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Post by Dante on Jun 19, 2013 16:28:19 GMT -5
He was wrong to trust his villainous stepson fro so many years - how long had olaf been working with fernald beforehand then? Or rather, perhaps Widdershins remained in contact with Fernald after Fernald left to join Olaf's troupe? This could then lead into my idea earlier about them making a joint movement against Anwhistle Aquatics. Either one which accused Lemony of a wide variety of crimes, or one of his obituaries. I think it was possible to pin it down with more detail in the past, but I simply don't remember now. Also, this passage was cited once upon a time as evidence that Beatrice wasn't the Baudelaire mother, as "the Baudelaire parents" and "the woman I happened to love" were cited separately. The Rare Edition notes in Dastardly Documents , if you haven't seen them. They shed some light on this matter. That's quite a compelling idea, and I think you're right, it would have worked - but meeting Kit Snicket was a real wham moment, too. "(Geraldine) Julienne Star (reporter"), perhaps? This is why I think that there's another J.S. out there who we never meet - a villainous one - who accidentally received the telegram owing to the vagueness of the J.S. initials, and sent Mr. Poe to intercept the Baudelaires in the hopes that they could be prevented from reaching the Hotel Denouement. I recall that this may also account for a J.S. reference in TPP, too. |
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Post by MisterM on Jun 20, 2013 9:58:58 GMT -5
I potatoing love TPP, so I think I will do notes on it with you, Mister M. When I was 7-ish and first reading the series, I read TPP over and over again for like a month because I thought it was so rad. Id be happy to have your contribution, bandit! Feel free to post notes on chapters before me, of course! Now.....Book 12 --Chapter One-- He we are then. This is the book I’ve been most looking forward to re-reading, as it is a book I don’t know very well, yet has the most to discuss. Expect vast amount of notes for every chapter here. I have many theories here as to what happens off screen, as it were, and I’m excited to share them with you. Also this book is the book where, upon my re-read of the books last years, most of my ides for my fic came about. The plots of books 1, 2, 4 and 6 all origionate from here. This is an amazingly well written book, and inspired me to write for the first time in a long while. It really pulled me out of a pit of self loathing and depression, and I begin to craft my fic. Then I joined 667 a few weeks later, I think J And this is probably one of the best books ever written This book offers a lot of questions, probably all wrong ones, but I’m going to put my thinking cap on and try and come up with awnsers to….all of them Is this the first confirmation Beatrice was killed in a fire? I’ve not been keeping tabs and this is probably wrong, but it jumped out at me Helliquest’s art is at its best in this book too. This first picture is a beauty (I loved it as the forums banner last June), offering us so much with so little. First of all, the man holding the package. Who is the man? What is inside the package? Is he delivering it to JS, or has he received it from him? Is it being taken to the hotel? Is JS there? There seems to be something about a carnival, possibly….could it be a report on the caligiri carnival fire? Plus the words column makes me think of Geraldine Julienne… The man….im pretty sure is the taxi driver. The illustrations match, for sure. I think he is delivering the information to JS, yes, who is at the hotel. But which JS? It could be a JS who is not even there yet, or the JS we meet later….I think…hm. If the taxi driver is lemony, he could possibly be hoping to meet his brother (lemony is out of the loop at this time, I think, so could still possibly be unaware of his brothers death) at the hotel, and give him this information? The fact that Geraldine julienne could be involved in something mentions caligari carnival would fit, as she was there…. Hm, this is coming along nicely. As far as I can tell there is nothing to contradict this, I will see peoples thoughts before coming up with a fuller theory mainly as to…why didnt lemont driving the taxi if he has one? Ah…this scuppers my theory that lemony was in the second taxi with the JS’. Maybe the man isn’t the taxi driver after all, in which case none of that theory works, excpet for the contents of the file. If this is the case, then the information could be on its way to the ‘bad’ JS who appears later, or this could even be the bad JS himself, only he’s heading the wrong way J Is that clown the anxious clown? I don’t remember the Baudelaires exact orders from TWW, but this seems to fit, I think. I don’t see any reason why not. Wow, a page of notes and im not even on… the first page  Very subtle foreshadowing with