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Post by Mijahu on Mar 1, 2009 21:18:13 GMT -5
Well Mr. Poe's promotion happened during TVV, I thought. Isn't that where Snicket says he was "recently promoted?" I haven't read it for a few months, so I'm not sure.
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Post by Hermes on Mar 2, 2009 10:29:35 GMT -5
Some responses. I never liked Quigley as the survivor of the fire, and I don't consider him as fulfilling references to survivors in the U.A. and in the BBRE. Long after Handler has made it clear that the issue is closed, I'm still fighting for my interpretation. That's what it means to be a fan, right? Ah, but, you see... [Restrains self.] We can discuss it when we reach TUA. I don't think Olaf has to be confined to one method, or putting it another way, I don't think Handler has to be confined to imagining one method. It any case, it's not clear that Olaf started all the fires in the series; there seem to be other fire-starting villains at large. By the way, if Quigley is the fire-survivor, this might explain the link to page 18. He claims what? Could you give me a reference? The context may make a difference to how we read it. My suspicion is that he just means he knew that Olaf would die - thus allowing an ambiguous ending, which is neither the triumph of evil not unequivocally happy - rather than that he had the whole of the last book plotted out. (Authors show a regrettable failure to think like fans, sometimes.  Are you thinking of the problem of when it happened? I though of mentioning that, but decided it would complicate matters too much. (I think that by the time of TSS, Handler definitely saw it as later than the Baudelaire fire. However, if you want it to be earlier, an alternative theory to explain the logs would be that they were used to burn down the house of the other orphans who attended Prufrock Prep, the ones Kit recruited.) I don't think the ambiguity needs to be resolved particularly; it's a double meaning that enriches the passage. It may be worth noticing that this passage does strongly suggest that Beatrice is Violet's mother. I'm beginining to think that she may, after all, always have been the Baudelaires' mother (at least after she became anyone in particular, since I agree with Dante that originally she may not have been); I think the pieces of evidence which suggest otherwise can be finessed. But this can be discussed later. Mijahu: From TUA, it seems likely that he was being sabotaged to some extent by his sister. Jasper: Well, strictly what Olaf didn't know was that the Hotel Denouement was the last safe place; and the real LSP is the underwater library, not the visible hotel. (That said, the way the hotel is presented in TPP certainly doesn't fit what we've been lead to believe hitherto; how, for instance, could anyone even imagine it was the last safe place when one of its managers is a villain, and apparently well known as such?) |
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Post by Dante on Mar 2, 2009 11:59:34 GMT -5
Oh yes, and a note on Mr. Poe having adoption papers hidden under his hat. Olaf does not state that Mr. Poe was VPiCoOA at the time of having the adoption papers under his hat, just that Mr. Poe was at some point promoted to VPiCoOA; this could have been before or after the promotion. I'm not so sure, cwm. The precise quote is, “The adoption papers were hidden in the hat of a banker who had been promoted to Vice President in Charge of Orphan Affairs.” It seems to me that he is indeed stating that the individual in question had been promoted to VPiCoOA at the time he had the adoption papers under his hat. In fact, it implies that it could have happened at any time after this promotion; the banker in question could have been fired and re-hired a dozen times, just so long as he was a banker who at one point had been promoted to VPiCoOA. So if you like, I suppose you could suggest that "our" Mr. Poe had been VPiCoOA before and had later been demoted, all before TBB, and this would fulfil the requirements. But I'm not at all certain the quote from The End stretches to a character who had not at the time received this promotion. He claims what? Could you give me a reference? The context may make a difference to how we read it. My suspicion is that he just means he knew that Olaf would die - thus allowing an ambiguous ending, which is neither the triumph of evil not unequivocally happy - rather than that he had the whole of the last book plotted out. (Authors show a regrettable failure to think like fans, sometimes. I can't really be motivated to find a quotation, as he's said it a couple of times, and that is literally all he said; that he always knew how it would end. No details. If I recall correctly what he does in at least one example is say that he always knew how it would end, and then veer off onto a slight tangent... But the interpretation I would also follow is that he knew a few plot elements - let's say island, Olaf dead, maybe a baby - but did not indeed have the whole of the last book plotted out. I'm going to enjoy talking about this element when we get to TPP. |
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Post by cwm on Mar 2, 2009 12:04:46 GMT -5
Hm. I was certain the wording was 'was', which would be suitably ambigous.
