The 667 Dark Avenue Re-Read 2012

[Hermes]

Jun 7, 2013 3:44:58 GMT -5 MisterM said:

‘The volunteers lost track of him a long time ago, along with Hector and the other Quagmire triplets. - This is interesting, as the other quagmire triplet’ are…with a volunteer, we can assume, unless hector is somehow separated from Isadora and Duncan, which I doubt very much.

Of course, it's only in WCBATH that we learned for sure that Hector is a volunteer. I still think it's likely that he's non-active (one of the laissez-faire faction).

And so we reach the question mark. This is my favourite element of, quite possibly thw hole series. In the books we have really no indication of what it is or what it does. My basic theory is that it is…death, in some form. However I don’t want to spoil my fic to much by going into detail. However…as for what it actually is, submarine or creature…. I think that’s better left to speculation. I do hope that in the series, however, we do not learn any more about it. I would rather (like with the contents of the sugar bowl) not know. In fact I would quite like not to even know what the bombinating beast statue does, but Im more ready to accept we will learn that.

I agree absolutely. Trying to detect everything is not in the spirit of the work. (And we are actually warned within TGG that we will never find out.)

Madam DiLustro - I believe ive heard the theory that she is Madame lulu in disguise, and I see no reason why not.

Well, if Madam DiLustro is around when L is writing this, she can't be Madam L, because she is fairly definitely dead. I have a theory that Madam DiLustro may be the Duchess, given that we have our attention drawn to her later in the book.

And the Baudelaires actually get a decent-ish sleep for once!

Ah, you've noticed that! During the old reread we kept a tally of the nights of sleep, and it was quite disturbing.

[MisterM]

Jun 7, 2013 4:50:54 GMT -5 Dante said:

I wouldn't worry about the Bombinating Beast; it doesn't have the same quality of standing in for the Unknown, and I'd say there's zero chance of it doing anything fantastic. Its purpose will be firmly

Plus Handler has a definte awnser for this, im sure.

How long did he have between the end of TSS and his appearance in TGG? I think it's only a few hours. There's really no good way of accounting for this one - actually,

Im…working on a theory for this. Its becoming increasingly large and difficult to handle, so will probably be separate from the re-read at this rate. But im excited about it.

I like to think of this as an incredibly oblique callback to TBB and Violet marrying Olaf - and indeed some of Fernald's comments on that back then. "Yes, boss, I know she's yours." I think it's a really subtle piece of foreshadowing of Fernald's identity.

Hm….id’d usprised if handler was thinking of that. I think it was just a line dropped in, not really meant to eman anything.

There's a similarly ambiguous quotation in TPP which some people argue, or argued, directed towards a particular character's death,

Okay, im interested in what this line is….

(Although I suppose that depends on your take on what happens when the Great Unknown scoops them all up.)

I don’t really have much of an idea, to be fair.

Jun 7, 2013 7:23:56 GMT -5 Hermes said:

Trying to detect everything is not in the spirit of the work. (And we are actually warned within TGG that we will never find out.)

Although in TSS Snciket frist mentions not ahvig everything solved, so we’re already prepared for that idea.

Well, if Madam DiLustro is around when L is writing this, she can't be Madam L, because she is fairly definitely dead.

Ah, I stand corrected.

I have a theory that Madam DiLustro may be the Duchess, given that we have our attention drawn to her later in the book.

I see no reason to disagree, but im interested as to why

Ah, you've noticed that! During the old reread we kept a tally of the nights of sleep, and it was quite disturbing.

I think I only noticed this BECAUSE of the old re-read.

--Chapter Six --

And now we reach my least favourite part of the book….

“…such citations have not been known to be very useful when confronted by danger, whether deep underwater, or, as the Baudelaires would eventually learn, high up in the air.” - Okay, so this is interesting. How much was the plot of the last two books changed?

Just think—if you knew about the sugar bowl and you somehow fell into Count Olaf’s clutches, there’s no telling what he’d do! - Hm. This certainly goes some way to the idea that Olaf doesn’t know what’s inside the sugar bowl. I’m starting to entertain the idea that nobody really knows what’s inside for sure, except for a select few.