lemony telling us to look at the bottom of ponds here Adroit - okay, that word confused me 'to extinguish fires, both literally and figuratively' - and there we have, if needed, ture confirmation from a member of vfd, of what vfd does. A taxi will pick up anyone who signals for one - olaf says this exact same thing later, and it is true. The whole…taxi disguise thing is something that fascinates me but annoys me because it is so underused J The opera - Dante, you know fan fiction better than me. Are there any good fics written about this? If so, I would love to read them. The song the Baudelaires father used to play….wasn’t there something significant to this? She had had a most interesting time at the opera, and never wanted to forget it - that sounds….incredibly sinister, actually. If the Baudelaire parents did kill oalfs then…..well, they certainly didn’t seem sorry about it. |
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Post by bandit on Jun 20, 2013 13:01:01 GMT -5
Chapter one: On the cover, I'm guessing the woman with the fuzzy purple coat is Geraldine Julienne, as she looks a whole lot like Rita Skeeter and other Generic Obnoxious Fictional Reporters. Also, I just realized Brett Helquist sneaked a little eye onto the top of the feather that's in her hat. This is also my favorite dedication out of all the books. "No one could extinguish my love, or your house." They become more like zingers as the series progresses. The two options for the man in the illustration, while I don't think there is really a significance to it, are either that the man is JS and he has just picked up his package or he is going to deliver it to JS. Also, that is the Anxious Clown in the background. I like how it has a drive-thru. I also like how the building behind it has a Metropolos-esque globe on the top, and I'm guessing that's supposed to be the Daily Punctilio offices. 667 is mentioned! I had never thought of it as "shiny" before. I always imagined it being dark and looming, like an old brick building. The mystery of the underground passageways never is explained. I suspect there are tunnels built all over the city connecting the homes of every VFD member, but I don't know why Esmé would be in correlation with Beatrice and Bertrand. Perhaps they were friends in the past, even though it's implied that Esmé and Olaf were always unlikable even when they were on the "good side." Kit quoting Martin Luther King. The Snicket universe is strange indeed. Kit is also pals with William Makepeace Thackerary... Is this the first confirmation Beatrice was killed in a fire? Well, Lemony has been confirming that Beatrice is dead for the entire series, if that's what you mean. I feel like Lemony mentioned Beatrice's favorite song at some point in the 13 books, but I can't be sure. [quote[She had had a most interesting time at the opera, and never wanted to forget it - that sounds….incredibly sinister, actually. If the Baudelaire parents did kill oalfs then…..well, they certainly didn’t seem sorry about it.[/quote] I had always assumed that Beatrice killed Olaf's parents as a child. Maybe she has killed many people, and poison darts are her preferred method. |
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Post by Hermes on Jun 20, 2013 15:02:23 GMT -5
The mystery of the underground passageways never is explained. I suspect there are tunnels built all over the city connecting the homes of every VFD member, but I don't know why Esmé would be in correlation with Beatrice and Bertrand. Perhaps they were friends in the past, even though it's implied that Esmé and Olaf were always unlikable even when they were on the "good side." I think the underground passage connecting the Baudelaire mansion with 667 existed before Jerome bought the penthouse = and Esme probably married him in order to gain access to it. it seems likely that before that it was a VFD headquarters - quite possibly the one where the disrupted building committee happens in TUA. In general, I take it that the passages are escape routes. What does she quote from him? I haven't spotted that one. Yes, but not in a fire. I think this is indeed the first time we are told that, and it is an important clue to who Beatrice is. Any special reason for thinking that? The opera certainly happened while V and K were already alive, and I've always supposed that's when O's parents were killed. |
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Post by bandit on Jun 20, 2013 16:54:01 GMT -5
What does she quote from him? I haven't spotted that one. "...as one of my comrades likes to say, 'To be daunted by no difficulty; to keep heart when all have lost it; to go through intrigue spotless; to forgo even ambition when the end is gained--who can say this is not greatness?' And speaking of greatness, please hold on. We can't allow a potential enemy to follow us to our important brunch." Looking back, it is obvious in Olaf's speech at the end of TPP that his parents were killed at the opera, but the word "orphan" is used to refer to a child, and since it says that Olaf became an orphan himself, I imagined the incident happening when he was younger. |
