The 667 Dark Avenue Re-Read 2012

[Dante]

The figure of twelve weeks doesn't sync up very well to the publication dates of ASoUE. The first two were published, as far as I can tell, on the same date in 1999; TWW through TAA were all published in 2000, TEE through THH in 2001, then after that it was a single main series book a year. If the dates match up to in-universe publication dates, that would be difficult to prove as we don't know what those are. In addition, I think it unlikely that the fact the Quagmires were going to tell the Baudelaires about Jacques's brother was that he was writing books about them; the whole point was that the name "Jacques Snicket" sounded familiar, with the implication that either "Snicket" or "Lemony Snicket" was someone they already knew about, but I think if the Baudelaires knew someone was writing books about them, they would both talk about it more and remember it a bit better. It seems more likely to me that the Quagmires' information related to some infamous crime Lemony supposedly committed, the one which forced him into hiding.

[prestorjohn]

You do make a good point about the possibility that the notebook scraps related to a (supposed) crime of Lemony's, since the couplet relates to him needing to conceal his identity in public.

[Dante]

In some ways it's a bit of a moot point. The Baudelaires hear Lemony's name in Chapter Fourteen and don't recognise it at all - not in the spirit of the earlier clue, I think, but that's the way it is.

[Hermes]

It's an interesting idea. We know it is possible to get a book published very quickly in Snicketland, from the example of Odious Lusting
After Finance: and we know that at least the first two volumes of ASOUE were published while the unfortunate events were still going on. (It seems likely, though, that even these volumes were revised later, as in TRR there's a reference to what Klaus was to think later in life.) The likelihood is that the first editions were privately printed and distributed through VFD libraries, and only later did they reach the mass market, in a revised form.

If Lemony was bringing out books while the unfortunate events were happening, they must have come out more quickly than they did in in the real world - twelve-week intervals sounds possible.

As for Chapter 14, I think it's quite possible that they've never heard the name Lemony, though they've heard of the person, obliquely, several times. It seems likely that Violet first heard of him as an infant when her parents sang her The Little Snicket Lad.

[prestorjohn]

Does the in-series timeline allow for twelve-week intervals? The entire series takes place over a little more than a year, I believe, because Klaus has a birthday in TVV, and Violet does also, if I recall (though from the TVV-TE is hardly but, what, two weeks? A couple days to a week at the hospital, a few days at the carnival, two in the mountain, a few on the sub, one at the hotel, and then unspecified days/weeks on the island).

[Hermes]

The second half of the series happens very quickly, taking about two weeks in all. Dante has the details. The first half is harder to time, because we don't know just how long the Baudelaires spent with Olaf, or at Prufrock Prep, and there are also gaps between the books while they are with Mr Poe. Anything recorded in the Snicket File would obviously have to have happened during the first half.

Still - it can't really be more than half a year, so with twelve-week intervals Lemony could hardly have got beyond book 3 (and you need at least three books to have two intervals). I think the theories that these are either fires or VFD meetings are probably more likely.

[prestorjohn]

Yes, I think you're probably right.
(I'll be home this weekend from school, and I do want to check the publication dates then, but, yes, it seems more likely it isn't that.)

[Dante]

Here's the timeline for TVV through TPP as I have it worked out. TSS through TPP, at least, are unarguable as they actually give the days of the week, and I'm pretty sure the rest is totally solid as well, although it's been a long time since I've checked it over specifically. It takes fifteen days in total - shame, really; should've been thirteen.

TVV –Wednesday (Poe’s office, arrive at village, get first couplet), Thursday (get second couplet, Jacques appears), Friday (get third couplet, thrown in jail), Saturday (start walking in evening)
Total New: 4.
Start Precise: Wednesday morning.
Climax Precise: Saturday evening.
THH – Sunday (arrive at Last Chance, arrive at hospital), Monday (try to obtain Snicket File), Tuesday (disguises, operation, hospital burns down)
Total New: 3.
Start Precise: Sunday pre-dawn.
Climax Precise: Tuesday afternoon.
TCC – Tuesday (arrive), Wednesday (Fernald in charge of House of Freaks), Thursday (lion pit, carnival burns down)
Total New: 2.
Start Precise: Tuesday evening.
Climax Precise: Thursday evening.
TSS – Thursday (falling down mountain, arrive at Snow Scout cave), Friday (arrive at headquarters, research etc.), Saturday (climb up slippery slope, sledge down)
Total New: 2.
Start Precise: Thursday evening.
Climax Precise: Saturday morning.
TGG – Saturday (picked up), Sunday (grotto), Monday (travelling), Tuesday (Briny Beach)
Total New: 3.
Start Precise: Saturday morning.
Climax Precise: Tuesday morning.
TPP – Tuesday (arrive), Wednesday (trial, arson)
Total New: 1.
Start Precise: Tuesday morning.
Climax Precise: Wednesday afternoon.

[MisterM]

--Chapter Four--

So, difficult issues today/ Some people think Quigley being the survivor was retconned, and some people think that handler might have intended the original survivor to be olaf. Although I understand how people can see the olaf connection, ti seems so blindingly obvious to me that Quigley is the survivor! So, In this chapter, I’m really going to pick things apart, and see what we end up with. If anything.