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Post by Hermes on Mar 4, 2009 10:20:40 GMT -5
It would seem to me that this was the Baudelaire parents' only means of getting time for VFD discussions - however I suppose they could also do it while the Baudelaires were at school (if indeed the Baudelaires actually attended real school before TAA.) There is a place in TAA where Klaus says it will be nice to be in a real classroom again, so it seems they did. |
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Post by VKSB on Mar 5, 2009 17:01:58 GMT -5
Sorry it took me so long to post, I've been really busy with school. I see that we are already on week two but I just finished TBB. I've read everyones notes and the only thing I can come up with that I haven't already seen posted is how Violet's right hand is referenced several times in the book before she actually signs her name with her left on the marriage document. On page 2 it states that she skips rocks and is right handed. Page 51, she is serving with her right hand and considers switching to her left, and again it states she can't because she is right handed. On page 72 she eats her oatmeal with her right hand. Page 120 Violet throws the grappling hook with her right hand. Page 132 She grasps the banister with her right hand. Obviously all eluded to Violet not signing the marriage document "in her own hand" but instead with her left hand. I'm not sure if anyone else noticed or posted this, but it was just something I noticed throughout the book. Sorry if it's already been said  |
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Post by Dante on Mar 5, 2009 17:12:35 GMT -5
I missed the oatmeal one! Fine work.
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Post by Grey Umbrella on Mar 6, 2009 20:00:30 GMT -5
Well, I'm in. I quite like the dynamic within Olaf’s troupe in TBB; while later on they’re all blunderers who he treats as servants and idiots, they seem on a much more equal footing. They aren’t just Olaf’s “assistants.” I can’t picture the white-faced women saying later on in the series, “Here you are, Olaf. What in the world are you doing?”. . . The theater troupe laughed, and a few of them applauded as if Count Olaf had done something very brave instead of something despicable. …“Come on, friends,” Count Olaf said to his comrades. As I’ve said before – I really like the way Olaf and his troupe interact here. It feels more human. Of course, they’re soon relegated to the role of servants, hanging around guarding doors in Olaf’s house, but there are signs of difference. I completely agree, in fact I would have liked to have seen more of this throughout the series. Just a quick note about p. 31, when the children are remembering times with their parents: "Violet had burned the toast, and their parents, smelling smoke, had run downstairs to see what the matter was." - The Bad Beginning, p. 31 The Baudelaire parents were probably thinking that it was arson, rather than burnt toast. Now onto the Author's Notes. p. 2 On that particular occasion, the Baudelaire parents not only gave their children permission but encouraged them to leave the house, as the adults had some pressing business to attend to. This business was delayed indefinitely due to death. Also note that the trolley has since collapsed, and its remains were recycled into the foundation of a hotel.One can't help but wonder what kind of "pressing business" this might have been. Perhaps something to do with the stolen poisonous plant? Sigh. I guess we'll never know. The hotel mentioned is most likely the Hotel Denouement. p. 6 The height of a top hat provides a good-sized hollow space over the head of the wearer, which can be used as a hiding place. If one is using a top hat for such purposes, it is important to remember that one must remove it very carefully.
Also, an earlier draft of The Bad Beginning uses this phrase instead: Mr. Poe took off his top hat carefully.The hidden object is revealed in The End: " ". . . we decided to rob a sealing schooner owned by - " "Humphrey," Weyden said. "No," Olaf said with another frown. "There was some argument about his name, actually, as a baby adopted by his orphaned children also bore the same name." "Bertrand," Omeros said. "No," Olaf said, and frowned yet another time. "The adoption papers were hidden in the hat of a banker who had been promoted to Vice President in Charge of Orphan Affairs." "Mr. Poe?" asked Sadie. " Yes," Olaf said with a scowl . . ." " - The End, p. 251 p. 8 Incidentally, the Royal Gardens had several ornate wooden benches ideal for sitting and reading, or for contemplating the more exotic plants contained in the Poisonous Pavilion. All of these benches where lost in the destruction except one, which has since been moved to the lobby of a hotel. It is easily recognizable due to a small unsightly ring, left by someone who did not use a coaster underneath his or her beverage.This bench is seen at least twice in The Penultimate Peril, however I'm unsure of it's significance (if any) : ". . . next to a large, wooden bench marked with the number 128. Klaus ran his hand along the bench, which was etched with rings, from people setting down glasses without using coasters." - The Penultimate Peril, p. 56 ". . . there was no one on the wooden bench, only a few etched rings from people wicked enough to set down glasses without using coasters." - The Penultimate Peril, p. 292-293 p. 55 Two people did, of course.Who? I'm actually upset that this remains a mystery. They were undoubtedly using the peepholes or cameras mentioned in the author's note on p. 25: Also, my sister has proposed that some of these eyes hid secret peepholes, cameras, or microscopic lenses, as in the Baudelaire home. It is not unlikely that Olaf's house is connected to the network of secret passageways, as he was once a member of VFD. This would allow anyone with knowledge of the passageway to gain access to the house. I, personally, like Kit Snicket for this, as she had such a personal connection to Olaf. p. 104 The purpose for these logs was not discovered for quite some time, when I interviewed the former students at Prufrock Preparatory School concerning their orphaned classmates.
