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Post by Christmas Chief on Nov 28, 2012 17:08:58 GMT -5
I haven't any objections to the adjustments proposed. I also find merging the dates an acceptable alternative. Edit: I'm inclined to read Handler's social commentary from TEE onwards as being a bit more serious in its intent, but in TMM it strikes me as a bit more of a joke. In what way, may I ask? You've said this about TMM elsewhere, and certainly I find parts of the novel satirical in spirit, but I'm not sure how this aspect differs from any of the later books. Upon locating the relevant passages, the lakeside room was the room in which Sir wanted to stay, but the sauna was where he could enjoy the smell of hot wood. Fair point, though I think the retcon potential for a nameless man with a bad childhood and clouded face was always high. |
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Post by Dante on Nov 29, 2012 2:33:14 GMT -5
I'm inclined to read Handler's social commentary from TEE onwards as being a bit more serious in its intent, but in TMM it strikes me as a bit more of a joke. In what way, may I ask? You've said this about TMM elsewhere, and certainly I find parts of the novel satirical in spirit, but I'm not sure how this aspect differs from any of the later books. Sir and the set-up of Lucky Smells are a bit too cartoonish, and a bit too easy. More parody than satire, I think. Although it's shades either way. I think it's more ridiculous and jokey compared to later instances, rather than being just ridiculous and a joke while they aren't. It goes along with how TMM is a much more colourful and cartoony book and doesn't sit quite so well with some of the later quasi-realism. |
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Post by MisterM on Nov 29, 2012 3:23:32 GMT -5
I wonder if Mr. Poe really thinks that the forest is lovely or if he wants to cheer the Baudelaires - I think you've hit the nail on the head there..
mostly I remember it becoming apparent in TPP - I think the witting on the bed, and also the io care about you line
Flafungdarkono - Hah.
drop ash in the lake and watch the ripples - This feels like it should mean something.
his description is actually quite similar to that of Bruce in TRR. - Back in the day, There used to be a theory that they were related. That would link sir and carmelita. I can see those two getting on well.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Nov 29, 2012 16:03:09 GMT -5
In what way, may I ask? You've said this about TMM elsewhere, and certainly I find parts of the novel satirical in spirit, but I'm not sure how this aspect differs from any of the later books. Sir and the set-up of Lucky Smells are a bit too cartoonish, and a bit too easy. More parody than satire, I think. Although it's shades either way. I think it's more ridiculous and jokey compared to later instances, rather than being just ridiculous and a joke while they aren't. It goes along with how TMM is a much more colourful and cartoony book and doesn't sit quite so well with some of the later quasi-realism. I think this is becoming much clearer as I continue rereading; at first I had trouble distinguishing TMM's approach from, say, TPP's, but I agree that they are quite different in their behavior toward their subject matter. |
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Post by Anka on Nov 30, 2012 10:47:27 GMT -5
Chapter 2: - I like the Beatrice paragraph “Violet looked straight ahead and saw a gray windowless building on the other side of the courtyard. ‘I don’t want to live,’ she said.” Did this take anyone else aback before you completed the sentence? - Yes, I thought about that too. It can't be a coincidence that the sentence is cut between these words. - The atmosphere with the people playing cards or staring into space and looking quiet reminds me of a hospital or a place for old or insane people. Chapter 3: - The paragraph about the morning is so similar to the beginning of the book about the first sentences of a book, both of them tell that when you know the beginning of something you have an idea of the whole thing. - That, if people who are good on the inside never took a bath, the world would smell more than it does is an optimistic view of the world, because it means that there are many good people. Chapter 4: - „You will be treated as members of the family“ - which/whose family? - Sir's terrible childhood is Charles' excuse for his character. Why aren't the Baoudelaires afraid of becoming like him themselves because of their terrible childhood? Or promise never to become like that? There's not even a comment like „Of course the Baudelaires knew that having had a terrible childhood is no reason to force small children to work in a lumbermill, pay employees in coupons instead of money, feed them only gum for lunch or have a cloud of smoke covering your face.“ - Doesn't Charles get half of the money from the lumbermill because of the fifty-fifty-deal? So why doesn't he buy books? |
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Post by Christmas Chief on Dec 1, 2012 12:46:51 GMT -5
