Great 667 Re-Read 2019 - The Reptile Room

[veryferociousdrama]

Start posting notes etc whenever you like.

[tonyvfd]

Chapter 1
Is that horseradish factory the same from the end? Do all locations in the story are near each other?

[Foxy]

tonyvfd : Yes and yes.


This week I put chapter numbers after items.

Personal Notes:

The sour apples must be the same as TE. (1)

Monty is so flippant about Count Olaf being torn apart by wild animals. (2)

“It will take a while to find the peaches…” What??? (3)

“He wouldn’t believe us” (about Mr. Poe) The series really paints adults to be idiots, which is too bad, but there wouldn’t be a series without this factor. (4)

The kids thought about the assistants, but still didn’t recognize the HHM (4)

Stephano calling the children “little ones” is disturbing. (5)

Why doesn’t Sunny ride in a car seat? (6)

“Then Count Olaf would be my brother-in-law.” He was maybe almost Lemony’s. (6)

“That way I’ll have time for a bottle of wine before lunch.” (7)

Where’d the sheet come from? (7)

A man who had escaped from prison in a hay stack? (11)

“The facial expressions of snakes are difficult to read.” (12)

If Count Olaf forged Gustav’s resignation letter, how did Uncle Monty not notice all the spelling mistakes? (13)

Mr. Poe’s soliloquy about games is delightful, as is his admonishment of Olaf lecturing the children about lying. Mr. Poe really does have some funny lines. (13)

Bruce also defines things. What’s up with adults defining things? (13)



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THE REPTILE ROOM



CHARACTERS:

Violet Baudelaire (1)

Klaus Baudelaire (1)

Sunny Baudelaire (1)

Baudelaire parents (mentioned) (1)

Count Olaf/Stephano

Mr. Poe (1)

Dr. Montgomery Montgomery (Uncle Monty): “…your late father’s cousin’s wife’s brother.” Receives a great deal of money from the government. (1)

Gustav (mentioned) (2): was picking wildflowers at time of death

Madame diLustro (mentioned) (3) Also mentioned in a later book. Excellent detective. Fine cook. Flies into a rage if you arrive even five minutes late.

taxi driver (3): had a new baby

Gerta (6): Little milkmaid, Zombies in the Snow

Dr. Lucafont/Hook-Handed Man (8)

Bela (11)

three men in overalls (13)

Bruce (13): director of marketing for the herpetological society



VIOLET’S INVENTION:

lockpick (11)



KLAUS’S RESEARCH:

Mamba du Mal kill strategy (9)



SUNNY’S BITING:

the Hook-Handed Man’s fake hands (13)



THE LIBRARY:

Uncle Monty’s library on reptiles



SNICKET SECRETS:

He went to a formal dinner party at Madame diLustro’s (3)



He wrote chapter 11 on his friend Bela’s yacht. (11)



REFERENCES (real and made up):

An Introduction to Large Lizards(2)

The Big Peruvian Book of Small Peruvian Snakes (3)

The Boy Who Cried Wolf (9)

The Care and Feeding of the Androgynous Cobra (2)

Little Red Riding Hood (9)

Zombies in the Snow (5)



SNICKETISMS:

the one about dramatic irony (3)

the one about regrets (4)

the one about waiting being one of life’s hardships (4)

the one about somebody being a little bit wrong or surpassingly wrong (5)

the one about profanity (7)

the one about the death of a loved one and walking up the stairs in the dark (7)

the one about being proven wrong, right? (8)

the one about fifth, sixth, and seventh wheels (8)

the one about “meanwhile, back at the ranch” (9)

the one about the boy who cried wolf (10)

the one about the two basic types of panicking (10)

the page of “ever”s (11)

the one about ignoring a ridiculous lie entirely (12)



BAUDELAIRE FAMILY HISTORY:

The children painted their toenails bright red and spilled some on the yellow chair. (3)


One night all three children had a horrible flu, and their father tried to soothe them. (5)


Four years ago, Violet’s hair was very short and she had invented a pencil sharpener. Klaus had been interested in comets. (5)


Violet would listen at her parents’ bedroom door to hear what they might be planning for her birthday. (9)


SNICKET DICTIONARY:

Add insult to injury: forcing somebody to do an unpleasant task when they’re already very upset (7)

Alcove: a very, very small nook just perfect for sitting and reading (3)

Brummagem: fake (7)

Come clean: admit that he’s really Count Olaf and up to no good (12)