So, whoever is writing the charcoal notes clearly is after the cheesemakres first annoyance at not revealing their names, and now he is planning to steal information from them.

Attention hidden in the snowman is a survivor of the fire meet us in the town where this film takes place bring the three children your new assistant is not one of us beware’

The thing that bothers me is why it cant work that Quigley is inside the snowman. We know the quagmire fire takes place after TRR, and the film has to have been made the day before the Baudelaires see it at the latest, so Mid TRR. Lets just say Quigley had a fun day on seta s an extra? Then, the next day (So, the day that Monty and co see the film) the quagmire fire takes place. Some dubbing work is done to incorporate the ‘the survivor is inside the snowman’ and the message to Monty about olaf being in disguise still goes through. That evening the film is released and Monty does not receive the message. The Following day is the second half of TRR. And then the morning after that everyone leaves Monty’s house. By this point Quigley ahs been in the tunnels for nearly 48 hours. Suppose it is possible it could take him that long to get there (Don’t forget we have no idea how far away Monty’s house is from the city. Plus the quagmire mansion could be even further away, as its never said if that was in the city or not) if he was crawling, I cant remember his exact description and actions, so I will probably come back to this when we read TSS, but it possible. I’m not an expert but I think he could survive without food or water for that time, so I am going with this theory.

However, I can see some flaws that people cold point out, and I will try to dispute these.
1. Young Rolf being played by Omar - Omar is just a boy called omar. Just something put in to confuse you all!
2. How did Gustav know Quigley survived? - Maybe he had some way of knowing Quigley was in the tunnel? Help!
3. Can a film be made that quickly? It doesn’t exactly look like a high budget film (Remember the deer?), and in snickets world, anything is posible
4. What did Gustav want motny to do with this information? - Maybe Monty knew the quagmire parents, and he was just passing the information long before he goes of to peru?

[Dante]

Increasingly I regard this whole chapter as a joke on the pieces of stock art they managed to put together.

[prestorjohn]

Right. It just doesn't work with what Quigley tells the Baudelaires (though I don't know we can take him at face value completely: he somehow knew or thought he knew about the telegram they'd sent just three or four days before, and he also "cc"s the telegram to them on the Queepeg to "JS," in this context, probably Justice Strauss, which also raises questions about how he met her; and there's still the question of how he found Kit Snicket in a matter of two to three days.)

[Charlie]

I think it's likely that Quigley was taken in to VFD. Whether or not his siblings were is disputable. In this vein, it's quite possible that Quigley did have to fudge some of the details of his journey in order to protect VFD secrets. Eg. His parents were alive all along, and went into hiding in the tunnel with him, sending him away to investigate the snow scouts (not that this is likely at all).

[Dante]

I don't know if it would make sense for Quigley to lie about such things, though. It's hard to see what he would gain by lying to the Baudelaires, who at this point are clearly in a position to be entrusted with the organisation's secrets, and indeed should be. I think Quigley, like his siblings and the Baudelaires, was just filled in on what he needed to know by whatever volunteers he encountered. His knowledge is full of holes as a consequence.

[Hermes]

I totally agree with MisterM that Quigley was, from the start, the survivor of the fire. The chapter is headed 'Where are the Quagmire triplets now?' (and the rejected questions are generally relevant to the chapters, despite Lemony not liking them), and it contains a picture of three children, two of whom were sent to Prufrock Prep. Also, the index includes 'Overboard - see Quigley', which implies that some of his future story was already worked out.

That said, I suspect that DH changed the details of Quigley's story later; that's why they don't actually fit what we learn about here. So I think that if anything there is a retcon to stop Quigley being the survivor Sebald was talking about, rather than to make him it, though he is obviously still a survivor.

I actually think it's quite important to the story that Q has not been formally initiated into VFD; the point is that you don't have to be; you can become a volunteer by volunteering. The Baudelaires go on to do the same.

As for the date of the Quagmire fire; Quigley's story seems to put it after the Baudelaire fire, and so does a line in BBRE, which suggests that the logs chopped by the Baudelaires were used to burn the Quagmire house. However, earlier it seems that Handler thought of the Quagmire fire as coming first; remember that D and I had been at Prufrock Prep for three semesters before the Baudelaires arrived; and in TUA itself the letter from Brett Helquist implies the Quagmire fire has already happened. So on that reading Q might have been in hiding for some time.

[prestorjohn]

My issue with Quigley being the survivor is that that doesn't work with the picture on page 13 (stapled to? paper clipped to? taped to), which shows Lemony, Jacques, Beatrice and Bertand (and it was probably taken by Kit, if I had to guess) which has to connect, in some way, with the text about "the survivor".
I remember towards the end of TUA that in a letter from the illustrator, Brett Helquist informs Lemony that he arrived too late to the site of a fire (and the illustration is the Baudelaire mansion) to have anything to report on the "survivor" Lemony thinks may exist.
I'm particularly inclined, based on the notes in the BBRE about the inside of the Fountain of Victorious Finance (or something like that) being a good place for a fire survivor to hide, particularly in light of what we're learning in the new series about there being tunnels under the fountain (per Kit Snicket with a shovel in the final picture heading towards the fountain under construction, and Lemony wanting to measure how far down the fountain is being drilled).
Thus, I think one of the Baudelaire parents is alive, but, as the text says, their whereabouts are "unknown."