- The paragraph about the morning is so similar to the beginning of the book about the first sentences of a book, both of them tell that when you know the beginning of something you have an idea of the whole thing. I almost feel this conflicts with TBB's "first impressions" paragraph. Is the condition of one's morning or the first sentence of a book not counted as a first impression? Perhaps the Baudelaires are being sympathetic here, as they have had terrible childhoods themselves. But I agree, it's strange none of the children nor the narrator question the validity of this excuse. Maybe the fifty-fifty deal is similar to deal proposed the Baudelaires? That is, Sir gets the money, and Charles gets the privilege of ironing Sir's shirts. ~Chapter Five~ It’s true the Baudelaires sound paranoid in the first paragraphs of this chapter. This might offer some merit to Mr. Poe’s saying that the children see Olaf everywhere, and in fact the children acknowledge their constant wariness a few lines later. “Because babies should not have gum, Sunny’s older siblings gave her these small tree scraps during the lunch break.” Tree scraps, more suitable than gum and twice the flavor! I think there’s an instance similar to this in TEE, only then it’s not a joke. Phil is indeed a lot more optimistic in this chapter, but also quite often wrong. Charles ironing Sir’s shirts is often cited as another of the subtle hints toward a relationship between the two, but I find myself increasingly of the opinion that these instances aren’t meant to define such a status between the two – at least not yet. In retrospect, the exchange about the eye doctor is plainly suspicious. It’s full of coincidences. ~Chapter Six~ “Violet and Sunny looked out the window to watch for him, and they were so anxious that it took them several minutes to realize that the window was not a real one, but one drawn on the blank wall with a ballpoint pen.” Just an instance I thought illustrated the “cartoonish” feel of this book well. I’m fairly confident most people would not mistake a pen drawing for a window even under the most pressing circumstances. “As anyone who’s ever been to a doctor knows, doctors are not necessarily your friends, any more than … refrigerator repairpeople are your friends.” I get the sense “refrigerator repairperson” was here chosen for its obscurity rather than to hint toward future plot direction, but in light of the events in TSS, one can’t help but see a connection. ~Chapter Seven~ “But it turned out to be more like stamping a library book.” This reminded me of Handler’s stamping copies of WCTBATH as though he were a librarian. “Violet and Sunny couldn’t help wondering if people who would make their houses out of these boards would mind having the name of the lumbermill written on the walls of their homes.” I wonder if the wood made to construct the Baudelaire home was stamped in this fashion. “We have those coupons from last month, fifty percent of a cast at Ahab Memorial Hospital. Two of us will chip in and get your leg all fixed up.” Is this really acceptable in the Snicket universe, or do these people simply lack an understanding of how coupons work? If the former, one wonders why they wouldn’t have combined their coupons in a similar fashion to purchase an extra meal, say. Why would Foreman Flacutono choose to unhypnotize Klaus, if he was only going to send him back to Dr. Orwell again moments later? Does the hypnotism last for only a specified period of time? I can’t recall at the moment, but possibly this is answered later on. ~Chapter Eight~ “We have to go see Dr. Orwell and hope for the best.” A sentiment echoed in TBL and TE. “My beloved Beatrice, before her untimely death, asked it, although she asked it too late. The question is: Where is Count Olaf?” It’s not clear here whether “too late” refers to Beatrice’s death or an unrelated incident, but I find it interesting Lemony should draw so direct a link. Did he know at this point that Beatrice was also the Baudelaire’s mother? |
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Post by Dante on Dec 1, 2012 14:48:48 GMT -5
“Violet and Sunny couldn’t help wondering if people who would make their houses out of these boards would mind having the name of the lumbermill written on the walls of their homes.” I wonder if the wood made to construct the Baudelaire home was stamped in this fashion. If so, I imagine it would've been either painted or wallpapered over. Would've been interesting if such details were just visible after the fire, but that detail would have to be reserved for a rewrite of the series that knew better where it was going. I think it's partly just funny - not just in that it shouldn't work this way, but also in that it apparently does work this way in Snicket's world. As for why they didn't combine their coupons to get extra meals - maybe they don't trust each other very much? Do we actually know that they don't co-operate like this more often? So that people don't have time to get too suspicious about his bizarre state of mind? Only his siblings really notice beforehand, but after an accident there'd be a lot more attention paid to him. Awkward questions might get asked, which he would then answer, which might be bad for the villains. Alternatively, the bald man's an idiot and didn't mean to unhypnotise him at all. If Beatrice was ever someone, and ever someone involved in the story, then who else would she be? It's only once the series opens up a bit after TVV that alternative theories become viable. I suspect that Handler later changed his mind twice on the subject, or deliberately muddied the waters. |