Come to fruition: the Baudelaires were finally to learn of it (6)

Constant Surveillance: kept watching them so they couldn’t possibly talk to Uncle Monty alone and reveal that he was really Count Olaf. (5)

Crude: Roughly made at the last minute (11)

Dumbly: without speaking (6)

Earshot: close enough to hear him (9)

Entertaining: thinking (9)

Generic: when one is unable to think of anything else to say (6)

Hackneyed: used by so, so many writers that by the time Lemony Snicket uses it, it is a tiresome cliché (9)

Hash this out: talk about something at length until we completely understand it (6)

Inner Sanctum: filthy room in which evil plans are devised (9)

Insipid: not worth reading to someone (9)

Oblivious: not aware that Stephano was really Count Olaf and thus being in a great deal of danger (6)

Needle in a haystack: something that is difficult to find (11)

Nemesis: the worst enemy you could imagine (4)

Perpetuate his deception: lie, lie, lie (12)

Ruffians: horrible people (13)

Segue: let the conversation veer off (3)

Take the cake: more horrible things have happened to them than just about anybody (1)

Transpired: happened and made everybody sad (9)

Vanglorious: Braggy (5)

Vanity: Count Olaf thinking he’s the most incredible person who ever lived (10)



SUNNY SPEECH:

Afoop!: No (8)

Akroid!: Roger! (9)

Archo!: And the stain never really came out(3)

Bax!: I’m nervous about meeting a new relative. (1)

Brilliant!: Brilliant! (13)

Deepo! (5)

Dixnik?: (13)

Divo soom?: (6)

Doog!: (generic cry of frustration) (6)

Eojip!: I would be thrilled to bire an enormous length of rope into small, workable pieces! (2)

Fut!: I do not! (4)

Futa!: I agree! (4)

Gerja!: Well, let’s go find out what Stephano is like! (3)

Guweel!: (Not me) (12)

Hooda!: (How do you do?) (3)

Jose!: No way! (7)

Kindal!: Or maybe he’s excited about us (3)

Libo!: Good-bye

Meeka!: Good-bye, Mr. Poe. Thank you for driving us. (2)

Minda!: Don’t be ridiculous, Klaus!

No, no, no.: No (2)

Okipi!: (some kind of agreement) (9)

Roofik!: (agreement) (12)

Tadu: It’s a loathsome situation in which we find ourselves. (6)

Tikko: some kind of agreement

Tojoo: (something about agreement) (4)

Viper!: Viper! (13)

Yeet!: Good-bye (13)

Yinga (5)



GEOGRAPHY:

Hazy Harbor (1)

Tedia (1)

Lousy Lane (1)

Grim River (nine-tenths mud, contains extremely unnerving fish) (1)

horseradish factory (1)

Peru (2)

Swarthy Swamp (13)



FOODOLOGY:

Coconut Cream Cake (2)

Raw Carrot (2)

Canned peaches (3)

Stroganoff (5)

Toast (5)

Cereal (5)

Coffee (8)



THE REPTILES:

very fat toad with two wings (2)

two-headed lizard with bright yellow stripes on its belly (2)

snake with three mouths, one on top of the other (2)

snake with no mouth (2)

lizard which looked like an owl (2)

toad which looked like a church (2)

Incredibly Deadly Viper (2)

snake whose venom is so deadly your heart would stop before you knew you were bitten (3)

snake who could swallow everyone up whole (3)

pair of snakes who drive a car recklessly (3)

Alaskan Cow Lizard (3): produced delicious milk

Dissonant Toad (3): imitates human speech in a gravelly voice

Inky Newt (3): produces black dye

Irascible Python (3): grumpy and best left alone

Green Gimlet Toad (3): never to be given too much water

Virginian Wolfsnake (3): never to be let near a typewriter

Mongolian Meansnake (4): ate white mice for dinner

Hungarian Sloth Snake (5): top pace is half an inch per hour

Mamba du Mal

[Carrie E. Abelabudite]

Mar 4, 2019 7:36:03 GMT -5 Foxy said:

The sour apples must be the same as TE. (1)

I noticed that, too, but it's interesting they're described as 'sour' rather than 'bitter'. Maybe they've absorbed some of the horseradish from the factory but haven't fully undergone the hybridisation process.

Why doesn’t Sunny ride in a car seat? (6)

The configuration of the Jeep when they go see Zombies in the Snow is confusing. Violet and Klaus are described as sharing a seat, and Sunny has to sit on Stephano's lap, but later we find out the Jeep has four seats, so only one of these things needed to have happened.

