|
|
Post by MisterM on Nov 27, 2012 3:14:31 GMT -5
Referring to Josephine being alive, as the aubmarine (not even attempting to spell it) was supposedly near the house when it fell, and they ca[tured some of the books. My theory is that they helped her after she faked her detah, and then, when the leeches seemingly got her, widdershens and co picked her up. Simple as.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dante on Nov 27, 2012 4:06:06 GMT -5
Let's just say it will be interesting to re-examine that idea when you get to TGG.
|
|
|
|
Post by Anka on Nov 27, 2012 16:31:24 GMT -5
Sorry, I haven't had time yet to start with book 4, this week is very busy for me, but tomorrow afternoon I think I will have time.
Your thoughts about Josephine are very interesting, I also think she didn't die, but I never really had a reason to think that.
And you're right, TMM seems to be the point when the interesting things like VFD and Beatrice come into the books. In book 3 there was already a sentence about a boarding school the Baudelaires would go to later, so book 5 must already have been planned when the third book wasn't finished, but maybe the idea of VFD came later.
|
|
|
|
Post by Christmas Chief on Nov 27, 2012 19:13:22 GMT -5
I'm a pessimist when it comes to characters' deaths, but I'll try to be more objective when we get to TGG.
And while there's temporarily no pressure to keep up with MisterM's brutal pace, some notes on TMM:
~Chapter One~
The first sentence is pleasant enough to contemplate. “Sometime during your life – in fact, very soon – you may find yourself reading a book, and you may notice that a book’s first sentence can often tell you what sort of story your book contains.” Can anyone with a firm grasp on the implications of the word “metafictional” confirm whether or not this sentence classifies? I think it does tell us a bit about TMM, in that it sets the tone.
I don’t suppose the first three example sentences are taken from actual books. It reads as though they were made up for the purposes of clarifying an idea, but I could be wrong on this point.
“But this book begins with the sentence ‘The Baudelaire orphans looked out the grimy window of the train and gazed at the gloomy blackness of the Finite Forest, wondering if their lives would ever get any better.’” Lemony defines “book” differently than we do, then. Or possibly "begins." But that aside, I’m tempted to read “Finite” as political commentary, given its position near a lumbermill.
Mr. Poe’s “What a lovely forest!” is a great opening line for his character. I think he similarly comments in TAA that the tombstone-shaped buildings look like thumbs. He is also promoted to Vice President in Charge of Coins – is he promoted throughout the books, or is this the only instance besides VP in Charge of Orphan Affairs?
No, I don't think Handler had a name in mind for Sir. I think the various "Mr. afjkdsl-"s make clear the humor potential lies in not knowing.
And Orwell’s building is foreshadowing the events of this book, clearly, but could it also function to foreshadow the rest?
~Chapter Two~
WWBU projects a new light on this 200-page letter Beatrice wrote Lemony. I won’t discuss this too much, except to say that as the title would indicate the reasons for the ending relationship aren’t all caused by external circumstances.
“Violet looked straight ahead and saw a gray windowless building on the other side of the courtyard. ‘I don’t want to live,’ she said.” Did this take anyone else aback before you completed the sentence?
The positive spin on “You never know” is interesting given the frustrations the Baudelaires later experience with the same philosophy. Likewise for Lemony’s “I always know,” another possible use of metafiction. Although of course here he doesn’t mean it in quite that sense.
“No one has knocked on this door … for fourteen years.” Does this have significance? Given it’s Violet’s age, I mean.
I remembered Phil being a bit more cheery. I suppose this could be TGG’s Phil, or maybe I expect too much of optimists.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dante on Nov 28, 2012 3:03:56 GMT -5
I think the implications of the question over how TMM truly "begins" is that Snicket's commentary on such things is in a sense pre-empting the real start of the novel - since inevitably it would have to be inserted after the original line about the Baudelaire orphans looking out of the grimy window. Indeed, he says that you may be reading a book "very soon" rather than right now. Although the paradox is in itself humourous. I think it would be metafictional, in any case; as far as I'm aware, metafiction is fairly broadly defined, and simply constitutes fiction that is about fiction or that addresses the fictional illusion, which this is clearly doing. Poe isn't promoted again except for TEE's promotion, to my knowledge. Phil isn't quite so cheery to start with, but he quickly gets a bit more optimistic, as I recall it.
|
|
|
|
Post by MisterM on Nov 28, 2012 3:26:17 GMT -5
tomorrow afternoon I think I will have time. - Hye,a t least you#re reading it!