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Post by Hermes on Dec 1, 2012 16:06:32 GMT -5
If Beatrice was ever someone, and ever someone involved in the story, then who else would she be? It's only once the series opens up a bit after TVV that alternative theories become viable. I suspect that Handler later changed his mind twice on the subject, or deliberately muddied the waters. Almost certainly muddied the waters, I think. One of the main misleading clues is in TGG, but this comes just after BBRE, which contains a very strong clue that Beatrice is the Baudelaires' mother. I think the clues that point the other way were put in as distractions. because people were on the scent. I know the original contract was for four books, but had it been determined by the time TMM was published that the series would continue? This line is the first indication that Lemony's own story was connected with the Baudelaires' story: and I take it that once Handler had decided on that, and so decided that Beatrice would be more than a name, the Baudelaires' mother is indeed who she was. |
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Post by MisterM on Dec 1, 2012 16:38:54 GMT -5
Is the condition of one's morning or the first sentence of a book not counted as a first impression? - A First impression is more about your idea of someone chaning over time (Days, weeks, months), but the morning idea is more about how your day will be, and you don't have enough time to change your impression.
as they have had terrible childhoods themselves - The Bauds probably wouldnt put themselves in the same box as sir like we would. Its a perspective thing. Poepel who ahve terrible childhoods dont generally put temsevles in that box, but when they are older, they would. Post TSS Snicket would comment on this parallel, but not pre TSS.
Phil is indeed a lot more optimistic - This reminds me. Back when snicket introduced phil, and he talked about the optomist having his arm chewed off by an alligator, is cleverly juxtaposing Phils later accident
I wonder if the wood made to construct the Baudelaire home was stamped in this fashion. - Surely they would have noticed this?
Alternatively, the bald man's an idiot - Olafs hecnhamn are rather foolish, until TCC, where they start to be a bit more.... realistic. TSS Makes them comedic, but they still have authority. He never really see all together again after that, but they are more foolish pre TCC.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Dec 2, 2012 9:03:13 GMT -5
I think it's partly just funny - not just in that it shouldn't work this way, but also in that it apparently does work this way in Snicket's world. As for why they didn't combine their coupons to get extra meals - maybe they don't trust each other very much? Do we actually know that they don't co-operate like this more often? The issue is addressed in a conversation with Phil from an earlier chapter. Klaus: "Well, maybe we can go into town and buy some [sandwich-making] ingredients" Phil: "I wish we could, but we don't have any money." Violet: "What about your wages?" Phil: "They pay us in coupons. See, here's what we all earned yesterday ... 'Buy Two Banjos and Get One Free.' The trouble is, we can't buy two banjos, because we don't have anything but these coupons." He says "we," so the employees must not have thought of combining their earnings, or were incapable of doing so. With the logic employed to justify a free cast at the hospital, two coupons would have bought two banjos, and the third would be given free. Almost certainly muddied the waters, I think. One of the main misleading clues is in TGG, but this comes just after BBRE, which contains a very strong clue that Beatrice is the Baudelaires' mother. I think the clues that point the other way were put in as distractions. because people were on the scent. I know the original contract was for four books, but had it been determined by the time TMM was published that the series would continue? This line is the first indication that Lemony's own story was connected with the Baudelaires' story: and I take it that once Handler had decided on that, and so decided that Beatrice would be more than a name, the Baudelaires' mother is indeed who she was. That might have been why I found the line so striking, then. It's very direct, compared to the subtle hints in later volumes, as it connects Olaf to the Baudelaire fire and links Lemony into the story more concretely. However, I'm not certain how a reader would immediately know to take Beatrice as the Baudelaire's mother from this line alone. Could she not be connected to Lemony only? Phil is indeed a lot more optimistic - This reminds me. Back when snicket introduced phil, and he talked about the optomist having his arm chewed off by an alligator, is cleverly juxtaposing Phils later accident Well, paralleling, I would say. But yes, the callback is clever. As Dante mentioned above, it would have been covered in paint or wallpaper. Although it would be neat if there had been a photograph in the UA in which the mansion was being built, and you could just make out markings on the green wood. |