General Notes

This is actually the first book in the series I read all the way through. I read the first chapter of TBB first, but I gave up on the series because I found it too scary. Until one day, when I was stuck in a hotel room with nothing to do except read my brother's copy of The Reptile Room, and I was completely gripped from the start. I was a very wimpy child who would frequently skip over passages in books where bad things happened to the characters, but by the time TRR got to that stage, I was already so invested, I couldn't put the book down. Even now, I definitely prefer it to TBB. I like that it starts slightly more upbeat, and I prefer the setting. Even though the city is more interesting than Tedia, I think Monty's house is more fun to read about than Olaf's, because of all the reptiles. The writing feels more Snicket-y here, and I also like that the Baudelaires are more active as characters. Violet just signing her name with her left hand isn't as exciting a climax as the one we're presented with here, and I like the way the second half of the story essentially becomes a murder mystery.

The Egmont and HarperCollins covers are very similar. I would say I slightly prefer the Egmont one, which focuses more on the snake, but there's not much between them. As with TBB, I prefer the Murder! cover.

This Beatrice dedication doesn't stand out to me particularly, but it still makes me smile.

Chapter One

Isn't horseradish a root that you would grow? I guess this is a horseradish sauce factory. Or maybe in the Snicketverse, horseradish is manufactured in factories. Seems about right.

The definition of 'take the cake' feels more like what I would expect from Snicket, as compared to most of the definitions in TBB, which were more literal.

'he hatched a devious plan that gives me nightmares to this day.' (p2) Sounds like Lemony is writing a long time later, though it doesn't need to be read this way. It's clear Handler hadn't really written him into the universe of the story yet.

'Violet, Klaus and Sunny still had nightmares' (p3) How long has it been since they stopped living with Olaf? Like at the beginning of TBB, I'm going to allot the Poe visit two weeks, give or take a few days. I don't think it can be longer than three weeks. But this makes it seem like it's been a long time.

'it was he who decided that the children would be placed in the care of a distant relative in the country' (p4) - where is Monty's house in relation to Tedia? I assume it's the nearest town, probably not more than a twenty-minute drive. But if it's 'in the country', that implies it's maybe more rural.

'"this new car of mine doesn't fit too many people."' (p4) That doesn't seem very practical. Why would Poe buy such a small car when he has a family?

'"I think you'll like Dr Montgomery, too," Mr Poe said. "He has travelled a great deal, so he has plenty of stories to tell. I've heard his house is filled with things he's brought from all the places he's been."' (p5) How does Poe know all this?

[veryferociousdrama]

Notes on Chapters One to Three.

So we find out that Tedia is only a short drive away from the City. Seeing as Mr. Poe has clearly misinterpreted the Baudelaire will, this probably means that Uncle Monty is the second closest to the Baudelaire mansion.

Fun genealogy facts, Uncle Monty could also be called the Baudelaires' cousin-but-once-removed's brother-in-law, the Baudelaires' cousin-but-once-removed-in-law's brother, or the Baudelaires' great-aunt/uncle's daughter-in-law's brother. If Bertrand's cousin theoretically had children, he could also be called the Baudelaires' second cousin's uncle. Also of note is that he's on Bertrand's side, while Aunt Josephine is on Beatrice's.

So Poe's got himself a new car, eh? To get that sorted out, this points at there maybe being a few weeks between this and the end of TBB. But I wonder why he's downsized so much? This is presuming he doesn't take Polly, Edgar and Albert out much.

So why does Uncle Monty get money from the government? If he gets a scientific grant, surely this would just cover the costs of his research. Either Uncle Monty considerably under spends, or it's a VFD cover-up. 

The fact that Uncle Monty turns out to be very kind is ironic given some of the other books. I wonder if the idea ever occurred to Handler to introduce a new guardian in each book, but have each worse than the previous? Could have made for interesting reading, though I doubt the series would have continued past a few books.

So Gustav "resigned" the day before, but Stephano's coming in a week. Seeing as Gustav is a film director, I suspect he's not a herpetologist , but some sort of VFD escort to Peru. So if Olaf killed Gustav, and then faked a message to Monty from another Volunteer. VFD is a big organization, especially if they are all over the world, so Monty can't know everyone. The message from somebody, say "Jacques" introducing Stephano would be sent, with Monty being none the wiser.