The woman - I think this woman is an entirely new character, but…my theory is she is someone entirely new….

I was going to read two chapters today, but I have no time.

[Dante]

Jun 10, 2013 13:16:36 GMT -5 MisterM said:

“…such citations have not been known to be very useful when confronted by danger, whether deep underwater, or, as the Baudelaires would eventually learn, high up in the air.” - Okay, so this is interesting. How much was the plot of the last two books changed?

I remember I had a long-standing theory - and I wouldn't be surprised if, at one point, I was right - that the Hotel Denouement would be set alight, and that the SSHAMH would pick the Baudelaires up from the roof. But we also know that an early draft of TPP featured the Baudelaires returning to Olaf's house, where they would learn something that they wound up learning in the arboretum in The End. In other ways, however, we know the ending didn't change; Handler says he always knew how the last book would end, although I imagine that referred to Olaf being dead and the Baudelaires becoming guardians themselves, possibly even on an island. But there were clearly large planning shifts around this area of the series.

The woman - I think this woman is an entirely new character, but…my theory is she is someone entirely new….

I think we also get a few glimpses of her in TPP...

[Hermes]

Jun 10, 2013 13:16:36 GMT -5 MisterM said:

in TSS Snciket frist mentions not ahvig everything solved, so we’re already prepared for that idea.

I don't think I remember that - where does it come?

I have a theory that Madam DiLustro may be the Duchess, given that we have our attention drawn to her later in the book.

I see no reason to disagree, but im interested as to why

Well, nothing beyond what I said, really; our attention is drawn to the Duchess later in the story, and this is a possible reason why. It's also possible that she is the swimming woman. (Though come to think of it I have another idea about the swimming woman. But the Duchess might be the person who removed the SB.)

“…such citations have not been known to be very useful when confronted by danger, whether deep underwater, or, as the Baudelaires would eventually learn, high up in the air.” - Okay, so this is interesting. How much was the plot of the last two books changed?

I would guess that the attack by eagles, etc. was already planned, but that originally the Baudelaires were meant to be there rather than just hear of it.

[Dante]

Jun 10, 2013 14:31:48 GMT -5 Hermes said:

Jun 10, 2013 13:16:36 GMT -5 MisterM said:

in TSS Snciket frist mentions not ahvig everything solved, so we’re already prepared for that idea.

I don't think I remember that - where does it come?

I know it's mentioned around the end of Chapter One, where Snicket talks about it being his fate for some of his questions never to be answered - right after the caravan falls off the cliff, the remains of which he could never find.

[MisterM]

And is expanded upon in the thriteenth chapter - the unkown fate of TWFW, and the fridge from the headquaters.

[MisterM]

--Chapter Seven --

The lousy sequence is not only entertaining, but reminds us of the horseradish factory in lousy lane, which will become important later on….

In a few days well miss the VFD gathering - well, hardly. If I’m correct its currently…Sunday? Or is it Monday? Im unsure now. My timeline really ends at TSS… But I think violet is worrying to much now.

‘It is often difficult to admit that someone you love is not perfect, or to consider aspects of a person that are less than admirable.’ - This is one of the few moments in this book I really like. And right now, in particular….this is actually a pretty damn good thing for me to read right now.

If I were the Baudelaires, I wouldn’t really look for the sugar bowl any more. Id be to scared to come across more mycelium. But then again, the Baudelaires are braver than me.

I’m not finding much to say on this book, but its mostly self-explanatory. This book fails to inspire me, but I must say I’m enjoying it much more than I thought. I remember reading this book for the first, and being vastly disappointed it was not as good as TSS. I also read the book over the course of two days, which given my age was quite the achievement. I don’t expect that helped with my understanding of the story.

I find it hard to believe Fiona doesn’t know about the schism…

I don’t think the food sunny has prepared would be….very healthy.

--Chapter Eight--

And left behind three balloons - now, Klaus, don; be silly. They wouldn’t have left the balloons, they were clearly left there for vioelts…..
Hm.
What if the VFD balloons are code, to say VFD has taken widdershins and phil, but for good reasons?