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Post by Dante on Jun 21, 2013 1:21:20 GMT -5
Looking back, it is obvious in Olaf's speech at the end of TPP that his parents were killed at the opera, but the word "orphan" is used to refer to a child, and since it says that Olaf became an orphan himself, I imagined the incident happening when he was younger. Dewey is later referred to as an "orphan" in the present day, though, so it's clear that Snicket is using it to refer to anyone whose parents have been lost in an untimely fashion, no matter what their age. |
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Post by cwm on Jun 24, 2013 13:36:27 GMT -5
Looking back, it is obvious in Olaf's speech at the end of TPP that his parents were killed at the opera, but the word "orphan" is used to refer to a child, and since it says that Olaf became an orphan himself, I imagined the incident happening when he was younger. Dewey is later referred to as an "orphan" in the present day, though, so it's clear that Snicket is using it to refer to anyone whose parents have been lost in an untimely fashion, no matter what their age. Is this a thing that's particularly common? I remember the use of "orphan" referring to somebody who lost their parents later in life striking me on the first read as unusual, as I've never heard of the term being applied to somebody who lost their parents outside of childhood. |
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Post by Hermes on Jun 24, 2013 13:51:39 GMT -5
Is this a thing that's particularly common? I remember the use of "orphan" referring to somebody who lost their parents later in life striking me on the first read as unusual, as I've never heard of the term being applied to somebody who lost their parents outside of childhood. Well, it's not as if we would often have cause to say it. When a child is an orphan, that makes an important difference to how they are brought up; when an adult is an orphan it doesn't impact their life in the same way. In ASOUE, anyway, it seems simply to mean someone who has lost their parents. Ishmael is also called an orphan, as is the Duchess, who must have been at least 18 or thereabouts when she became one. Incidentally, we don't know for sure that both of Olaf's parents were killed at the opera. If one was already dead, killing the other would 'leave him an orphan'. MOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, hi cwm! |
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Post by cwm on Jun 24, 2013 16:34:00 GMT -5
Hi Hermes. My free time is still limited due to working at my not-so-local library, so probably just another passing visit I'm afraid.
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Post by Hermes on Jun 24, 2013 16:37:01 GMT -5
Good to know you're alive, though.
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Post by MisterM on Jun 25, 2013 5:01:50 GMT -5
Chapter one: On the cover, I'm guessing the woman with the fuzzy purple coat is Geraldine Julienne, as she looks a whole lot like Rita Skeeter and other Generic Obnoxious Fictional Reporters. Also, I just realized Brett Helquist sneaked a little eye onto the top of the feather that's in her hat. I see no reason why not. And very well noticed with the eye! That is an interesting thought, yes. The Daily Punctiltio was always a palce i thought we would visit at some point in the series, which would have been interesting. Well, I don't think much epxlanation is needed. I just assumed that, in the event of fire, they could be used to escape? Well, jerome lived there before esme, i believe. The letter from Jaques in TUA asks him not to marry Esme, supposedly to protect the passageway. I believe that was the reason for their marrige, so as to allow her or olaf access to the baudelaire mansion. I also beleive this is what led to the fire... I meant the manner of her death being confirmed for the first time. That seems incredibly ruthless. Dewey is later referred to as an "orphan" in the present day, though, so it's clear that Snicket is using it to refer to anyone whose parents have been lost in an untimely fashion, no matter what their age. Is this a thing that's particularly common? I remember the use of "orphan" referring to somebody who lost their parents later in life striking me on the first read as unusual, as I've never heard of the term being applied to somebody who lost their parents outside of childhood. Its something thats been commented on before, i think. I think its just a way of (in the eight chapter especially) making the baudelaires feel less...alone. By calling dewey an orphan, it immediatly means they can relate to him more. I dont think we've ever spoken before, but