I find it very irresponsible of Poe to only ask Uncle Monty about child-care after he's dropped the Baudelaires off. But we know by now he's terrible at his job so...

So Monty is introducing Inky as his own recent discovery, but in TE Kit says he's been around for at least fifteen years. So is this yet another VFD cover-up? Is the real story too complicated for Monty to tell? Monty also says he's been studying snakes for forty years. Presuming he joined VFD as a teenager, that means he's at least 53. According to the Snicket Sleuth, Beatrice was 38 when she died, so that probably means he was in the VFD generation before the Snickets.

Who is Madame diLustrio? Is she a Volunteer?

So, the nightly trips to the cinema. Are they purely recreational, or are they all sending VFD messages around, like Zombies in the Snow? This may have stopped as the amount of Volunteers dwindled.

So if Lemony is the taxi driver in TWW and TPP, is he the one here? The Netflix series indicates he is reporting on the Baudelaires for different reasons, but book-wise, maybe he's guilty as he didn't recognise Olaf himself, and is the reason Monty died?

[Foxy]

Mar 4, 2019 14:24:43 GMT -5 veryferociousdrama said:

So Poe's got himself a new car, eh? To get that sorted out, this points at there maybe being a few weeks between this and the end of TBB. But I wonder why he's downsized so much? This is presuming he doesn't take Polly, Edgar and Albert out much.

[...]

So Monty is introducing Inky as his own recent discovery, but in TE Kit says he's been around for at least fifteen years. So is this yet another VFD cover-up? Is the real story too complicated for Monty to tell? Monty also says he's been studying snakes for forty years. Presuming he joined VFD as a teenager, that means he's at least 53. According to the Snicket Sleuth, Beatrice was 38 when she died, so that probably means he was in the VFD generation before the Snickets.

[...]

Who is Madame diLustrio? Is she a Volunteer?

[...]

So if Lemony is the taxi driver in TWW and TPP, is he the one here? The Netflix series indicates he is reporting on the Baudelaires for different reasons, but book-wise, maybe he's guilty as he didn't recognise Olaf himself, and is the reason Monty died?

I'm sure the salesman talked Mr. Poe into that car even though it probably didn't fit with what type of car he actually needed.

The Viper mystery is one I can't figure out.  Dante ?

Madame di Lustro is a disguised woman, according to Snicket in TE.  So, because she is in diguise, I would guess she is indeed a volunteer.

I don't think Snicket is the taxi driver here or in TWW.  I think he definitely would have recognized Count Olaf, no matter what disguise he was wearing.

Also, I just wanted to say thank you for setting up this reread.  I sometimes looked at old posts from previous rereads, and was disappointed I wasn't on here to be a part of them.  This is fun.

[Dante]

The terms used to describe the TPP taxi driver are identical to those used to describe the TWW taxi driver. The TRR taxi driver isn't described.

I don't recall Kit mentioning Ink's history in The End, but there is a passage in ASoUE, i.e. the castaway journal, by the Baudelaire parents which reads "Inky has learned to lasso sheep" (p. 209); as we later learn, their stay on the island concluded while Beatrice was pregnant with Violet, indicating that "Inky" was indeed present at least fifteen years ago. But is Inky the Incredibly Deadly Viper, who is nicknamed "Ink" elsewhere in the novel? Possibly; but it's equally possible that Inky is some human individual, or another animal mascot such as (an excellent suggestion made to me by Antenora) an octopus. What I do think is that the island is a location whose history is important to V.F.D. and therefore incredibly secret; I think it's very plausible that the Incredibly Deadly Viper has been known of by various individuals without being formally known to science before this point; I think it's fair to propose that the Baudelaire parents communicated the existence of a rare snake of herpetologically interesting properties to Monty, and that he subsequently spent a long time tracking it down. In short, I don't think it's hard to come up with ways of bridging the gap across this apparent plot hole.

As a side-note, I really wouldn't worry about character ages; they're absolutely unprovable except for the rare few examples where they're openly stated (i.e. just Violet and Klaus).

[veryferociousdrama]

Foxy: For some mad reason, I believe Madame diLustrio to be connected to Olivia. Maybe the possible N Caliban? Hmm, the taxi driver is an interesting one. The other two times random taxi drivers are described as TWW and TPP are connected to Lemony; however, if it's not Lemony, is it another Volunteer? The showing the photo of a baby sounds like he is, so it's probably just one who doesn't recognise Olaf. You're welcome, I felt the same, and thought it'd be a nice thing to do after a few years.