Widdershins disappearance - I have always assumed it is to do with the woman in the grotto…is that ever stated in the books?

--Chaper Nine--

Small nitpicky error here - lemony says the Baudelaires have known olaf’s villainy since that terrible day at briny beach…however they didn’t meet him till s few weeks after that…. Unless this is lemony’s way of saying that Olaf did burn down the Baudelaires mansion?

The thumbtack incident - this is interesting, specially the timing. Was fiona’s mother still around at this point? I feel like I should come up with a theory on this but i Can’t

Okay, here is a little fic I’ve been working on to explain how olaf got to the hotel. It took several hours to come up with and write, and the editing was a nightmare. I hope you enjoy it.

WINGS By Mister M

Olaf, Esme, and Carmelita stood on the top of mount fraught, and watched the Baudelaires go down the waterfall.
Olaf saw a strange object in the sky. The man with a beard but no hair was flying back.
‘sorry Olaf’ he said ‘we forgot about you.’
He gave the three if them eagles and they flew off.
THE END

[Dante]

Jun 12, 2013 13:16:24 GMT -5 MisterM said:

In a few days well miss the VFD gathering - well, hardly. If I’m correct its currently…Sunday? Or is it Monday? Im unsure now. My timeline really ends at TSS… But I think violet is worrying to much now.

While I'm not following the reread in the sense of literally rereading the books, I think it is Sunday at this point, yes.

‘It is often difficult to admit that someone you love is not perfect, or to consider aspects of a person that are less than admirable.’ - This is one of the few moments in this book I really like. And right now, in particular….this is actually a pretty damn good thing for me to read right now.

I wondered if this was foreshadowing something about Beatrice. Given what's implied about the Baudelaire parents in TPP, then: Perhaps.

I find it hard to believe Fiona doesn’t know about the schism…

You have to remember that she's grown up in a closed environment run by her stepfather, who has strong opinions on the subject of secrets and what people should and shouldn't know.

Widdershins disappearance - I have always assumed it is to do with the woman in the grotto…is that ever stated in the books?

Not stated, I think, but implied. It seems unlikely that two different agents would have been passing through the same area at the same time on different missions, and it would be redundant to posit two when we know of one who fits the bill (that is, the swimming woman).

Small nitpicky error here - lemony says the Baudelaires have known olaf’s villainy since that terrible day at briny beach…however they didn’t meet him till s few weeks after that…. Unless this is lemony’s way of saying that Olaf did burn down the Baudelaires mansion?

It's unclear how much time passes between Chapters One and Two of TBB - not unusual for early chapters of the first half of the series - but yes, unless Olaf burnt down the mansion and it's foreshadowing, then we're looking at a bit of shorthand here.

WINGS By Mister M

Olaf, Esme, and Carmelita stood on the top of mount fraught, and watched the Baudelaires go down the waterfall.
Olaf saw a strange object in the sky. The man with a beard but no hair was flying back.
‘sorry Olaf’ he said ‘we forgot about you.’
He gave the three if them eagles and they flew off.
THE END

Ironically, that's the most plausible theory I've ever read on the subject. Although Olaf sheds a little light on his activities after the end of TSS in Chapter... Nine, I think.

[MisterM]

--Chapter Ten--

In the origonal re-read, dante, you make the claim that this is the greatest chapter in the series. It is good, yes, but there are four chapters I prefer to this and think are better : Chapters 12 and 13 of TSS, and Chapters 8 and 10 of TPP, the latter being my favourite.
But this is a very good chapter, and also shorter than I remember.

The story of fernald, I think has been discussed enough for me to really add anything new

There is no wrong side of the schism - Although, of course there is the ‘good; and ;bad’ side of the schism, this is true to a certain extent. Both sides see each other as the right side.
Although, of course somebody like fernald who has been on both sides would be more likely to think this. He would want to defend his actions by saying ;look, im not a villain because there are no true villains.’