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Post by Hermes on Dec 2, 2012 9:34:21 GMT -5
The issue is addressed in a conversation with Phil from an earlier chapter. Klaus: "Well, maybe we can go into town and buy some [sandwich-making] ingredients" Phil: "I wish we could, but we don't have any money." Violet: "What about your wages?" Phil: "They pay us in coupons. See, here's what we all earned yesterday ... 'Buy Two Banjos and Get One Free.' The trouble is, we can't buy two banjos, because we don't have anything but these coupons." He says "we," so the employees must not have thought of combining their earnings, or were incapable of doing so. With the logic employed to justify a free cast at the hospital, two coupons would have bought two banjos, and the third would be given free. I take it depends on just what's written on the coupon. If it says 'Buy two banjos and get one free' you do indeed have to buy two banjos, but if it says 'Half the cost of a cast' you can combine them I'm not suggesting you could work it out from this line alone - just that this line shows that Handler has a plan, and it is likely that the aim of the plan was, all along, that she should turn out to be their mother. |
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Post by Christmas Chief on Dec 2, 2012 9:52:57 GMT -5
I take it depends on just what's written on the coupon. If it says 'Buy two banjos and get one free' you do indeed have to buy two banjos, but if it says 'Half the cost of a cast' you can combine them. I suppose that is appropriately illogical. I was referring more to Dante's comment, which seemed to imply that if Beatrice was ever someone involved in the story, and this line appears to say she is, then she would be the Baudelaire's mother. I don't disagree that Handler had a plan from this point onward, just that we're not meant to see its direction until much later (as the red herrings post-TVV support). Edit: ~Chapter Nine~ Olaf doesn’t make an appearance in the story until Chapter Nine, where earlier installments introduced him earlier, I think? I guess this could have to do with the reason the book experienced some negative reception. But also I think it has to do with the lack of realism applied through hypnotism and the setting in general. Sir’s memo isn’t written as threateningly as one might expect. “If the three of you continue to be bad workers, I will place you under the care of a nice young lady who would be happy to adopt three young children”? If the Baudelaires weren’t aware the “nice young lady” was in fact Count Olaf, the letter might come as a relief to them. ~Chapter Ten~ Not seeing Sir without an appointment recalls Nero’s policy in TAA, though of course here the consequences aren’t so severe. “‘A very close eye,’ [Violet] emphasized.” A pun? Perhaps not, but there are certainly other close eyes within the immediate context of the story. The fact Sir’s nameplate is made of gum strengthens Snicket’s point that “just because something is written is no reason to believe it.” At least Sir’s description as “The Boss” is accurate, whereas Shirley’s nameplate, while of higher quality, boasts a falsehood. “The accident … happened because Klaus was hypnotized.” [Violet said.] “What your brother does for a hobby is none of my concern.” For some reason this reminded me of Handler’s Publishers Weekly interview: “Mr. Snicket does not recommend any kind of recreational drug.” “I refuse to argue with you, Charles! You’re my partner! Your job is to iron my shirts and cook my omelettes, not boss me around!” So it does seem Charles has little to do with running the mill, but perhaps he is employed as Sir’s personal assistant? ~Chapter Eleven~ Wouldn’t Dr. Orwell need to have been well-read in order to write Advanced Ocular Science? “Both children felt the dread that comes when you begin a very boring and difficult book.” I’m almost surprised this line isn’t cited in critical reviews, particularly those of TMM. Why is the chapter on sunglasses a single page? “This is not the best way to read, of course, because you can make horribly wrong guesses, but it will do in an emergency.” Clearly this is meant to be funny, and it is, but I wonder if Snicket also speaks from experience? |
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Post by MisterM on Dec 3, 2012 3:20:23 GMT -5
Olaf doesn’t make an appearance in the story until Chapter Nine - I think book 8 beats this - we hear his voice, but he isnt on screen until chapter 13. Book 12 also ahs his first apperance being Chapter 9 (i think).