@dante: Oh, that's what it was! Sorry, must have got Inky muddled with something else. 

[Carrie E. Abelabudite]

Mar 4, 2019 14:24:43 GMT -5 veryferociousdrama said:

Seeing as Gustav is a film director, I suspect he's not a herpetologist , but some sort of VFD escort to Peru. 

I was thinking this as well. 

So, the nightly trips to the cinema. Are they purely recreational, or are they all sending VFD messages around, like Zombies in the Snow?

I thought they might all be Sebald films, but it's hard to say for sure.

Mar 4, 2019 15:21:23 GMT -5 Foxy said:

Also, I just wanted to say thank you for setting up this reread.  I sometimes looked at old posts from previous rereads, and was disappointed I wasn't on here to be a part of them.  This is fun.

I want to second this! I've really enjoyed the reread so far.

Chapter Two

Love the illustration of the cake.

Even Uncle Monty, who's very sympathetic in most ways, condescends to the children by explaining words to them. It could also be argued that Lemony does the same thing, but I'd say his explanations are more mocking the ones given by other adults than anything else.

'"In ten days we leave for Peru,"' (p14/15) Helpful for timeline purposes. Now we know how long it is before Poe comes back. Also, is Monty really planning to take them to Peru? I like the Snicket Sleuth's theory, that he is about to get them started on their VFD training by whisking them off on the Prospero.

'"[Stephano] won't arrive for a week or so.'" (p15) Also helpful for working out a timeline. Would Olaf really have had time to go the the Hinterlands, find out from Olivia where the Bauds would be (how would Olivia even have found out? The Daily Punctilio?), kill Gustav and plan his arrival? This isn't anywhere near as problematic as the time scale of some of Olaf's later schemes, however. The idea (again from the Sleuth's theory) that Monty was always going to hire someone to look after the reptiles when he was gone, and then decided to invite Stephano on the expedition after Gustav 'quit', seems to work here. 

If they aren't really planning on going to Peru, it does seem odd that Monty would set the children tasks the way he does, but maybe he wanted to test their skills before their training began in earnest. Or maybe they are going, and the Baudelaires will be working as his apprentices.

'"Remember, it is just a short drive here from the city,"' (p18) - so why will it take Poe a week to come back? Also, how far away from the city is Monty's house? An hour and a half's drive, maybe? 

Does Violet really think Monty thinks one of them is called Bambini?

The most natural reading of Monty's speech about Count Olaf implies he's never met him before, but it doesn't rule out the idea that they know each other - or at least know of each other - either.

'The Baudelaire orphans had just been living with Count Olaf, who had made them chop wood and clean up after his drunken guests,' (p 24) - but Monty's assigning them chores, too.  Sure, they align more with their interests, but he's still making them do things he probably should be doing himself.

Chapter Three

Madame diLustro is probably the most interesting out of the friends Lemony describes having early on in the series. More on her when we get to TGG.

How old is Monty? ATWQ implies he's around the same age as Lemony, but here it says he's been studying snakes for forty years. Maybe he's just been studying them since he was a baby.

I love the explanation of dramatic irony, and the way Handler deconstructs the trope.

Most of the definitions so far have been more humorous, but 'alcove' is more exact. I guess it could be argued that with his penchant for defining words, Lemony is attempting to deconstruct and demystify the adult world for children.

Sunny's biting feels more idiosyncratic here - in TBB, she comes across more as a normal, teething baby.

'"Please work very hard today"' (p37) It feels kind of sinister for Monty to be relying on the children's work like this, almost exploitative.

I love all the pre-fire memories described throughout the series.

''Not everybody wants to hear about your new baby, you know"' (p40-41) Having a baby photo to show the customer pegs the taxi driver as a VFD member. While I'm fine with thinking that the taxi driver that takes the Bauds to Josephine's is Lemony, having him drop Olaf off at Monty's, where presumably he should know the children are staying, would tip him from being morally ambiguous to straight-up bad. What motive could he have to do this? Aside from presumably wanting to protect the Baudelaires, ATWQ makes it seem like he's friends with Monty. One would assume, then, that the driver is on Olaf's side of the schism, but Olaf doesn't seem to recognise the disguise, so who knows.

'There on his ankle was something that was most familiar of all.' (p41) - I'd forgotten Olaf didn't even bother to hide the tattoo at first. Of course, knowing about VFD, this makes more sense, since Monty would expect Stephano to be a member. 

