island when they had been there "a few months," at which point he swiftly forced them out. I do agree that Beatrice probably became pregnant with Violet on the island, though, but "a few months" gives a certain amount of leeway.

[Hermes]

For Lemony to be Violet's father, the following has to happen (not necessarily in this precise order) within nine months:
Lemony and Beatrice split up.
Beatrice hears that Lemony is dead.
Beatrice marries Bertrand.
Beatrice and Bertrand are cast up on the island.
Beatrice and Bertrand become facilitators.
Beatrice and Bertrand are thrown off the island.
Lemony sends a telegram to Beatrice, thus letting her know that he is alive.

Now, this being Snicketland, all these things could happen in two weeks (though actually we know it wasn't quite that fast, as B and B had been on the island for several months). Still, plausibility counts against it, I feel.

[B.]

I don't think it's at all possible that Violet could be Lemony's daughter. It's fun to fantasize but it couldn't ever happen.
Besides in the telegram sent by Lemony in TBL Lemony writes about the news of Beatrice's Pregnancy. It says rumors have reached him (was Beatrice well known in the city?) so this must've been sent after they left the Island. In the last paragraph of the message Lemony says:
"Forgive me for contacting you one last time STOP After all these years I know how dangerous this is...."
Implying that this was sent some time after they stopped seeing each other. And Beatrice sent that 200 page book before she believed Lemony was dead, right?

[Dante]

Correct; why would she send such a text to a person she believed to be dead? And indeed, you're right to say that Lemony strongly implies that it's been years since they met. In addition, if he was the father of Violet, Beatrice's pregnancy might be slightly less of a surprise to him.

[Hermes]

I think it quite likely that the telegram is intended specifically to stop speculation about Violet. We know that L met B at the masked ball and tried to give her the message he had been waiting to give 'for fifteen long and lonely years'. The telegram tells us when those years begin - this was the last time he tried to contact her - and shows, therefore, that they do not begin with the breakup, which was some time earlier.

[Hermes]

I think the 'Lemony is Violet's father' theory will never completely go away. It is improbable, but it's not totally ruled out, and so it remains a fascinating idea - a sort of ready-made piece of fanfic.

[friendofvfd]

Well, I truly believe that Bertrand is the biological father to all three of them. And that Lemony just doesn't have any children. I just don't think that's what Handler wanted, I thought it was obvious in the series that Mr. and Mrs. Baudelaire are the parents of Violet, Klaus and Sunny. End of story. If it turned out Snicket was the father, Handler would have mentioned it in the series or at least put in a clue, but there is none. And from the way some of the storylines happened in the series, including TBL and UA, Snicket's love for Beatrice was more on his side, meaning I don't think she loved him as much as he did. I believe she did love him, I don't doubt that, but I don't think it was as strong as how he felt toward her. And also, she's the one that broke up the engagement and wrote him a LONG letter of reasons why she couldn't marry him. And it just seemed obvious to me that this all happened way before Violet was conceived. And then after Snicket was presumed dead, Beatrice was probably very upset, but knew she had to move on, and in a way she already did, because even before he "died" they were already broken up for some time. And that's when she fell in love with Bertrand, married him and soon after she became pregnant with Violet. Yes, I understand everyone is entitled to their own opinions and theories and that's great! That's what makes it so much fun! But to me, this just seems more believable in the series, and I think Handler made it so. Unless Handler talks more about the series we will never know, but according to him, the case of the Baudelaire's is closed, so I don't think there are any "paternity" secrets at all. And the Baudelaire's were already on the island for some time when she was pregnant with Violet. With them working on the island to make it more usable for the islanders and all.