The Great Unknown Theory 2.0 - I was partly wrong.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

On May 24, I was eating an octopus at a themed seafood restaurant. All the waiters were wearing clothes by character, and I felt surrounded by an atmosphere of ASOUE. That's when I paid attention to the octopus suction cups on my plate. Then I had a revelation about the Great Unknown. Because of this revelation, I had to read again the texts that Dante suggested to me, I had to consult a marine biologist, a mechanical engineer, and Laerte. Laerte is an English expert, who knew nothing about ASOUE, so his opinion was completely neutral. And after these considerations I came to the conclusion that I was wrong about the Great Unknown, at least in part. Needless to say, Dante was right, perhaps more certain than he himself admits.



So ... There's a big difference between believing The Great Unknown is a submarine in 2007 and continuing to believe The Great Unknown is a submarine in 2019. The difference is the ATWQ series of books. As Dante explained in a post, ATWQ explains that there is a gigantic marine animal in the form of a question mark, which moves at high speeds, and is able to be controlled by sounds. So a person who continues to believe in 2019 that The Great Unknown is a submarine is consequently a person who believes there is this gigantic animal in the form of question mark, AND ALSO there is a submarine that was built in the form of a gigantic question mark. That is, whoever believes that the Great Unknowing is a submarine, do not fail to believe that there is also a gigantic question-mark animal in the oceans of the universe of ASOUE. And when I thought better of it, I realized that I have no real reason to disagree with it. In fact, it was I who created the theory called "Daniel Handler duplicates events to confuse you". So, from my lunch at the seafood restaurant, I came to believe that Daniel Handler doubled the Great Unknown to confuse us. And this is not just a non-canonical hypothesis. In fact, the Carmelita submarine explains everything.

The first correct question is: Who built the Carmelita submarine?

The second right question is: Why does the Carmelita submarine have no torpedoes?

The third right question is: Why the submarine Carmelita has the shape of a giant octopus?

The fourth correct question is: What did the sailors of the universe of ASOUE look at in the oceans in the shape of a question mark?

But before answering these questions, I need to confirm to explain what I have found about sonars and echolocation systems used by some animals. I believed that when Olaf spoke about the sonar that the huge question-mark entity possessed, he might be talking about a biosonar. But I was wrong. The functioning mechanism of the echolocation of some animals consists of the following: the animal emits a sound, the sound is reflected by the objects, then the animal hears the reflected sound. Even if the object in question does not emit any sound, it will be detected, for what the animal hears is the echo of the sound that it produced. On the other hand, there are artificial sonars of two types. One of them works using the same operating principle as the echolocation system. The other type works by listening for the sound produced by the objects that are detected.

The wikipedia explains thus:

"Two types of technology share the name" sonar ": passive sonar is essentially listening for the sound made by vessels, active sonar is emitting pulses of sounds and listening for echoes."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonar

Fiona explained which of the two types was the Sonar used at the time in the universe of ASOUE:

"We can tell if any other undersea craft are approaching us by detecting the sounds they make." TGG, chapter 4.

Olaf also did the favor of explaining the kind of sonar that he believed existed in the giant question mark format thing:

"I guess you'd better come with me," the count said wearily. "But no tap-dancing! We don't want to show up on their sonar!" (TGG capítulo 13)

Thus, Olaf certainly believed that the sound produced by the tap dance could cause the Queequeg or the Carmelita to be detected in their sonar. This means that Olaf was talking about a submarine with passive sonar, not a biosonar.



So who could have built that submarine in the form of a giant question mark? Certainly it was the same organization that built the sub in the form of giant octopus. In fact, when you come to that conclusion everything starts to make sense. There is an evil organization that is an enemy of both the firefighting side of the Schism and the incendiary side of Schism.

This evil organization has the habit of building submarines in the form of marine beasts. But the most interesting thing is to understand why this organization had this custom.

And to understand this you just have to understand why the Carmelita did not have torpedoes.

And the answer to that question is so cool ... I do not know if I was the first to realize it ... And if I went, I feel really proud of myself.

The answer is that there are no more firearms in the universe of ASOUE, or at least there are no more firearms in the region where the main story takes place.