[veryferociousdrama]

Notes on Chapters Four to Five.

OK, so it indicates here that Klaus survived post TE. Unless Beatrice II, who somehow retained all information of the Baudelaires, remembers Klaus saying that?

I don't really like criticizing books, especially ones I like, but Olaf's threat sounds like one that couldn't be carried out. Monty would clearly notice Sunny having a toe missing, and would call the police for bodily harm, and they may notice it was Olaf.

So Sunny is less than 4. I think we all knew this, but it's just occurred to me her age is never given.

So if my theory is correct from yesterday RE Stephano supposedly being from VFD, then there's a chance Uncle Monty, instead of thinking him an imposter from the Herpatological Society, was somebody from the evil side of VFD, and the whole thing would be a cover-up. But that leaves the question of why Monty doesn't just tell them...

OK, so here's my theory on what's really going on. Beatrice and Bertrand, when leaving the Island, took Inky, who was the result of some form of schism between Volunteers, and gave him to Monty. Monty and Gustav were planning to take the Baudelaires to Peru, and whilst there they would be recruited into VFD. Monty believes Stephano to be a Villain, and something to do with Inky. By leaving Stephano behind, Monty would either call the police or another Volunteer, who would remove him.

What would Olaf have done if the lamp had dropped on one of the Baudelaires? May have been a tricky situation to explain.

And also, what was Olaf's plan? Murder Uncle Monty in Peru, hold the Baudelaires captive there, and somehow contact Poe and withdraw the fortune? This would be risky, as it would result in giving him up his location.

Although Klaus regretted yelling for the taxi driver, he should regret something else more. If he hadn't told Olaf that Monty had ripped up the ticket, Monty may have survived.

[takatoguil]

Mar 5, 2019 12:43:08 GMT -5 Carrie E. Abelabudite said:

'The Baudelaire orphans had just been living with Count Olaf, who had made them chop wood and clean up after his drunken guests,' (p 24) - but Monty's assigning them chores, too.  Sure, they align more with their interests, but he's still making them do things he probably should be doing himself.

I find this perspective rather baffling. Count Olaf did not provide the children with the bare minimum you would expect a guardian to - they had to share a bed! In addition, they were expected to do a variety of exhausting chores and restore Count Olaf's dilapidated mansion from scratch. The latter is the sort of job for a professional cleaning service, not three children.

In contrast, Uncle Monty provided the children with an excellent home and assigned them rather more age-appropriate chores with plenty of recreational pursuits for them as well. While the whole "whisk the kids away to Peru so they could be indoctrinated into child soldiers for a secret organization populated by a variety of criminals instead of putting them in the local school system or at least hiring local tutors without hidden agendas" thing suggests he's not really a good guardian either, it's not the chores that are the problem so much as the sheer workload and failure of Olaf to live up to his own responsibilities as a guardian.

[Foxy]

Carrie E. Abelabudite : I love the cake drawing, too! Helquist's illustration impacted all my cake drawings from sixth grade on.
It's a pretty common theme in the books for all the adults to explain words, which might explain why Uncle Monty is explaining words to the children.
I think Mr. Poe was probably too busy at the bank to come back to Uncle Monty's. His priorities are not always quite right.
ATWQ book 1 hints Monty is a contemporary of Lemony and Hector, and I thought Olaf was in school at that time as well, so theoretically they should know each other.
I don't think it's wrong to give children chores, so long as they are developmentally appropriate. In fact, I think it is very important for children to help around the house and be part of the family unit, like what takatoguil is saying.

veryferociousdrama : Monty might not have wanted to tell the children about V.F.D. just like their parents didn't want to tell them about V.F.D. Maybe he wanted to respect the parents wishes?

[Carrie E. Abelabudite]

Mar 5, 2019 15:24:19 GMT -5 veryferociousdrama said:

OK, so it indicates here that Klaus survived post TE. Unless Beatrice II, who somehow retained all information of the Baudelaires, remembers Klaus saying that?

I'd use this as evidence that he survived the Beatrice sinking, but I guess it doesn't necessarily need to mean that.

And also, what was Olaf's plan? Murder Uncle Monty in Peru, hold the Baudelaires captive there, and somehow contact Poe and withdraw the fortune? This would be risky, as it would result in giving him up his location.