So…I think fernald started the fire because the mediatised mycelium had escaped? If this is so…how is count Olaf involved. Maybe Olaf somehow released the fungus? Or maybe Olaf wasn’t involved, and people just..assumed he had gone over to the bad side? And then olaf found him and took him in to his troupe?

And the first reference to the poison darts! I’d like to either see / write a fic with olaf one day having to much wine after a rehearsal of a play, getting angry, and solemnly telling his troupe the whole story….

I was studying poetry with my stepfather. We used to read to one another in the Main Hall of the Queequeg. - this is one of my favourite touches. Although they didn’t get on well, widdershins and fernald did actually get on well some of the time. Of course, poetry is not really mentioned during the Baudelaires stay on the queequeg (by widdershins, anyway), and I could imagine him stopping it after fernald left. Too many memories.,

If you take me with you - I wish fernald and Fiona had come with the Baudelaires….I think book 12 would have been all the better for it. They could even have just left with kit at the end of chapter two, I just feel it would have given book 11 a neater ending.

--Chapter Eleven--

Okay, I retract this earlier statement

Jun 10, 2013 13:16:36 GMT -5 MisterM said:

And now we reach my least favourite part of the book….

THIS is my least favourite part of the book. The geography makes no sense, and I have…..no notes at all on this chapter

--Chapter Twelve--

Yay, nearly finished may’s book…..in mid June.

Destroy the fungus for good - and how exactly is violet planning to destroy it?

CC ; JS - Hm….. I feel this could easily be Justice Strauss / Jerome Squalor. I would think less Squalor, due to the connotations to esme (so Quigley would be lest trusting unless they had actually met. Of course, Both JS’ share a taxi, so this doesn’t matter). It would seem to work in terms of the story without to many difficulties, and it would go some way to explain the second taxi

Okay, I don’t know if its my current mental state, but when vioelt discovered the photograph, I just shed a tear or seven. Its an extremely poignant moment. There is something about photographs, whether of people I know or not, that fascinates me.

The Baudelaires mention mr poe taking them back to count oalfs - if the original plan hadn’t changed, might that have happened?

Fionas betrayal - until I joined 667, I simply interrupted it as her just pretending to join olaf, and the Baudelaires being idiots for being shocked.

[Dante]

Jun 17, 2013 9:59:08 GMT -5 MisterM said:

So…I think fernald started the fire because the mediatised mycelium had escaped? If this is so…how is count Olaf involved. Maybe Olaf somehow released the fungus? Or maybe Olaf wasn’t involved, and people just..assumed he had gone over to the bad side? And then olaf found him and took him in to his troupe?

I don't think there's any implication that Olaf's involved in the events at Anwhistle Aquatics, although we do later learn that Captain Widdershins was. I suspect the sequence of events, from my recollection, is that Olaf Fernald ran off to join Olaf's troupe to have fun, for some plot contrivance we can only speculate on he and Widdershins were at Anwhistle Aquatics and discovered that the Medusoid Mycelium had gotten loose, and burned the building down to contain it. This is probably the same event that destroyed Fernald's hands. I recall that he starts talking about the loss of his hands right after Fiona asks if he killed Gregor Anwhistle; I've sometimes wondered if they got into a swordfight, and Fernald lost.

If you take me with you - I wish fernald and Fiona had come with the Baudelaires….I think book 12 would have been all the better for it. They could even have just left with kit at the end of chapter two, I just feel it would have given book 11 a neater ending.

It would have been nice, I agree, but perhaps less dramatically satisfying for there to be no big twist at the book's denouement. Added to that, it'd make Fiona and Fernald seem more like members of "the team," if you like, if they're suddenly coming along with the Baudelaires from the end of one book to the start of another; suddenly upgraded to main cast status. Maybe the telegram could have directed them to a different taxi, I guess?

Destroy the fungus for good - and how exactly is violet planning to destroy it?

She said, I think - with horseradish. The implication that we must take is that wasabi doesn't do as good a job and to thoroughly and reliably eliminate all traces of the Medusoid Mycelium, they'd want horseradish. Presumably they could dump a jar of it in the helmet and shake it around.