But the firearms already existed, and were known. In the play "La Fuerza Del Destino" was portrayed a firearm. But at time during the ASOUE events or during ATWQ events,no character is described carrying firearms, not even by villains. I'd rather believe that at some point VFD, by fighting against fire, managed to eliminate the technology of building firearms. So the villainous organization that built submarines of war, needed other mechanisms to destroy other submarines and ships, and even airplanes. Olaf explained how the Carmelita worked in this respect:

"This submarine is one of the greatest things I've ever stolen," he bragged. "It has everything I'll need to defeat V.F.D. once and for all. It has a sonar system, so I can rid the seas of V.F.D. submarines. It has an enormous flyswatter, so I can rid the skies of V.F.D. planes. It has a lifetime supply of matches, so I can rid the world of V.F.D. headquarters. It has several cases of wine that I plan to drink up myself, and a closet full of very stylish outfits for my girlfriend. And best of all, it has plenty of opportunities for children to do hard labor!” – TGG chapter 9.

The way the Carmelita attacked the Queequeg, using the tentacles, shows that the submarine was octopus shaped for functional reasons: in addition to allowing navigation, the tantacles were designed to be used as weapons.

But note the detail: Olaf had to steal the Carmelita. Did he steal from VFD? I think not. One reason is this excerpt from Chapter 9:

. "I'm going to lock all of you in the brig, which is the official seafaring term for Jail." "We know what the brig is," Klaus said. "Then you know it's not a very pleasant place," the villain said. "The previous owner used it to hold traitors captive, and I see no reason to break with tradition."

The idea I have about this dialogue is that the owner already owned a place intended for traitors ... As if that was already part of the submarine's design. It is unlikely that you will create a submarine already thinking there will be several uprisings in the crew, and already create a place to arrest those who revolt if the organization that you are part of is formed by volunteers. However, if your crew is made up of slave laborers, this is more likely. If you stop to think about the means of Carmelita propulsion, you will realize that it was designed to be moved to human labor. In fact, the whole scenario of children being rowing to move the submarine, is very reminiscent of a type of real vessel, called Galley. The wiki explains:



"A galley is a type of ship that is propelled mainly by rowing. The galley is characterized by its long, slender hull, shallow draft and low freeboard (clearance between sea and railing). Virtually all types of galleys had sails that could be used in favorable winds, but human strength was always the primary method of propulsion. Galleys were the warships used by the early Mediterranean naval powers, including the Greeks, Phoenicians and Romans.... It was only in the early 16th century that the modern idea of the galley slave became commonplace. Galley fleets as well as the size of individual vessels increase in size, which required more rowers. ... All major Mediterranean powers sentenced criminals to galley service, but initially only in time of war."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galley



If you've already watched Ben Hur you must remember his scene in a Galley. Well then, the Carmelita was built like a Galley. VFD would not do that. Queequeg's propulsion does not require a large crew, only one captain and two crew members. Did the Carmelita come from the incendiary side of Schism? No. Olaf would not need to steal the Carmelita from the incendiary side. The Netiflix Series left those details aside. They showed that the Carmelita came from members of the incendiary side of Schism, but for this they needed to change the original story. In the books, the Carmelita was stolen by Olaf. He can only have stolen from another organization.

And then things get more interesting.

We come to realize that there is a relationship of cause and effect: Why was an entity in the form of a gigantic question mark chasing after the Carmelita? And why was Olaf so afraid of this entity? And why was Windershins so afraid? The answer is as follows: Olaf stole the Carmelita from a maligian organization, which builds war submachines and uses slave laborers. This organization sent an even larger submarine than the Carmelita, to be able to capture the Carmelita back. This even larger submarine had been built in the shape of a legendary monster: Bombinating Beast.

This explains this passage from Chapter 4 of TGG:

"What was that third shape?" Violet asked. The captain shook his head again. "Something very bad," he said. "Even worse than Olaf, probably. I told you Baudelaires that there is evil you can not even imagine."



The organization that controlled that submarine was a common enemy of Olaf and VFD.



And now is the time for me to refer to another movie. The Bugs Life, 1998. (In the Bugs Life, you should remember that the ants have built a mechanical device to simulate a bird. The mechanical passer should cut down the locusts. This bird had used several ant-children as a means of propulsion and control. In a way, this is very reminiscent of the Carmelita. But in The Bugs Life, the real bird arrives and kills the villain at the end. It was something that would happen at the hotel.

I still believe that within the sugar bowl there is a whistle capable of controlling the true beast. I still believe that Beatrice summoned the real beast shortly after picking up the sugar bowl, and who came to control it.