hello! There is one subject later on i would appreciate your comments on (When we reach the end.) I will edit in some notes on the next chapter late. Ive been saving up so i can give all my notes chapters 4, 5, and 6 at once. Edit : And here they are. --Chapter Two-- The mirror text is hilarious fun. A previously unknown sibling - Dewey, of course. Although this reminds me of finding nemo. I cant quite remember the name, but I think its something like flo, who is simply a reflection of the same fish in the tank. Sorry for being skimpy on the details here. I always thought the hotel was green, turns out not. Can we assume Dewey set up the picnic, and is now watching? The “perpetual struggle for room and food” is T.R. Malthus, an economist apparently reputed for some degree of pessimism. - This is from my collection of other peoples notes/ im not clever enough to know that J I also have this which Hermes made at some point, tracking Kits movements TEE (and periods before and after this while the Baudelaires are with Mr Poe) - teaches at Prufrock Prep. Round about the time of TVV - is sacked from Prufrock Prep. (The letter which led to her sacking was presumably sent out along with the other letters which caused the cutting of telephone wires, etc.) After THH - visits site of Heimlich Hospital, recruits Hal. Around time of TCC - hears of Jacques' death, goes to bed. During TGG - gets up, meets Quigley Quigley contacting Kit - how did he know how to do this? Maybe he got information from Jacques, but hm…. “…it sounded as if they were being attacked in midair while flying over the sea.” - This attack seems to be either very slow or very repetitive. More on this later…. The last safe place may not be safe after all - This is my only, and I man only, problem with this book. Surely the last sage place was never safe due to the fact that….one of the managers is a villain? “I’ve scarcely looked at these maps, poems, and blueprints that Charles sent me…” - Okay…..lets think about this. At first this seems totally random, and ‘omg is Charles a ember of VFD’, but there is a way around this. I’m unsure of the exact wording later on, but we LSL helped with the construction of the hotel, and presumably some other VFD buildings. I would assume there are the blueprints. The maps and poems, however, are slightly more difficult to retcon. Maybe Charles and kit knew each other, but not as volunteers. We know some members of VFD have friends away from the organization (see Jerome), so I could see this working. I would assume he sent all these things to kit as a favour from an old friend? Maybe more on this later The other JS - I assume this is count olaf. I don’t why, that’s just what ive always thought A certain clump of seaweed - The Clusterous forest? I like to think so… “One of my comrades has volunteered to clean up after our picnic. He’s a wonderful gentleman.” - Okay, it is Dewey then J But hang on. If Dewey did set up the picnic, why isn’t he still there. In fact, why not just introduce the Baudelaires to dewy right away? It would save a lot of time and effort. In fact, this whole chapter is pretty much pointless anyway. This .line from Kit “These are dark days, as dark as a crow flying through a pitch black night.” indicates eh know hoe the sugar bowl is being delivered. Aaaah this series can annoy me sometimes. Off topic request for dante : In the original re-read you said to look at this link www.lemonysnicket.com/event/bookblast2.htmlAnd to remove the 2 to see something else also interesting. My question is, what was this, and can it be found anywhere else. Also, kind of off topic, in the original reread there is a brilliants discussion about the ending of the prisoner. I will talk about this when we reach the end, and also other stuff to do with that. I will also talk about some of my favourite tv show finales in comparison to the ending of ASOUE. |
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Post by bandit on Jun 25, 2013 17:42:58 GMT -5
Chapter two: Out of the three notable shenanigans performed in the series: a whole page of 'very's in TRR, two pages of blackness in TEE, and the reflected letters in TPP, the reflected letters is definitely my favorite. I love the Preludio/Denouement naming for the hotels. So it's confirmed that, while it was fairly obvious that Monty's home was a safe place, Curdled Cave was also used. We already know that Ike Anwhistle was a member of VFD, but aren't there multiple caves by Lake Lachrymose? Also, it seems like most VFD members were opposed to the experiments with leeches, so having a meeting place right next to them doesn't sound likely. I don't know, it just doesn't make sense to me. The "attack in midair" sounds pretty awful to me; I don't think it's other people attacking them, and that's the only thing that could make it slow or repetitive. I imagine it's either the crows from TVV following them (unlikely) or the Sinister