Please see also my note to page 18.The note with the most likely connection to this one refers us to the p. 62 note, which reads: Readers of Book the Seventh will remember that fountains are like top hats in that they provide hollow spaces in which things can be hidden (please see my note to page 6), and I imagine the damp surroundings of a fountain’s innards would be comforting if the person hiding inside had recently survived a fire. These two notes connect the logs to the Quagmire triplets, although I'm not sure what their purpose might be. p. 134 The Victorian art of flower arranging is a coded system in which each flower in an arrangement conveys a certain message . . . Please see also my notes to pages 6, 18 and 62.The three notes with the most likely connection to this one refer to hiding places (Mr. Poe's hat and the two fountains). This suggests that the vase was being used as a hiding place, and the flowers were used to send a coded message to someone in the audience, presumably referencing the hidden object. p. 157 My commonplace book contains at least seventeen interviews with people who remarked that due to the facial resemblance, the white dress, and the dim lighting, Violet Baudelaire looked quite a bit like a woman who is no longer alive.This suggests that one or more of the seventeen people interviewed knew Beatrice well enough to recognize a facial resemblance between her and Violet, and therefore may have been connected to VFD. With the possibility of coded messages being relayed to the audience, this is looking awfully likely. |
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Post by Hermes on Mar 20, 2009 10:01:06 GMT -5
Just a quick note about p. 31, when the children are remembering times with their parents: "Violet had burned the toast, and their parents, smelling smoke, had run downstairs to see what the matter was." - The Bad Beginning, p. 31 The Baudelaire parents were probably thinking that it was arson, rather than burnt toast. Oh, well spotted! But it's difficult to make this work, because, as I think Dante mentioned, Mr Poe had not been promoted to VP in Charge of Orphan Affairs at the time he had something hidden in his hat. We were forced to conclude that the person mentioned in TE was a different Mr Poe. Might they not just have remembered Beatrice from her time as an actress? It takes only one secret agent in the audience to make it worthwhile to relay secret messages; the rest of the audience may just have been there for the entertainment. |
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Post by cwm on Mar 20, 2009 10:32:06 GMT -5
I still maintain that it's ambigous if Mr. Poe had the promotion at that time or not.
Even with the 'had'.
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Post by Mijahu on Mar 20, 2009 12:01:10 GMT -5
While it's not totally dismissed in the books, I don't think Mr. Poe had the promotion at the time. Still, though, I think Olaf could be talking about the same Poe. I mean he was, eventually, VPiCoOA.
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Post by Hermes on Mar 20, 2009 15:29:46 GMT -5
It's tricky. Olaf also says that at that time Mr Poe was mostly known by his stage name, which doesn't seem to fit our Mr Poe at the time when we know him; so even if it does refer to our Mr Poe, it probably relates to an earlier incident in his life, rather than to the time of the Baudelaire fire. Either it's the same Mr Poe, and he had a habit of hiding things in his hat, or it's another Mr Poe, perhaps his father, and the Poe family had a habit of hiding things in their hats. Either way it fits the theme of The End, that similar events keep recurring as part of different people's stories.
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Post by Mijahu on Mar 21, 2009 3:06:57 GMT -5
Very true. Yes maybe it was Mr. Poe's father, and he was the one in charge of Olaf's affairs? Not sure how that fits with everything, I'm a bit rusty.
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