In book 3 there was already a sentence about a boarding school the Baudelaires would go to later- Yes! Id forgotten this! It would have been nice if during book 5 we'd had a mention of the catalouge thing from book 7, to foreshadow VFD the village.
MisterM's brutal pace - After christmas (books 8 - ATWQ 1) There will be two or more weeks per book, mainly because we will be much more liekyl to pick apart the later books...
I don’t suppose the first three example sentences are taken from actual books. - Post TSS Handler would have used actual books, but not yet.
Mr. Poe’s “What a lovely forest!” is a great opening line for his character. - With the exception of book 1, each book begins with Mr Poe saying the complete opposite to what the baudilares are thinking. Mr Poe is a nutshell really.
is he promoted throughout the books, or is this the only instance - Being in charge of coins doesn't really sound like that much of a deal if you work at a bank. You're correct in thinking the VP of OA is the only other promotion (I think) but I would have liked it if we had miniscule promotions per book (in charge of nores, etc.)
it’s Violet’s age, I mean. - Maybe this does mean something? What if handler had something big planned for when volet was a baby?.... Be sensible, M. Its probably nothing, but I can hope...
he quickly gets a bit more optimistic, - As things get worse, so do optimists.
|
|
|
|
Post by Christmas Chief on Nov 28, 2012 5:46:18 GMT -5
I think the implications of the question over how TMM truly "begins" is that Snicket's commentary on such things is in a sense pre-empting the real start of the novel - since inevitably it would have to be inserted after the original line about the Baudelaire orphans looking out of the grimy window. Indeed, he says that you may be reading a book "very soon" rather than right now. Although the paradox is in itself humourous. I think it would be metafictional, in any case; as far as I'm aware, metafiction is fairly broadly defined, and simply constitutes fiction that is about fiction or that addresses the fictional illusion, which this is clearly doing. Thanks. I wonder why he chose not to make the distinction between "book" and "story," though. I would argue that the book begins with the word "Sometime," even if the story doesn't start until we reach "The Baudelaire orphans ..." Mr. Poe’s “What a lovely forest!” is a great opening line for his character. - With the exception of book 1, each book begins with Mr Poe saying the complete opposite to what the baudilares are thinking. Mr Poe is a nutshell really. I'll have to keep a better lookout for this, then. |
|
|
|
Post by Anka on Nov 28, 2012 15:57:59 GMT -5
So here are my notes for chapter 1. I thought I would have more time today, but I had to make all the cake for my birthday tomorrow and it took more time than I thought. I hope I will finish chapter 2 today too.
Chapter 1:
- There are two whole paragraphs before the „first sentence of the book“ For me the first sentence of the book is the very first sentence, and not the first one that is relating to the story told in the book.
- I wonder if Mr. Poe really thinks that the forest is lovely or if he wants to cheer the Baudelaires up because he wants them to feel well where they are and to never come back.
- Maybe Mr. Poe's promotion is influenced by someone who doesn't want him to have enough time for the Baudelaires and their fortune.
- I still can't imagine a house that looks like an eye because I can't imagine an oval building. I always think it would fall over.
We should really take more time for one book, not only because we need more time to read and think about the books, but also because we need some time to read the others' notes and answer to them.