This explains why Windershins first feared the entity in the form of interrogation. He said it was probably worse than Olaf. The word "probably" indicates that he had doubts, whether it was the real beast, or whether it was the evil organization's submarine. If it was the submarine, it would really be worse than Olaf. But the beast was just an animal. Although it was mortal, the animal was not worse than Olaf. After the destruction of the Queequeg, Windershins bet that the question mark was the animal being controlled, and therefore went to meet the animal. And one of Quaqumire said the name "Violet", showing that they were right: Someone like Violet was in the beast's mouth. But if it was the submarine, they would be dead. The certainty of Windershins came from the fact that he had already been taken by the woman who owned the sugar bowl. She invoked the Great Unknown. And by the way, Lemony called this animal that way, because it came across him in his teens. The sailors had seen from time to time the gigantic question mark, because it was actually a submarine created to resemble a legendary monster. Hector went to investigate one of these submarine appearances in the ocean using his balloon. Ah, another interesting detail: by creating submarines in the form of animals, the evil organization made sailors not even suspect the existence of submarines. They thought they were giant animals.

But the right question is: has the animal known as Bombinating Beast been around for a long time, or was it a hangfire creation? Because the statuette that imitates the sound of the Bombinating Beast has been around for a long time, we can conclude that it had existed for a long time. However, Hangfire picked up a rare animal that already existed, and made experiments so that it would get much bigger and much more frightening. The original animal was supposed to be the size of a manatee, so many of Moxie's ancestors did not believe that their ancestor had actually killed a monster, just a manatee. In the same way that legends of giant octopuses arose, there were legends of the giant Bombinating Beast. These legends inspired the evil organization to create its submarines, and inspired Hangfire to come up with a scientific method to increase the size and ferocity of the true Bombinating Beast.

So that's all.

[Foxy]

First of all, I love your opening paragraph. It is like you are in ASOUEland.

Second of all, your conclusion about firearms in ASOUEland is something I never realized, and that is a very clever deduction.

Third of all, nice research on sonar!

I like the idea of there being both a mechanical and a biological GU.

[Dante]

Ingenious as always, Jean Lucio. I will unbend so far as to say that, if there has to be a firm canon answer to the nature of the Great Unknown, or the TGG question mark, I could live with two completely different answers simultaneously; it retains some of the sense of mystery and ambiguity.

May 27, 2019 6:54:45 GMT -5 Optimism is my Phil-osophy said:

Thus, Olaf certainly believed that the sound produced by the tap dance could cause the Queequeg or the Carmelita to be detected in their sonar. This means that Olaf was talking about a submarine with passive sonar, not a biosonar.

You make the assumption that sonar works the same way in the Averse as it does in reality; that Olaf correctly understands how sonar works; that Olaf understands what the TGG question mark is; that Handler correctly understands how sonar works. None of those are guarantees. This isn't a true counter-argument, because I'm not interested in making one; merely points to bear in mind.

The answer is that there are no more firearms in the universe of ASOUE, or at least there are no more firearms in the region where the main story takes place.

But the firearms already existed, and were known. In the play "La Fuerza Del Destino" was portrayed a firearm. But at time during the ASOUE events or during ATWQ events,no character is described carrying firearms, not even by villains. I'd rather believe that at some point VFD, by fighting against fire, managed to eliminate the technology of building firearms. So the villainous organization that built submarines of war, needed other mechanisms to destroy other submarines and ships, and even airplanes.

Some, of course, would say that this was an authorial decision intended to maintain a degree of distance from real-world gun violence; to give the Averse an element of whimsy even in such brutal matters. Some others would say that that's a Doylist position that doesn't contradict your Watsonian position.

But note the detail: Olaf had to steal the Carmelita. Did he steal from VFD? I think not. One reason is this excerpt from Chapter 9:

. "I'm going to lock all of you in the brig, which is the official seafaring term for Jail." "We know what the brig is," Klaus said. "Then you know it's not a very pleasant place," the villain said. "The previous owner used it to hold traitors captive, and I see no reason to break with tradition."

The idea I have about this dialogue is that the owner already owned a place intended for traitors ... As if that was already part of the submarine's design. It is unlikely that you will create a submarine already thinking there will be several uprisings in the crew, and already create a place to arrest those who revolt if the organization that you are part of is formed by volunteers. However, if your crew is made up of slave laborers, this is more likely. If you stop to think about the means of Carmelita propulsion, you will realize that it was designed to be moved to human labor. In fact, the whole scenario of children being rowing to move the submarine, is very reminiscent of a type of real vessel, called Galley. The wiki explains:

"A galley is a type of ship that is propelled mainly by rowing. The galley is characterized by its long, slender hull, shallow draft and low freeboard (clearance between sea and railing). Virtually all types of galleys had sails that could be used in favorable winds, but human strength was always the primary method of propulsion. Galleys were the warships used by the early Mediterranean naval powers, including the Greeks, Phoenicians and Romans.... It was only in the early 16th century that the modern idea of the galley slave became commonplace. Galley fleets as well as the size of individual vessels increase in size, which required more rowers. ... All major Mediterranean powers sentenced criminals to galley service, but initially only in time of war."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galley

If you've already watched Ben Hur you must remember his scene in a Galley. Well then, the Carmelita was built like a Galley. VFD would not do that. Queequeg's propulsion does not require a large crew, only one captain and two crew members. Did the Carmelita come from the incendiary side of Schism? No. Olaf would not need to steal the Carmelita from the incendiary side. The Netiflix Series left those details aside. They showed that the Carmelita came from members of the incendiary side of Schism, but for this they needed to change the original story. In the books, the Carmelita was stolen by Olaf. He can only have stolen from another organization.

Good analysis. I suspect that Handler wanted Olaf to have such a submarine but wasn't prepared to concoct the kind of in-depth explanation it really required; so he threw out a few general hints which could be interpreted in either direction. There are also implications, which you don't quite touch on, that the submarine has been in his or the villains' possession more generally for quite a while; when explaining how he got such a submarine, in addition to referring to his theft of it, he also alludes to the loan of the sinister duo's "new recruits" as enabling him "to get this submarine working again!" (TGG p. 194) That makes it sound like it's been in his possession for quite a long time, but inoperable owing to insufficient manpower; by extension, this suggests that he did have it working, once. This is hard to square with the events of the series so far, and overall the acquisition and previous use of the submarine seems like a schism-era backstory event. In other words, I don't think this is a recent theft; which undermines the idea that the question mark has specifically been sent to track the octopus submarine down.

I don't think that's a fatal blow for this particular invention, though. It's reasonable to propose that your third organisation is jealous of its ocean territory and patrols against all submarines equally. The question mark's actions definitely point to it being opposed to both sides of the schism; though I would say that's only as a subset of posing a threat to anything which happens to draw too close.

But the right question is: has the animal known as Bombinating Beast been around for a long time, or was it a hangfire creation? Because the statuette that imitates the sound of the Bombinating Beast has been around for a long time, we can conclude that it had existed for a long time. However, Hangfire picked up a rare animal that already existed, and made experiments so that it would get much bigger and much more frightening. The original animal was supposed to be the size of a manatee, so many of Moxie's ancestors did not believe that their ancestor had actually killed a monster, just a manatee. In the same way that legends of giant octopuses arose, there were legends of the giant Bombinating Beast. These legends inspired the evil organization to create its submarines, and inspired Hangfire to come up with a scientific method to increase the size and ferocity of the true Bombinating Beast.

I have a slightly different interpretation of the Bombinating Beast of ATWQ, though it doesn't fundamentally disagree with your premise. As I read it, the natural size of its species is something closer to the size of the tadpole or leech-like creatures Lemony encounters in ?2; but that, with the proper care and especially the proper diet, it's possible for individual members of this species to grow to enormous size and equal ferocity. The legendary Bombinating Beast is such an individual, born in the age of the most dangerous seas when there was little shortage of stray sailors to eat and foolhardy townsfolk to catch; but it was lucky. Hangfire's methodology is intended to control the process and manufacture full-size Bombinating Beasts on demand.

My belief is that Lady Mallahan legitimately slew such a beast; but the extreme improbability of the conditions necessary for one to arise led eventually to the assumption that the Bombinating Beast was a mere legend. After all - if the historical Bombinating Beast was no great shakes, why would an artifact need to be designed to control it? Why Stain'd-by-the-Sea's traditions of the bell to warn of it, the mask to disguise against it?

...Overall, though, it's an interesting and thorough idea of yours, Jean Lucio. The question mark of TGG has been proposed as the vessel of a third organisation in the past; I'm sure I've seen fanfiction along these lines, too. But it's refreshing to see somebody think the premise through. There's nothing in particular to disprove it; the problem is there's no positive evidence to prove it, either. When people try to fill in the gaps in ASoUE, they can only pen their own ideas.

[Optimism is my Phil-osophy]

Thank you Dante. It's amazing to be able to read something like that coming from you. I love to make theories ... My search is not exactly for the truth, it is for the coherence. Being able to count on your help to understand better ASOUE has been a very fun experience. And Fox, your support as always is fundamental to me. About TGU, I have additional evidence, which I would like to write on another Thread. Thank you