Duo's eagles (more likely). I believe that as Kit learned of the Baudelaires' whereabouts, she contacted their respective guardians for help. The Charles & Sir and the Prufrock Prep teachers are both sent to the hotel, and they are pretty much the only real guardians still intact (Olaf, enemy; Monty, dead; Josephine, dead; Jerome, surprise appearance; VFD council, hates the Baudelaires; Widdershins, disappeared). Aside from Kit confirming Charles's allegiance to VirtuousFD later in the book, it can be implied already that the two have been conversing for a while. I don't know why Kit thinks that the J.S. mentioned in her cookie message is a Jacques impostor, especially considering that everyone we know of who is searching for the sugar bowl also is already aware that Jacques died. Vessel For Disaccharides-- damn, LS is really good at thinking up VFD initialisms. "Any code you devise, we'll be watching the skies" is a great unintended couplet. A certain clump of seaweed - The Clusterous forest? I like to think so… Stain'd by the Sea gives the aura in ATWQ that it a town on the verge of collapse, and most likely is not of any significance by the time of the Baudelaires. Also, I always assumed that the clump of seaweed would be underwater or by the water, since Widdershins is probably still somewhere out in the sea. I don't think it's pointless. Dewey probably went somewhere like his library in the pond, or another hiding place close by, but the main reason the Baudelaires can't be told about him is that he's a secret to everyone but Kit. The enemies don't know that he exists, and while he is in the shadows he can be an obstruction to the Baudelaires' progress, but he can also be an obstruction to Ernest's progress. Or any other VillainousFD member. |
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Post by Dante on Jun 30, 2013 3:57:35 GMT -5
The last safe place may not be safe after all - This is my only, and I man only, problem with this book. Surely the last sage place was never safe due to the fact that….one of the managers is a villain? I think this is probably one sign that an awful lot to do with TPP was totally changed and thrown out at some point. For instance, the BBRE implies that it wasn't even constructed until after TBB. That would be a great retrospective connection. I doubt we'll ever know for sure, and certainly I doubt it was the case when the line was first written, but it would be great to believe that now. Oops, I've no idea. Let me try and find out. ...Okay. Bookblast came after TPP and contained answers to a series of ten unseen questions which appeared to give out a bit more information about TPP but which HarperCollins probably just made up themselves. Bookblast came out before TPP and took the form of an interview with Handler in which he prevaricated at length in revealing any information about the book (the big gimmick of the promotional campaign of which was that absolutely nothing was revealed about it) but then let slip a lot at the end. Foolish of us not to have archived this material more efficiently (although you'd have thought being on LemonySnicket.com would've given it some longevity), but we're a bit more on the ball now. If you Google the Bookblast2 URL you can find some responses to it on 667 and elsewhere; if you Google the Bookblast URL you can find a copy of its contents here. |
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Post by MisterM on Jul 1, 2013 4:51:22 GMT -5
I will post notes on the next five chapters today
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Post by bandit on Jul 1, 2013 11:07:50 GMT -5
Chapter three:
As a volunteer at my library, I always found this book interesting for someone who knows the Dewey Decimal System very well. The numbers chosen for each thing are very curious, especially choosing the first floor as philosophy. 152, the grand piano's number, is for books on movement and perception, while surely it would be more apt for 786, which is for keyboards & similar instruments. Also, while the concierge desk's 175 is for the ethics of recreation, 176 is the call number for the ethics of sex and reproduction. Maybe that's the bathroom.
It always made me angry that the Baudelaires didn't just say the name of one person when they met Frank/Ernest/Dewey. Very frustrating.
I think Frank appears first, and then Ernest.
The whole part about the ringing bells just screams "Sebald code." The fact that Frank/Ernest's long paragraph of dialogue both begins and ends with the word "ring", and that he seemed disappointed when Klaus didn't respond appropriately-- when you count by tens all the way through the message it even ends perfectly on the last word. Alas, it only translates to "We can bell example assistance associates processing make guests important", unless I'm doing something wrong. It just seems like the perfect place for it.
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