I was thinking maybe he would stage another performance of The Marvellous Marriage, then somehow get Poe to wire the money to him, possibly posing as Monty. It's hard to say, though. All he says is that crimes are harder to trace in Peru.

Although Klaus regretted yelling for the taxi driver, he should regret something else more. If he hadn't told Olaf that Monty had ripped up the ticket, Monty may have survived.

Yeah, it's really not his shining moment as a character.

Mar 5, 2019 20:58:18 GMT -5 takatoguil said:

I find this perspective rather baffling. Count Olaf did not provide the children with the bare minimum you would expect a guardian to - they had to share a bed! In addition, they were expected to do a variety of exhausting chores and restore Count Olaf's dilapidated mansion from scratch. The latter is the sort of job for a professional cleaning service, not three children.

In contrast, Uncle Monty provided the children with an excellent home and assigned them rather more age-appropriate chores with plenty of recreational pursuits for them as well. While the whole "whisk the kids away to Peru so they could be indoctrinated into child soldiers for a secret organization populated by a variety of criminals instead of putting them in the local school system or at least hiring local tutors without hidden agendas" thing suggests he's not really a good guardian either, it's not the chores that are the problem so much as the sheer workload and failure of Olaf to live up to his own responsibilities as a guardian.

Oh, I definitely agree Olaf was a terrible guardian, and Monty was a much better one, for all the reasons you mentioned. More than anything else, I found the passage I quoted sort of funny because it started with Monty telling the Baudelaires what jobs they would have to do each day, then the children think about how great this will be, as compared to living with Olaf where they had to do... other chores! To be sure, the work they had to do for Olaf was much more arduous, and that's barely even scratching the surface of bad things that happened to them while they were living there, but those things aren't brought up in this part of the book.    

Mar 6, 2019 8:02:50 GMT -5 Foxy said:

I don't think it's wrong to give children chores, so long as they are developmentally appropriate. In fact, I think it is very important for children to help around the house and be part of the family unit, like what takatoguil is saying.

Yeah, I agree as a general rule, but on this particular reread, I found it to be somewhat jarring the way Monty makes the children complete preparations for his expedition, in a way I hadn't really noticed before. 

Chapter Four

'For years after this moment in the lives of the Baudelaire orphans, Klaus thought of the time when he and his siblings realized that Stephano was actually Count Olaf,' (p41) - proof that at least some passages were written years after the fact, which doesn't mean that some weren't written closer to the time of the events (I tend to believe the 'multiple editions' theory). 

Olaf is still much more threatening here than he becomes in the later books.

The way the Baudelaires stand up to Olaf, then run off to the Reptile Room and sort of break down, seems a bit like Lemony's 'get scared later' philosophy.

Odd that the Bauds first thought isn't to tell Monty of Stephano's identity, even though they're sure he'll believe them (except Klaus, who thinks Monty and Olaf might be in cahoots).

'It is hard enough to wait for chocolate cream pie while burnt roast beef is still on your plate.' (p55) I love this image.

'"Klaus," Uncle Monty said, his eyebrows rising in surprise, "it's not polite to interrupt with your uncle is talking."' (p59) Like other adults, Monty is too wrapped up in his own interests to listen to the children.

'so intent was he on remembering whatever he was babbling about wasp repellent.' (p60) Seems like Lemony is criticising Monty here.

Chapter Five

'Stephano was holding a knife under the table, rubbing the blade gently against Violet's knee for the entire meal.' (p63) Yikes.

Did Olaf just not sleep the whole night? You'd think he'd want to stay sharp so he could better carry out his schemes.

'Leaving their dirty breakfast dishes behind, which is not a good thing to do in general but perfectly acceptable in the face of an emergency,' (p68) Already we're seeing the idea that the 'right' thing to do isn't always black-and-white.

'"I don't mean to be vainglorious," Uncle Monty began, using a word which here means "braggy"' (p69) This continues the idea that Lemony is deconstructing the adult world.

'"When I was getting my herpetology degree,"' (p69) So Monty has a degree, implying he didn't exclusively study at VFD schools. Or maybe VFD are capable of handing out degrees. It would be funny if his roommate who tried to steal his specimen turned out to be a member of the 'villainous' side of the schism.

Of course, Monty is right - Olaf is trying to steal the snakes. Does he see through the disguise then? Maybe he's only lying to the children about thinking he's a spy from the Herpetological Society because he knows they don't know about VFD yet, and maybe he isn't sure they've seen through the disguise (the idea that Monty has seen through the disguise is also part of the Snicket Sleuth's theory)

Did Olaf actually intend to kill Monty with the lamp? I rather think not; I think his original plan would have been to kill Monty once they got to Peru, and here he's just trying to scare the Baudelaires into keeping their mouths shut about his true identity.