Wouldn’t Dr. Orwell need to have been well-read in - Not necceserarily (Wow. thats a spelling.) Its jsut her area of expertise.
Why is the chapter on sunglasses a single page? - I feel like its a joke i have missed.
I will wait until Sherry has posted notes for the last two chapters, before moving onto TAA.
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Post by Dante on Dec 3, 2012 3:26:45 GMT -5
I think you can be an expert in a subject whilst also being evil. Count Olaf is arguably similarly-experienced in arson.
As for the delay on Olaf's appearances, in TPP he appears first at the very end of Chapter Eight, which I think still counts, but for THH I'd count the first time we hear his voice. TGG's a bit trickier, as we see him very briefly in about Chapter Four or so but then he doesn't show up again until Chapter Nine. TMM might have the biggest delay, which is interesting, as it means it's spending a lot more time building up its mystery. It's just unfortunate that it's not a mystery people tend to find very exciting.
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Post by Christmas Chief on Dec 3, 2012 5:49:08 GMT -5
I think you can be an expert in a subject whilst also being evil. Count Olaf is arguably similarly-experienced in arson. Even so, "quasi-inclusive breadth"? Where would she have picked up these words? Olaf is experienced in murder, but can't spell "poison." ~Chapter Twelve~ This chapter is incredibly surreal. For the climax of the book, I suppose I would have expected that. However, there are a number of elements here requiring a certain suspension of disbelief I don’t see repeated anywhere else the series. Why didn’t Violet push Charles out of the way in the first place, if she was indeed capable of doing so? “Quickly” is misspelled, reminding me of the malfunctioning “typewrite9” in TBL – only here I don’t think it’s intentional. “‘ Gack!’ Dr. Orwell shouted, using an expression that is in no particular language.” Except for SunnySpeak, of course. The sword fight between Dr. Orwell and Sunny is the epitome of cartoonishness in this book. It’s worse than the portrayal of hypnotism, even. It occurs to me Lucky Smells Lumbermill gum might have special properties that provide it with extra strength – not only is it able to stop a spinning blade, but it also repairs the porthole in TGG. And as someone who has never stepped into the path of a whirring saw, I can’t say whether Dr. Orwell’s death is plausible or not. However, it seems unlikely she wouldn’t take the precaution to stay well out of its way. ~Chapter Thirteen~ Is Handler acknowledging the aforementioned lack of realism in his repetitions of “It’s unbelievable”? He highlights all the more realistic examples, of course, but the characters are also the types to ignore the bigger issues. With regards to the question as to whether it was certain at this point that the books would extend past number four: On one hand, there is the My Kind Editor letter, which true to form lists specific details about what the next installment is to contain. I’m not sure if such a letter would be included if the series was to end after this installment. There is also mention of a boarding school, proposed by Sir. On the other hand, it feels as though the story itself could end after TMM. The ending is light and fairly conclusive, and there are no real plot hooks or cliffhangers that would lead a reader to a hypothetical book five. |
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