CC ; JS - Hm….. I feel this could easily be Justice Strauss / Jerome Squalor. I would think less Squalor, due to the connotations to esme (so Quigley would be lest trusting unless they had actually met. Of course, Both JS’ share a taxi, so this doesn’t matter). It would seem to work in terms of the story without to many difficulties, and it would go some way to explain the second taxi

I suppose we must presume that Kit Snicket filled Quigley in on the activities of various J.S.s who he might want to copy in on any plans involving the Baudelaires. Although my memory of who knows what at this stage in the plot is very hazy. I suspect, however, that whoever it was intended for, the vague set of initials actually caused the telegram to be directed to someone else entirely.

The Baudelaires mention mr poe taking them back to count oalfs - if the original plan hadn’t changed, might that have happened?

Would have been a very satisfying parallel in my mind, but I'm not sure how the plot could actually effect it. Why would they go with Mr. Poe again, and why would he take them to Count Olaf's house? I suspect that that would have been later on in the book that became TPP, anyway, if they were to find some of the information that they instead found in the island arboretum.

Fionas betrayal - until I joined 667, I simply interrupted it as her just pretending to join olaf, and the Baudelaires being idiots for being shocked.

Well, she and Fernald do betray Olaf and steal the Carmelita as soon as his back is turned!

[Hermes]

Jun 17, 2013 9:59:08 GMT -5 MisterM said:

Fionas betrayal - until I joined 667, I simply interrupted it as her just pretending to join olaf, and the Baudelaires being idiots for being shocked.

thedoctororwell had a theory to that effect, which I found quite plausible. However, Kit does say that the captain forgave F and F, which implies that they had actually wronged him in some way.

[Charlie]

I have a couple of words to add:

Isn't it convenient that the telgram from Quigley goes to the "Queeqeg" and "J.S". It means that JS won't know who the other copy is being sent to, and the Bauds don't know who the other copy is being sent to. Also, JS would have to be in a stationary position with a telegram would he not (such as a house) where he was often enough for Quigley to know to send it to him. I'm not certain on how telegrams work, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume so. Also, the VerseFD in this is intended solely for Violet. How weird is that? Is Quigley expecting only Violet to be on the Queeqeg ( I doubt it). But does this suggest that JS cannot understand VerseFD? Also, is it possible that the swimming woman left the book on VerseFD out especially for the Bauds to find so that they would understand Quigley's message? Is there possibly another code in there somewhere for JS? IDK. Just some thoughts (I don't have a great memory or the book on hand, but just from memory I think this is okay).

[MisterM]

Jun 17, 2013 12:23:43 GMT -5 Dante said:

I don't think there's any implication that Olaf's involved in the events at Anwhistle Aquatics, although we do later learn that Captain Widdershins was. I suspect the sequence of events, from my recollection, is that Olaf ran off to join Olaf's troupe to have fun, for some plot contrivance we can only speculate on he and Widdershins were at Anwhistle Aquatics and discovered that the Medusoid Mycelium had gotten loose, and burned the building down to contain it. This is probably the same event that destroyed Fernald's hands. I recall that he starts talking about the loss of his hands right after Fiona asks if he killed Gregor Anwhistle; I've sometimes wondered if they got into a swordfight, and Fernald lost.

Maybe its just my interpitation of the words then, but i think that could be correct but i prefer to think of olaf being somehow involved. Also

Olaf ran off to join Olaf's troupe

made me laugh, sorry.

It would have been nice, I agree, but perhaps less dramatically satisfying for there to be no big twist at the book's denouement. Added to that, it'd make Fiona and Fernald seem more like members of "the team," if you like, if they're suddenly coming along with the Baudelaires from the end of one book to the start of another; suddenly upgraded to main cast status. Maybe the telegram could have directed them to a different taxi, I guess?

That would be a satisfying enough solution, i think, but might run the mysterious-ness of the end of this book.

Would have been a very satisfying parallel in my mind, but I'm not sure how the plot could actually effect it. Why would they go with Mr. Poe again, and why would he take them to Count Olaf's house? I suspect that that would have been later on in the book that became TPP, anyway, if they were to find some of the information that they instead found in the island arboretum.