|
|
|
|
Post by Christmas Chief on Nov 28, 2012 16:38:54 GMT -5
- I wonder if Mr. Poe really thinks that the forest is lovely or if he wants to cheer the Baudelaires up because he wants them to feel well where they are and to never come back. I think his sentiments are genuine. Mr. Poe is a clueless character, and his tastes reflect this. Which edition of the book are you reading? The oval building is illustrated as the centerpiece on page 125 in the HC and Egmont versions. While I understand the need for a brisk pace, it's true I wouldn't mind an extra few days to get some quality thoughts together. ~Chapter Three~ I’m again tempted to read the descriptions of child labor, insubstantial wages, Foreman Flacutono’s behavior, and Sir’s morals as political commentary. “What sort of man would force small children to work in a Lumbermill? What sort of man would hire a monster like Foreman Flacotono? What sort of man would pay his employees in coupons, or feed them only gum?” This is paralleled in the "How can you" sequence in Chapter Four. ~Chapter Four~ The painting of a seashore – does this serve only to allow the Baudelaires to reminisce about the day on Briny Beach, or is there a reason it is kept near Sir’s office? I imagine Charles would have put it there. Sir requests in TPP to be placed in a room where he can smell timber, so I doubt he’d invest in a scenery illustration so far from his tastes. Sir is described as short, wearing a reptile-like green vest, and smoking a cigar: the stereotypical businessman. I do wonder if something was meant to become to become of his facelessness. Lemony writes as though it were important somehow. We even get a bit of backstory: “[Sir] had a very terrible childhood.” (Although it occurs to me now that this line could be intended as a piece of irony.) It didn’t occur to me that Charles and Sir’s relationship might extend to anything beyond business partners. But then, I don’t think there are many details suggestive of this in TMM – mostly I remember it becoming apparent in TPP. Ah, the seashore painting is given its most likely origin: “On the other wall was a row of landscape paintings, perfect for resting one’s eye.” Also, a room with only a few books is also mentioned in WCTBATH. |
|
|
|
Post by MisterM on Nov 28, 2012 16:41:43 GMT -5
Hm, The one book a weke is going fine for me, but if enough people want more time, I would be happy to change it... But I would like to have finished Book 6 before Christmas.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hermes on Nov 28, 2012 16:49:38 GMT -5
Foreman Flafungdarkono’s (Edit: Note for future reference: This is autocensored) Actually, the foreman's name is Flacutono, not Flafungdarkono - if it's written correctly there won't be a censor. Well, except that Charles doesn't actually seem to have anything to do with running the business. |
|
|
|
Post by Christmas Chief on Nov 28, 2012 16:55:36 GMT -5
Actually, the foreman's name is Flacutono, not Flafungdarkono - if it's written correctly there won't be a censor. Oh dear - thank you for that correction. I suppose I thought the anagram needed an extra N. I assumed he worked behind the scenes on public relations and the like. It suits his bright blue suit and peach-carrying personality. (Edit: Oh.) Hm, The one book a weke is going fine for me, but if enough people want more time, I would be happy to change it... But I would like to have finished Book 6 before Christmas. How's this for a makeshift schedule: Book 4: Until December 4th Book 5: December 5th - 14th Book 6: December 15th - 24th That allows for an additional two days per book, in addition to reaching the TEE goal before Christmas. If you still wanted to count TVV as one of the early books, you could continue the 9-day schedule for an extra week before transitioning into the two-week periods for books THH-TE. |
|
|
|
Post by MisterM on Nov 28, 2012 16:58:40 GMT -5
Adjust 14th to 13th, and 15th to 14th? Christmas Eve will be busy for me. My Mum wont be here on Christmas Day (no dad,) so I will spend most of the day doing christmas things with her. Or we could just merge the two days?
And then Book 7 can be December 28th - January 6th, And then revert to the two week format!
|
|
|
|
Post by Anka on Nov 28, 2012 17:05:15 GMT -5
That's a good idea. Book 7 is something like the turning point, so it's nice to have that book when the year changes.
I think it doesn't really matter if we have the 14th and 15th or the 13th and 14th, so if it's better for you we can change it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dante on Nov 28, 2012 17:08:19 GMT -5
I’m again tempted to read the descriptions of child labor, insubstantial wages, Foreman Flacutono’s behavior, and Sir’s morals as political commentary. “What sort of man would force small children to work in a Lumbermill? What sort of man would hire a monster like Foreman Flacotono? What sort of man would pay his employees in coupons, or feed them only gum?” This is paralleled in the "How can you" sequence in Chapter Four. I'm inclined to read Handler's social commentary from TEE onwards as being a bit more serious in its intent, but in TMM it strikes me as a bit more of a joke. As I recall it, in TPP Sir enjoyed being in a lakeside room as he could drop ash in the lake and watch the ripples. I don't think Sir or his backstory were intended to be more important later on; ASoUE was very episodic at that point and remained so for quite a long time, with little reference to the events of previous books, none to characters and places. I think Sir's one of the more effective examples in the series of the mystery being satisfying on its own; we don't know his real name or appearance, but it seems like just one more feature of this strange world, something to which the answer doesn't really matter. Although, incidentally, his description is actually quite similar to that of Bruce in TRR. |
|