[Joe Villazoa]

I will start by saying that this great re-read very inconveniently started at around the time i was doing my own personal re-read (currently on book the twelfth), so as you can imagine I was very hesitant to actually participate in this but in the end my love for Snicket outweighed my common sense. So here is my slightly delayed analysis of chapters 1-2.

The book cover by Helquist on this one is one of my preferred illustrations of his, although it is a little eery to see the IDV with such large fangs.
Chapter 1:

• As was previously mentioned by others, it is interesting to note the difference between the sour and bitter apples of Lousy Lane, I find it quite interesting that Handler managed to incorporate this slight characterization of Lousy Lane into a pretty significant plot point of the later books where the plot is really expanded.
• I wonder why Snicket maintained such a focus on Count Olaf's shiny eyes, they were never one of the defining characteristics of his disguise like the one eyebrow or tattoo and yet they get almost as much mention if not more, and always seem to be the feature by which the Baudelaires recognize Olaf.
• I cannot fathom how Mr. Poe could be a family friend of the Baudelaires, I just cannot imagine any kind of conversation they could have with him, or any common interests, it has always seemed to me that he was just more of an acquaintance.
• The size of Mr. Poe's car is a large inconsistency in this book, saying that this book barely fits the kids seems to imply it has only 3 passenger seats, and yet then couldn't the baudelaires just carry their suitcases on top of them, from what we are told in the Bad Beginning they dont have much to begin with so it doesn't seem like too big of a problem. I digress and will leave that for later as I realize it is just a convenient plot point for Poe Ex Machina.
• I love the introduction of Monty, the way Handler has him start off by repeating Count Olaf's first lines but then appear as a big red faced and cheerful man really is a wonderful bit of juxtaposition with Olaf.

Chapter 2:

• Because it comes from one of their "good" guardians and is probably associated with better memories the Baudelaries dont show any indication of being squeamish at eating coconut cream cake later in book the eleventh as they do with other foods like parsley soda, corn and olives which they associate with worse memories and see at different times, though I'm getting ahead of myself.
• Uncle Monty is so delightful a guardian that its sad to know what happens to him, he's definitely my top guardian for the Baudelaires and a much needed change from Olaf who was probably at his worst in the Bad Beginning.
• I wonder if the schism reached Peru all the way from the magical realm of the Snicket Verse, the trip is presented as an escape from Olaf and treachery, but as is later revealed the schism appears to be a massive event and I do wonder whether it did like in the show have people on both sides of VFD in Peru still schisming about.
• It is odd that Uncle Monty who is a member of VFD doesn't suspect a thing from the disappearance of Gustav, you would think he would be on the edge of his seat knowing that the Baudelaire house was recently burnt down, I also wonder whether Monty would have ever revealed the secrets of VFD to the children.
• "Oh that's right Mr. Poe told me... Count Olaf sounds like an awful person." It is again odd that Monty pretends to not know anything about Count Olaf or the Baudelaire situation, although I'm obviously reading too far in to this as Handler hadn't planned out the VFD plot line at this point, but looking back at this with hindsight I cant help but feel a little weirded out by Monty's nonchalant attitude towards Olaf when he knew the dangers he posed.
• Uncle Monty does have somewhat of a twisted sense of humour, as he finds funny the idea of all his fellow herpetologists believing themselves to be in mortal danger, although that is part of the appeal of Monty's character, and I cant help but think that the prank would have been hysterical.

[Dante]

Mar 6, 2019 19:43:03 GMT -5 Joe Villazoa said:

• I wonder why Snicket maintained such a focus on Count Olaf's shiny eyes, they were never one of the defining characteristics of his disguise like the one eyebrow or tattoo and yet they get almost as much mention if not more, and always seem to be the feature by which the Baudelaires recognize Olaf.

I would imagine because "shiny eyes" is really more a description of an expression rather than an objective feature like a monobrow or a tattoo; quite frankly, it's the sort of description you hear a lot in books but I have absolutely no idea what it would really look like. My interpretation is that the Baudelaires don't need to see a monobrow or a tattoo to recognise Olaf; they recognise him from his face, his manner, which remain consistent no matter how superficially he disguises his appearance and voice.