More on this below

thedoctororwell had a theory to that effect,

And it was.....?

Charlie, i cant really think of anything to add to that, toher than good point (s)

--Chapter Thirteen--

Tumble to the earth like a sugar bowl - subtle foreshadowing there lemony.

Fernald certainly seems more like he could seriously stay with olaf in this chapter than fiona.

Just because we’re on other sides of the schism doesn’t mean we cant help one another - this is, of course something I had envisaged happening in the final book - both sides of VFD joining up to combat widespread mycelium. In a way that does happen on a much smaller scale

Count olaf knows more secrets than you ever know - Although It must be said that the Baudelaires know much more than fiona does, and they are younger. For her age, Sunny is probably the most knowledgeable person in the story in that respect.

That fungus was destroyed long ago - confirmation, then (if its needed) that the sugar bowl does not contain mycelium.

The second appearance of the ? Is amazingly chilling. It changes the whole situation, yet it really does nothing.

We don’t want to show up on their sonar - Do gaint supernatural sea creatures have sonars? So olaf thinks its some kind of submarine, I assume. Of course, that’s just his opinion…

Amnesi…you’re forgetting something - oh, very nice!

Could gum really hold glass together?

He was wrong to abandon the Queequeg, no matter what he heard from the woman who came to fetch him - The swimming woman, of course, and I believe she may have said something about the possible location of the sugar bowl (after she had seen it was not in the grotto?)

He was wrong to trust his villainous stepson fro so many years - how long had olaf been working with fernald beforehand then?

What information is the article? I have a feeling there is something to do with the Beatrice letters here, but I’m not sure what. Maybe I’m getting confused.

So…lemony knows what the GU is? Hm… that ruins a certain aspect of my fic somewhat, especially some of the flashback stuff….. Although, of course I could be misinterpreting his words…

Does violet pick up exactly the same stone? I hope so. It certainly gives the Baudelaires story a sense of coming full circle.

I think this is quite the ending…..but I wish the book ended here, and the rest of this chapter became chapter one of TPP, for two reasons. 1) I think its such a brilliant image to end on. Its not exactly exacting, but once they see the taxis maybe, there is enough tension to keep you excited for the next book without knowing who is inside 2) Ive been reading for an hour and a half J

Mr Poes approach, of course, mirrors his approach in the very first book. I’m interested in what was the original plan here…..I feel kit would not have been involved just yet. Mr Poe has the unresolved plot lines with the strange smelling flower and the royal gardens, so I think….there might have been more to him than originally intended. What if Mr Poe was planned to have worked for VFD, and he would have taken the Baudelaires to count olafs house, and they would find the information there, before could would arrive to take them to the hotel?

The Baudelaire fortune gathering dust - More on this next book

The message is signed J.S… I assume that it’s that reporter from The Daily Punctilio—Geraldine Julienne.” - Hm….Really?

Question : How did Mr Poe get the message?
Original Theory : He may still be in contact with Justice Strauss, given what is said in TPP about her inquiring to the Baudelaires whereabouts (im unsure about this), so I thought that after receiving the telegram (cc:js), and then told mr Poe about it
But that doesn’t work given what mr poe says here GAAAAAAAHHHHHHRRHAGAGAHAHHh”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TPP Notes will appear tonight!

[bandit]

I potatoing love TPP, so I think I will do notes on it with you, Mister M. When I was 7-ish and first reading the series, I read TPP over and over again for like a month because I thought it was so rad.

Edit: not as much as I love TMM though

[Anka]

Jun 19, 2013 15:27:40 GMT -5 bandit said:

I potatoing love TPP, so I think I will do notes on it with you, Mister M. When I was 7-ish and first reading the series, I read TPP over and over again for like a month because I thought it was so rad.

Edit: not as much as I love TMM though

I'm always surprised how young some people were when they first read the books.



I'm thinking about getting back to this too, but I don't know if I can get myself to read starting anywhere else than the beginning of the series and also post without reading the complete re-read thread, and I doubt that I will have time for more than one chapter in a week, or any new thoughts.